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Old 08-13-2015, 02:34 PM #5649
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
because you've clearly made up your mind without even trying to look for these explanations
This is an incorrect assumption and something you could not possibly know about me. We will never have a meaningful discussion if you dismiss me because you decide that you know my thoughts.

I do not step into discussions with my mind made up, but I do step in knowing my mind.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And the most accurate way to find what is true, is to look at the evidence, and draw conclusions from it. SCIENCE.

YOU, on the other hand, are taking conclusions from the bible, and looking for evidence for it. It's undeniably backwards.

Again, an incorrect assumption about me. I hypothesize the gospel is true, and looking at the evidence I conclude it is true. Sounds like, dare I say it, the scientific method.


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Old 08-13-2015, 03:17 PM #5650
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
This is an incorrect assumption and something you could not possibly know about me.
It's not an assumption; it's been demonstrated by your wording. I only know what you type here - what you tell us. And if you say that evolution cannot explain something (in the face of glaring opposition), you've already made up your mind. If you were OPEN to the notion, you might ask how evolution can explain something.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I hypothesize the gospel is true, and looking at the evidence I conclude it is true. Sounds like, dare I say it, the scientific method.
~2/3 of the planet disagrees with you, many of them also claiming to use science. If we were to categorize your specific view of the gospel as protestant, ~88% of the planet would disagree with you. That's not a good outlook for a scientific consensus. Admittedly, this is a bandwagon argument, but I'd still like to know how your science is better than the rest of the planet's. Why the disparity?

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I hypothesize the gospel is true, and looking at the evidence I conclude it is true.
Would you quit believing in god if there was no evidence? I somehow doubt it.
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Old 08-13-2015, 04:43 PM #5651
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It's not an assumption; it's been demonstrated by your wording. I only know what you type here - what you tell us. And if you say that evolution cannot explain something (in the face of glaring opposition), you've already made up your mind. If you were OPEN to the notion, you might ask how evolution can explain something.
The idea that atheistic, evolutionary naturalism can reliably account for man’s rational faculties and explain how human beings can discover truth faces three potential defeaters.

1. Naturalism Postulates a Nonrational Source for Man’s Rationality.
2. Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.
3. False Beliefs Illustrate Evolutionary Naturalism’s Epistemological Unreliability.

Here is some "glaring opposition", are you open to it?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
~2/3 of the planet disagrees with you, many of them also claiming to use science. If we were to categorize your specific view of the gospel as protestant, ~88% of the planet would disagree with you. That's not a good outlook for a scientific consensus. Admittedly, this is a bandwagon argument, but I'd still like to know how your science is better than the rest of the planet's. Why the disparity?.
As you know truth isn't contingent on the number of believers. The bandwagon argument can be turn against you. That percentage of the world or greater believes in some form of spirituality, greater power, and afterlife. Why the disparity?


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Would you quit believing in god if there was no evidence? I somehow doubt it.
I don't see a purpose to this question other than an attempt to undermine my character/credibility.
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Old 08-13-2015, 05:51 PM #5652
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
1. Naturalism Postulates a Nonrational Source for Man’s Rationality.
What is it about evolution that you find non-rational?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
2. Evolution Promotes a Species’ Survivability, Not Its True Beliefs.
False. Believing that large striped cat in the shurbs is a danger is a belief that contributes to a species sustainability. A general belief that killing your fellow man is immoral is also a belief that contributes to a species sustainability.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
3. False Beliefs Illustrate Evolutionary Naturalism’s Epistemological Unreliability.
Wrong again. False beliefs don't necessarily hinder a species' survival. They can even have the opposite effect. "birth control is evil!" for example.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Why the disparity?
"Some higher power" is a meager attempt to group everyone together. There are arguably as many versions of god as there are people. The number of possible gods is infinite. How are you so sure you've chosen the right one?

I'm not the one making the claim of a higher power. You are.

