Old 08-15-2015, 03:28 AM #5665
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

good religious people are able to appreciate other people, and can be useful for the surrounding environment


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Old 08-16-2015, 10:50 PM #5666
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
And now you're being disrespectful
LAWL - if you thought THAT was disrespectful, it's no wonder you're upset with the rest of the thread

"He's making fun of my ideas about the supernatural!"... okay, so defend your ideas instead of complaining. The tumblr approach will just exacerbate the ridicule.
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Old 08-18-2015, 05:22 PM #5667
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
I'm just shocked that a respectful forum such as this can allow this kind of thread to exist.
You guys may feel that you're discussing the topic but it's more so a place to make fun at it. Especially with the cartoons, gifs and whatever else.

I will ask a mod if it's possible for me to block it somehow so that everyone can be happy.
Religious discussion would happen in this forum with or without this thread, it's a contentious topic that people will vehemently defend. Even the mention of religion is enough to spark a debate. By keeping it all in this one thread it gives everyone an outlet, and it prevents religious discussion from spilling out into other parts of the form. The manure doesn't smell as bad when it's contained to one giant pile

I do agree that most of the gif's and pictures are made to mock others, not to debate. I'll make more of an effort to clean up the ones that don't contribute anything other than pointing fingers and laughing.

It's a frustrating thread because debate is nearly impossible if everyone is coming from a different premise.

There's unfortunately no "mute thread" option, the best option for those who don't want to participate is just to avoid this thread or block the URL with a browser extension.
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:24 AM #5668
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
What is it about evolution that you find non-rational?
According to the presumptions of science, an effect requires an adequate and sufficient cause, and indeed that effect cannot be greater than the cause. But in the case of evolution, the effect of human intelligence is magnitudes (or, exponentially) greater than its supposed cause. The naturalist appears to have adopted a potentially self-defeating posture: He is assuming a trustworthy reasoning process only to conclude that his reasoning is ultimately untrustworthy.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
False. Believing that large striped cat in the shurbs is a danger is a belief that contributes to a species sustainability. A general belief that killing your fellow man is immoral is also a belief that contributes to a species sustainability.

Wrong again. False beliefs don't necessarily hinder a species' survival. They can even have the opposite effect. "birth control is evil!" for example
You're contradicting yourself..

Quote:
2. Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.
3. False Beliefs Illustrate Evolutionary Naturalism’s Epistemological Unreliability.
Are you choosing true beliefs, because you just said naturalistic evolution can promote false beliefs. Are you choosing false beliefs or both? Because you just disagreed with me yet that validates the points.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
truth seekers dont hold any preconceptions, or any opinion that would make it harder to make an objective statement of truth. that is hard enough already. nothing should ever be believed for any reason other than that it is evidently true. if an individual thinks the bible is evidently true, It's my humble opinion that that person has a very low standard of evidence
I continually appreciate your cordial manner.

The Christian message of salvation in Christ is firmly grounded in history. Our knowledge of the past comes from two primary sources, texts and archaeology. When it comes to manuscript evidence for the new testament, we have nearly six-thousand manuscripts by which we are able to reconstruct the originals. And thousands of archeological discoveries from both the old & new testaments period affirm the historical outlook of the bible once again validating the truth that the bible is indeed historically accurate and true.

And for the video, again he points out at a glance contradictions that are taken without context. But the biggest error he makes is at about 17min, proposing that the Christian view is we can earn our salvation with deeds. This is against the core of Christianity.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

I don't know how you can take him seriously when his views on even the core beliefs of Christianity are so warped.
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:29 AM #5669
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
effect cannot be greater than the cause.
Um... Poking someone teetering on the edge of a tall building? rube goldberg machines? Nuclear explosions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
in the case of evolution, the effect of human intelligence is magnitudes (or, exponentially) greater than its supposed cause.
Aw, the old "entropy always increases" nonsense. You clearly haven't made any effort to understand evolution. I'm not going to enact the labor of explaining it here. Your beliefs will denounce it no matter what the science says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're contradicting yourself
No. I gave examples of how evolution can support different beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Are you choosing true beliefs, because you just said naturalistic evolution can promote false beliefs. Are you choosing false beliefs or both? Because you just disagreed with me yet that validates the points.
What are you on about? True according to whom? Evolution can favor both true beliefs and false ones. What point of yours is validated by that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
salvation in Christ is firmly grounded in history.
So you believe the noah flood? You believe people lived to 600 years of age? You believe in talking snakes? You believe the population of the Israelites grew from 70 to several million in a few hundred years? You believe the Israelites wandered the desert for 40 years without leaving a trace? You believe in talking donkeys? You believe long hair can give a man super strength? I could go on all day.
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Old 08-19-2015, 05:41 AM #5670
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Aaah, these discussions are always interesting. I am a Christian, but I'm not one to want to force ppl to believe something, I just like discussing religion or the absence of it in a civilized manner. So for the people who believe that things evolved, can you give me some examples of living things mutating in a way which provides new information and also gives them an advantage? As far as I understand human and all other living things are accumulating small bad mutations which are making things worse not better. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 08-19-2015, 12:25 PM #5671
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Um... Poking someone teetering on the edge of a tall building? rube goldberg machines? Nuclear explosions?

