Old 06-28-2015, 04:55 PM #5617
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Actually this is from post one on this thread:


NUMBER ONE RULE: DO NOT challenge other members' beliefs in this thread. You are free to comment, but you know when it's stepping out of line.

This thread started as a poll. Not a debate. So, no I wouldn't say it's the topic of this section.

I would agree though that if someone can't bear to see the sight of opposing views they shouldn't follow a post that is as polarized as this one. But don't be blind to the fact that, yes, badgering does occur on this thread.

It was my mistake by asking not to badger those who do believe without also requesting that those who do believe (in whatever not just the Christian God) not to badger anyone else.



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Old 06-28-2015, 05:04 PM #5618
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I can be happy with or without life after death, that's not it for me, for me it's the amount of evidence which supports this as the reality, that consciousness is primary in the universe, the physical secondary. I can lead you down a path to help show all of this but it would take a lot of my time and energy. That, and for someone who prefers their world view as it is, it's useless to do so, there is never enough evidence for someone with their mind made up to the contrary to be able to change it. Besides, I don't believe it matters what someone does or does not believe in regard to any of this, the important things in life we need are happening with or without such beliefs, all is well in that regard, one way or another life unfolds properly for each of us, regardless of a belief in God, belief in life after death or not. Accepting or denying just doesn't matter in the long run, life goes on. The best advice I can give regarding these matters is to know thyself.

I find some of this interesting, but I don't want to debate the strong or weak points, it won't make any difference for me anyway and anyone who wants to attack it won't learn anything from it either. Take some time and watch this with an open mind, don't worry, I've never known anyone to have their brains fall out by keeping an open mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yosn_GHYiR4

For those who are steadfastly centered in science being the end all answer to what is real, or isn't, the sad reality is our science has not progressed enough to get anywhere close at proving spiritual realities, except perhaps quantum physics, but there are camps on both side of the fence regarding that too. If you are unwilling to accept that our mainstream science has not progressed far enough to prove out a spiritual reality, sorry, but that's why it is unable to do so.

My brain didn't fall out, which is good, because I'd have no consciousness.



So, from what I gather from those who want there to be consciousness without a brain...they have zero actual evidence except that they want it to be so...and twisting of data until it screams in protest at unfair use.


In (real) brain studies, the (real) evidence shows that as you destroy parts of the brain, you destroy parts of consciousness that that part of the brain is responsible for.

If you destroy all of the brain, therefore, you've destroyed ALL of the consciousness.


If you think that there is some sort of supernatural part of you that exists independently of your physical presence, that's a belief in a supernatural presence....not a scientific belief.


Science is not a substitute for religion. Science is a search for truth, using a process called the scientific method. If religion, or a belief system is true, science would support it, and, if science were true, that religion would support it.

IE: They are two different things, and, most people have some of both in their lives.

If you don't "believe in science", you can't be reading this post...as it took an incredible amount of science to make it possible for you to do so.

Science works.

Science as a religion makes no sense though. Science is a process, not a belief system. Sure, you may believe what science finds, within your abilities to comprehend it....but, as its a process, you are free to believe what makes sense, and to reject that which does not....without "Not believing in science".

IE: A guy can say another guy made a mistake in an equation, but it doesn't mean he "doesn't believe in math".


There is such a thing as junk science though, and, unfortunately, some can't tell the difference between junk and real science.

To make it further complicated, especially for new concepts or ideas, some real science IS mislabeled.

The difference between junk science, such as after death consciousness, and real science, is that one is LABELED as junk, as it will have obvious mistakes in structural issues, and one is simply labeled as questionable due to disagreement on interpretation.

This is similar to logic. A statement can be logically sound, and not have a structural defect, but come to an incorrect conclusion...

...or be structurally unsound, and come to a an incorrect conclusion.

The junk science has structural problems that flag it.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:02 PM #5619
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Javalin View Post
Actually this is from post one on this thread:


NUMBER ONE RULE: DO NOT challenge other members' beliefs in this thread. You are free to comment, but you know when it's stepping out of line.

This thread started as a poll. Not a debate. So, no I wouldn't say it's the topic of this section.