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I don't see a purpose to this question other than an attempt to undermine my character/credibility.
No. It's an attempt to illustrate that your belief is independent of your evidential findings.

Would you still believe in god even if you didn't find any evidence?
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:31 PM #5653
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

After having read and reread the most recent back and forth posts I have drawn some conclusions which are undeniably correct from any possible worldview that might be held by any human being who by chance shares the same worldview as myself and no others.

1) TheDukeAnumber1 has, though millennia of natural selection at work, evolved with the perspective that some sort of God exists along with a natural instincts to maximize survivability of the human race by holding fast to his beliefs and attempting to convince others of the same, while also seeking to improve his own understanding of the nature of this God. The outcome of various chemical processes, no matter how unlikely it may seem, is that he has come to believe statement #2.

2) Cyparagon, in an indeterminable amount of time, was created by God and given a soul with the seeds of truth and a conscience which deep down accepts God's existence, but also has a tendency to reject faith and attempt to extinguish that of others because God wishes to test their steadfastness. Or, alternatively, he has been deceived by the Enemy of all mankind into believing statement #1 and has decided to play along because of the temporary pleasure that comes with doing said Enemy's bidding.

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Old 08-13-2015, 11:56 PM #5654
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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With "we make it up as we go, everything is relative" as a base then when is any atheist justified rebuking someone else for what they believe, or what makes them doing what why feel is good,... "good". Aren't all of those interactions then just a practice of forcing ones will on each other?

My beliefs in an absolute moral framework aren't derived from my preferences or wants, it's because I'm after what is true.
if the bible is false, the same could be said of its moral framework, that it is made up and just one person forcing their will on another. I'm of the opinion this is the case. the big difference with what I said is consensus. sure an individual can decide for themselves what is right an wrong but if that goes against the magority view at the time, how long will that work out? occasionally one person is right and many are wrong, sometimes visa versa. when I study history, I see these things again and again.

truth seekers dont hold any preconceptions, or any opinion that would make it harder to make an objective statement of truth. that is hard enough already. nothing should ever be believed for any reason other than that it is evidently true. if an individual thinks the bible is evidently true, It's my humble opinion that that person has a very low standard of evidence

his latest, unrelated to my statement
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Old 08-14-2015, 06:52 AM #5655
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What I have a hard time understanding is how you guys can repeat yourselves over and over again about the same thing in this thread.
Rep? Post count? Alzheimer's?
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Old 08-14-2015, 07:22 AM #5656
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What I have a hard time understanding is how you guys can repeat yourselves over and over again about the same thing in this thread.
Rep? Post count? Alzheimer's?
No it's not those things, although we can't rule out Alzheimer's. It is just two opposing viewpoints, when someone genuinely believes something to be true, they won't easily compromise or change their mind, and in fact both sides can't be right, and both sides will try to convince the other that they are right. Sort of like liberals and conservatives.

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Old 08-14-2015, 11:49 AM #5657
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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What I have a hard time understanding is how you guys can repeat yourselves over and over again about the same thing in this thread.
Rep? Post count? Alzheimer's?
Alan is correct.

You are simplifying the conversation to "the same thing", albeit its actually about aspects of the topic of religion.

If you lump it all into "talking about religion", it misses the actual points being made.

One could wander into the forum in general, and wonder how we can say the same stuff about lasers for years over and over again.

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Old 08-14-2015, 11:56 AM #5658
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by KrowBar View Post
After having read and reread the most recent back and forth posts I have drawn some conclusions which are undeniably correct from any possible worldview that might be held by any human being who by chance shares the same worldview as myself and no others.

1) TheDukeAnumber1 has, though millennia of natural selection at work, evolved with the perspective that some sort of God exists along with a natural instincts to maximize survivability of the human race by holding fast to his beliefs and attempting to convince others of the same, while also seeking to improve his own understanding of the nature of this God. The outcome of various chemical processes, no matter how unlikely it may seem, is that he has come to believe statement #2.