Aw, the old "entropy always increases" nonsense. You clearly haven't made any effort to understand evolution. I'm not going to enact the labor of explaining it here. Your beliefs will denounce it no matter what the science says.
You're ignoring that someone build that building then climbed it, ignoring someone built that machine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
No. I gave examples of how evolution can support different beliefs.

What are you on about? True according to whom? Evolution can favor both true beliefs and false ones. What point of yours is validated by that?
You claimed this statement was false -
Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.

And now you say this.

Quote:
Evolution can favor both true beliefs and false ones.
You're contradicting yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So you believe the noah flood? You believe people lived to 600 years of age? You believe in talking snakes? You believe the population of the Israelites grew from 70 to several million in a few hundred years? You believe the Israelites wandered the desert for 40 years without leaving a trace? You believe in talking donkeys? You believe long hair can give a man super strength? I could go on all day.

I will tell you this for the third time now -

Quote:
Keep in mind that the bible is a collection of documents which came together through time - a long time. Within that collection there is literature which reflects diffenrent genres such as history, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic, letters, etc.
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:20 PM #5672
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Within that collection there is literature which reflects diffenrent genres
HA, okay, so if a historical statement in the bible isn't accurate, you just claim it was "poetry", or "parable".

That's convenient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Quote:
Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.
You're contradicting yourself.
That's not a contradiction. Beliefs (true or otherwise) can be related to a species sustainability, and I've given several examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're ignoring that someone build that building then climbed it, ignoring someone built that machine.
That doesn't matter. The effect was still bigger than the cause.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:30 AM #5673
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
HA, okay, so if a historical statement in the bible isn't accurate, you just claim it was "poetry", or "parable".

That's convenient.

I've already expressed my views on Genesis more than once here. Also be careful, you've been "Appealing to ridicule" more and more lately.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
That's not a contradiction. Beliefs (true or otherwise) can be related to a species sustainability, and I've given several examples.
I'll Break it down for you one more time.

1 TheDukeAnumber1: Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.

2 Cyparagon:False. Believing that large striped cat in the shurbs is a danger is a belief that contributes to a species sustainability. A general belief that killing your fellow man is immoral is also a belief that contributes to a species sustainability.

3 Cyparagon: False beliefs don't necessarily hinder a species' survival. They can even have the opposite effect. "birth control is evil!" for example.

4 TheDukeAnumber1:You're contradicting yourself..

5 Cyparagon:What are you on about? True according to whom? Evolution can favor both true beliefs and false ones. What point of yours is validated by that?

1- I made a statement

2- You claimed it was false

3- You make a statement that's pro "Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs."

4- I let you know you're contradicting yourself.

5- Your confused, then you practically flat out agree with my initial statement.

(1)Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.

(5)Evolution can favor both true beliefs and false ones.


You are contradicting yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
That doesn't matter. The effect was still bigger than the cause.
Why doesn't it matter.
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Old 08-21-2015, 03:37 AM #5674
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.
I agree evolution can explain a species' sustainability. I do NOT agree that evolution has no role in beliefs. Does that clear anything up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
That doesn't matter. The effect was still bigger than the cause.
Why doesn't it matter.
See the second sentence. Your original claim was that "effects can never be bigger than causes." That is demonstrably untrue.

Do you wish to add caveats like "except in the case of plutonium" or similar? Revise your original claim, and we can discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I've already expressed my views on Genesis more than once here.
You're not allowed to make the claim the bible is a historically accurate account of the world, then explain away all the admitted historical inaccuracies as "poetry". That's ridiculous (deserving of ridicule)
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Old 08-21-2015, 03:21 PM #5675
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

lol genesis...