I would agree though that if someone can't bear to see the sight of opposing views they shouldn't follow a post that is as polarized as this one. But don't be blind to the fact that, yes, badgering does occur on this thread.

It was my mistake by asking not to badger those who do believe without also requesting that those who do believe (in whatever not just the Christian God) not to badger anyone else.


Fundamentally, if we are all saying what we believe and why, unless we all believe the same thing, what each of us believes, and why, will tend to be in conflict with what someone else believes.

If a Muslim posts that he believes that unless you believe in Allah, you are going to hell/not going to heaven...there are sure to be some Christians who feel that is an attack upon their belief system.

Its not badgering them though, because the entire thread is simply for doing that.

Its a wonderful thread actually, because we DO see a huge range of beliefs, and, every one is saying what they believe....and everyone else gets to learn from that.

You never know what you'll find out/discover unless you ARE exposed to dissenting opinions. Sure, you will tend to dismiss most of it, but, it like watching the discover channel....you may not watch some natives leap from trees with vines on their ankles to break their fall, to prove their manhood, and decide that its a great idea, but, you at least understand their culture, and what's important to them, etc.

What you might consider a whackadoodle worldview might BE someone else's actual worldview.

YOUR worldview might be someone else's idea of whackadoodle as well, and so forth.

If I say I don't think there's a god, because XYZ....and someone else says there is because of ABC....that's not badgering anymore than the reverse would be....

...its called "discussion".


Religion is fascinating BECAUSE of the varied interpretations and view points.

Even those that say they believe the same thing are all different from each other...as they have what they culturally identify with, combined with what they actually believe...and they have to mesh them together.

Many don't do that UNTIL this sort of discussion triggers a need to do it.

Its a very interesting process to wrestle with beliefs.



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Old 06-28-2015, 08:02 PM #5620
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej

That video just presented evidence of individuals who are for all practical purposes without what we would consider the needed amount of brain to much if any awareness at all, let alone a successful and otherwise thought of as completely normal student, yet you completely reject it. That is what I mean by evidence doesn't matter, if you are set in your thinking, you are set in it, but it doesn't matter, what we believe or not changes nothing in regard to nature.... I don't mean to say that having a limited point of view is bad, it's part of being human and unavoidable, as I am sure you well realize, I'm set in my own thinking too, but in a different way. I believe we are beginning to get a hint at how the brain works through room temperature quantum computing within our brains through what are just now being researched; micro tubules in the brain, that they are the interface between a larger conscious self outside of our brains.

I believe our science is far less evolved than we like to think it is but that is a given, each generation adds in areas we had prior no clue about. Want your mind blown? If it hasn't already been through your own searching, this blows mine; the whole universe is to the observable universe, as the observable universe is to an atom. Want to watch a you tube movie about it?


Watch that and then ponder this:

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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 06-29-2015, 02:45 AM #5621
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

REAL evidence DEFINITELY matters.

I am VERY open minded, but, also, require evidence to reach at least minimum quality standards.

Showing a picture of the universe and a picture of a neuron, and noticing how similar they are, but not also showing certain river deltas or tree limbs or roots and lung tissue or filamentous mold growth, and so on, can also produce analogous patterns.

IE: Finding a picture that looks like something is not proof that they are the same thing.

Its not even evidence that they are potentially the the same thing...unless the context matters.

So, if you think how a nerve grows, or a tree root, etc....you can see WHY it looks like it does.

If you look at the galaxies, and why they look as THEY do...there is no connection to CONSCIOUSNESS.


You call it evidence, just as creationists point to a text book picture of a molecule that looks like a cross, and say it means that god is telling them that he is there in that molecule.


The LEAP the speaker makes from correlations to causation and assumptions that don't follow the premises established is technobabble.


Just because it would be really really cool if the universe WERE a conscious entity....doesn't mean it IS.

Just because some really bad science says it IS conscious, doesn't mean it ISN'T either...it just means its not for the reasons they SAY it is.


So, I'm not saying the premise is wrong, or right...all I'm saying is that's the wrong set of arguments, and, its not valid evidence.


The bible thumpers quote the bible, and then tell me they GAVE evidence, but I rejected it.

This is an analogous scenario.


Its not as though I don't understand your need to believe, its just that your standards of evidence don't prove compelling...so I'll believe differently unless truly compelling evidence appears.