2) Cyparagon, in an indeterminable amount of time, was created by God and given a soul with the seeds of truth and a conscience which deep down accepts God's existence, but also has a tendency to reject faith and attempt to extinguish that of others because God wishes to test their steadfastness. Or, alternatively, he has been deceived by the Enemy of all mankind into believing statement #1 and has decided to play along because of the temporary pleasure that comes with doing said Enemy's bidding.
LOL

I assume this is essentially a paste from a source meant to evoke a laugh?

Statement #2?

Where is that? (The second conclusion?)




Your intro, which sounds like a Colbert dialogue, says the conclusions are undeniable by those who agree with them, etc.

That's pretty funny, really.


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Old 08-14-2015, 12:19 PM #5659
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
No it's not those things, although we can't rule out Alzheimer's. It is just two opposing viewpoints, when someone genuinely believes something to be true, they won't easily compromise or change their mind, and in fact both sides can't be right, and both sides will try to convince the other that they are right. Sort of like liberals and conservatives.

Alan


The liberal/conservative example is excellent.

For example, people who study the climate, with no vested interest, as opposed to weather, etc, have concluded with a very high degree of certainty that the world's climate is changing, and that some areas will get wetter/drier/hotter/colder than they used to be, and, that a large percentage of that change is due to mankind's contributions.

Normally, a topic such as this would be a simple scientific matter, and the information would be used to make appropriate adjustments, etc.

When a vested interest is involved, one that has political clout, such as big oil, etc, they do not want this view point to spread, as coal fired power plants for example are then vulnerable.

If they can spread the opinion that people cannot POSSIBLY hurt the earth, that the earth is so big and resilient that it is immune to anything puny man could do to it, then spilling millions of gallons of oil into the ocean, or tons of greenhouse gases from emissions, is simply ok.

OK = more $ for big oil, etc.


So, a politician holds up a snow ball and says it proves there's no "global warming", and he gets a check from big oil, etc. He's doing what they asked him to, and, they are lining his pockets in thanks.

Multiply that by the number of people who then BELIEVE what the politicians said, because they identify with the party stance, and don't tend to do real research, especially when they don't have the resources/background...

...and it goes from well respected and accepted scientific knowledge, to a political issue.


Just as most groups tend to lump characteristics for OTHER groups together...so lesbians wear Birkenstocks, liberals eat granola, etc....

...even a stand on a scientific information becomes part of "the party line".



So, some liberals accept global climate change as fact, with no information other than that's what their sources told them, and some conservatives deny it based upon the exact same mechanism.

Its not a scientific debate really, as the involved parties do not understand the statistics or science involved, and, they tend to simply quote the cherry picked sources each "side" used to base its claims upon.


The problem is that the science itself is sound....but, the vast majority of people on both sides of the "argument" are not in a position to judge it....


...so they are BOTH arguing from a simple need to support "their side's opinion".


This is quite analogous to the religious debate here.


Each side tends to have a need to defend their position, and they inherited or independently deduced their opinion based upon their environment.

It is actually rare for an atheist to have had atheist parents for example. Most were raised in a religious family....and later concluded that their parents were wrong.

It is also rare, in contrast for a religious person to believe in a different religion than the one he was raised in. They tend to conclude their parents were right, or, more commonly, never question if they were right or not.

The rarity might be proportional.

So the kid who decides his parents were wrong might decide a different christian religion is more accurate, or that the Muslims got it right, or the Jews, or the Hindus or the atheists.



Last edited by Teej; 08-14-2015 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 08-14-2015, 12:31 PM #5660
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I want to clarify evolution a bit, its been bandied about a bit recklessly.


It doesn't REQUIRE being mean, violent, etc....


ALL evolution actually means is that genes that are passed along survive....and those that don't, don't.


When man started with agriculture and animal husbandry, well before genes were understood, man understood that, generally, taller parents tended to have taller kids....cows that gave more milk tended to have offspring that gave more milk, and so forth.


Its that simple.