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Old 08-22-2015, 07:08 AM #5676
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

why doesn't VillageIdiot just rename this thread "post your pointless arguments here"

stop arguing about religion people, keep your religion and beliefs to yourself and focus on what the forum was made for: FRICKIN LASERS!!!

this thread has been alive longer than any thread ever made and more replies than any thread on the forums that i know of: its time to let it die peacefully and go to heaven... maybe :3

EDIT: this is stickied! could not tell from the way i got to it... OOPS
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:45 PM #5677
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I agree evolution can explain a species' sustainability. I do NOT agree that evolution has no role in beliefs. Does that clear anything up?
Good enough

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
See the second sentence. Your original claim was that "effects can never be bigger than causes." That is demonstrably untrue.

Do you wish to add caveats like "except in the case of plutonium" or similar? Revise your original claim, and we can discuss.
To build on your earlier example of pushing a man off a building, If I was to push a penny out of orbit to earth, would I not first have to go through the great effort to put it into orbit. Wouldn't it be silly then for me to ignore those great efforts and only acknowledge the point where I push the penny to earth and thereafter?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You're not allowed to make the claim the bible is a historically accurate account of the world, then explain away all the admitted historical inaccuracies as "poetry". That's ridiculous (deserving of ridicule)
It's inconsistent to call others out on logical fallacies then and to openly rely on one. My biggest issue with ridicule though is that it makes no progress towards the truth, it's an attempt to manipulate perception and emotions.


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Originally Posted by micheal rosen View Post
stop arguing about religion people, keep your religion and beliefs to yourself and focus on what the forum was made for: FRICKIN LASERS!!!
Other section.... Religion thread.... feels appropriate to talk about that here. Also...
LINK-> Believe whatever you want, just keep it to yourself!
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Old 08-24-2015, 04:11 AM #5678
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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To build on your earlier example of pushing a man off a building...
How are you responsible for his elevation? You didn't put the man there. You just pushed him off.

Fire a few neutrons at a lump of U235. Is the effect bigger than the cause? Are you responsible for the existence of U235?

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It's inconsistent to call others out on logical fallacies then and to openly rely on one.
Whether I ridicule or not has no bearing on my initial argument. I'll leave out the last sentence if it makes you happy:

You're not allowed to make the claim the bible is a historically accurate account of the world, then explain away all the admitted historical inaccuracies as "poetry".

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stop arguing about religion people
Nobody is forcing you to read the thread. You may leave whenever you wish.
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Old 08-24-2015, 04:50 AM #5679
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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focus on what the forum was made for: FRICKIN LASERS!!!
This is the off-topic section, by definition it doesn't have to be about lasers
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Old 08-24-2015, 05:54 AM #5680
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ARG View Post
This is the off-topic section, by definition it doesn't have to be about lasers
i was saying it more as a joke.

i know this is a whole other section dedicated to not-lasers but i figure its about time people just give up on the whole "arguing about religion" thing. its not good for anybody, and never leads to anything good no matter where it happens. it not that it isnt productive, its that its destructive. this argument, for/against religion has been going on ever since people have had differing opinions on it. that says something about the people who do and don't believe: they are fundamentally different in a way we don't understand. once it has been brought up, if its honestly discussed by both parties, it will always result in an argument. that might say something about religious and non-religious people. i think if people stop arguing, and start agreeing, then maybe we will change in a way that is better than what we were before, whether we beleived or not. a change like this would happen over time, but its worth it.

to quote John Lennon from his song "Imagine":


"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too

Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"


while i disagree about the whole "no religion" thing because there has to be, whether or not it is a spiritual religion, something to keep people's morals, because we all know that laws are sometimes not enough. although, who is to say we cant make it on our own, without a rulebook or moral guide? maybe this change that may happen will let us exist in peace, and on our own? imagine a peaceful world without guidance or subordination, i wonder if anyone can.

How many times has someone famous, someone intelligent, someone powerful said "set aside your/our differences" and nobody has listened? its about time we started facing the real facts, not the "facts" provided by our favourite oldest argument: that a lot of time has been wasted over nothing, and the only thing we can do to save ourselves from this loop is just giving up, accepting our differences, and letting peace be the thing we argue for.

location has no influence on my argument:

Why wage a war that cant be won?

(i kinda rambled here, most of this isn't directed at you ARG, its for anyone)
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