The effects are visible in mere generations, and in relatively short time frames, we can breed a wolf that looks like a Great Dane, Poodle or a Chihuahua.


What the issue is, for some people, is understanding that this VISIBLE process simply can continue.


So an amoeba doesn't give birth to a fish...it just progressively is a very different amoeba...until its so unlike the other amoeba that its not an amoeba....over many millennia.

The creationists are unable to grasp that time, on a scale they cannot see, accounts for the process they therefore cannot watch happen.
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:51 PM #5661
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You are simplifying the conversation to "the same thing"
Isn't it though? You guys are repeating yourselves plain and simple. I try not to be a complainer but I'm really tired of seeing this thread virtually show up on every screen.
Sorry if I sound mean but I'm sure there are plenty of religious/atheist forums out there for you guys to jump all over.
If you feel you have to vent your frustrations about religion or otherwise your whole world would fall a part then I suggest a therapist
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:25 PM #5662
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Isn't it though? You guys are repeating yourselves plain and simple. I try not to be a complainer but I'm really tired of seeing this thread virtually show up on every screen.
Sorry if I sound mean but I'm sure there are plenty of religious/atheist forums out there for you guys to jump all over.
If you feel you have to vent your frustrations about religion or otherwise your whole world would fall a part then I suggest a therapist
LOL

So you have no interest in discussing the details, and, don't want anyone else to either?



Its a thread in this forum....I do believe its possible to not click on it though, have you tried that?

I think not clicking on things you don't want to read, is a way to not have to read them....it works for me at least.

You could at least try it out as a technique, and see if it also works for you?
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:57 PM #5663
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL

I assume this is essentially a paste from a source meant to evoke a laugh?

Statement #2?

Where is that? (The second conclusion?)




Your intro, which sounds like a Colbert dialogue, says the conclusions are undeniable by those who agree with them, etc.

That's pretty funny, really.



That's an original piece there - but you are correct in that it's intended to get a laugh and to make people think. I get amused by the passion with which some people try to convince others of their belief system. I think we all want some validation, but instead of arguing that it is reasonable to have certain beliefs, people tend to argue that their beliefs are better than, or more "true" than someone else's. I think it's reasonable for someone to believe in creation and God, but it's also reasonable for someone to believe that we are chance products of a very complex and chaotic, maybe even random, physical system. I also think it's reasonable to believe in a combination of the two or something else entirely. If you want to convince someone of something, or engage in (what I would call) a productive argument or dialogue, I can't help but think that adopting the stance that the other party's position is unreasonable is a waste of time except when the position has been adopted hastily and without significant consideration (not the case for many when it comes to religion and politics where people tend to be deeply entrenched). Using reason to convince someone their faith is unreasonable is probably about as effective as trying to share faith in something spiritual without the aid of the spiritual force you have faith in.

And yes, statement 2 referred to the paragraph following the "2)". I didn't make it clear that my conclusions were to be presented as 2 numbered 'statements' and may have used that word differently than expected.

Last edited by KrowBar; 08-14-2015 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:25 AM #5664
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

So you have no interest in discussing the details, and, don't want anyone else to either?



Its a thread in this forum....I do believe its possible to not click on it though, have you tried that?

I think not clicking on things you don't want to read, is a way to not have to read them....it works for me at least.

You could at least try it out as a technique, and see if it also works for you?
And now you're being disrespectful which is uncalled for. You're so used to laughing at others beliefs that you end up acting in an uncivilized manner.
If you actually analyzed my post properly you would have understood that I see this thread show up constantly regardless of clicking on it and reading the content. I just learned that I can unsubscribe to this thread and am doing so right after I post this.

I'm just shocked that a respectful forum such as this can allow this kind of thread to exist.
You guys may feel that you're discussing the topic but it's more so a place to make fun at it. Especially with the cartoons, gifs and whatever else.

I will ask a mod if it's possible for me to block it somehow so that everyone can be happy.
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