IE: Until we find out that what we think is NOT in our heads...or anywhere in our body, ALL current evidence points to what we think as ONLY existing somewhere within us....with the brain being the best place to look, given that as we take parts of the brain, we lose the ability TO think.

I am 100% sure that the brain IS influenced by external stimuli, including from wee beasties living in our guts, pheromones, etc...and that hormones, the endocrine and other systems also influence how we feel and act....

...but because there's very good evidence that that is happening, and, some of the mechanisms are becoming understood.


The problem is when you want to live forever by not needing your physical presence to continue to exist. If you are digitized, etc...I don't count that in THIS context....but perhaps consider it your plan B?




I am certain that death is the end. I will die, and, no longer exist. I am not looking forward to that, at least not yet. Maybe when I'm 150 and not enjoying life, I'll be ready. Until then, I will live.

I HOPE to see people advance to the point where we can colonize the cosmos, and see as far as we can see. Earth has a limited life span...and, it is short sighted to ignore that. MOVING is an enormous adventure, one that requires a LONG time to facilitate. WE all need to focus on that...now...because it WILL take that long to figure out and put into motion. We need to be out of Dodge before its too late.

EVERYTHING that poisons that objective is a problem. Ignorance, prejudice, selfish partisan politics, bad science diluting vital knowledge, all are potential poisons that will mean the extinction of humanity.

I want to help avoid the extinction of humanity....even if you think it will be fine because we'll just all be floating through space and time in a big ball of consciousness and therefore be immortal....I want Plan A to be assuming our physical parts will need to make it.

That's my plan at least.

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Old 06-29-2015, 03:06 AM #5622
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We live in a fractal reality, that is what I take from the two photo's, but nothing new there. However, if you expound upon that idea in regard to consciousness there my good man, you have some very deep implications of a kind of over soul for all conscious beings.

Take a look at this, last year I posted about this subject and was quickly nay say'ed that our brains could derive something from the quantum level, now I find there is proof:

Edit: This link is easier to read: https://earthchangesmedia.wordpress....consciousness/

This means we very well may be drawing from something on the quantum level, each of us, within the cells of our brains and that our consciousness is derived from a finer level of reality than the meat inside our heads alone, so to speak. This also has implications for the possibility of the existence of what is called a "soul", since at the quantum level things can be timeless along with the reality of entanglement, we very well may individually have what some call souls, there are mechanisms for this kind of thing being real within science I can explore with you if you like. For myself, I see this as part of hard physics which we are just now touching upon within science.

Maybe better to read or watch some of Stuart Hameroff's stuff, he explains the ideas well, here's his web site: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org

There was a time I rejected all of this along with religion, but not today... well, except I still have a dislike of organized religion, so that didn't change, but for what I can see, there is a deeper reality and consciousness can last forever, that there can be an afterlife, but I have little belief the afterlife has much to do with religion as they lead people to believe they have a monopoly upon, scaring people in regard to hell and heaven if you are bad or good/don't give them your money, or allow their control over you. Upon the death of the body I think we all are released to the universe at large to continue our journey, often joining with those of like mind we feel the most comfortable to be with, in many ways just like we already do here in the physical matter reality.

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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 06-29-2015, 11:42 AM #5623
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Notice the tubes are IN the brain?

Notice that the consciousness referred to is not cosmic, but in a microtube?

Notice that the 20 year earlier article, and this one, still don't have any evidence that consciousness and quantum mechanics are thinked, other than a " I wonder if that might be so" sort of connection?

Quantum mechanics are at play in every cell of your body...that doesn't make your fingernail conscious per se.

Even if your fingernail IS conscious, that would make an earthworm conscious, and an amoeba or virus, etc.

At that point, you would step back and ask how meaningful that is.

Every virus that ever replicated is still around? And how conscious can a virus BE? What is it conscious OF?



Or would it be more along the lines of there being quantum effects, but, that they exist when the brain HAS microtubes, but when those are destroyed, they no longer exist?

Its not much of a leap from "Hey, something we don't know everything about, it must be god", to "Hey, something we don't know everything about, it must be cosmic consciousness".

The CONNECTION between these things and what we accept consciousness to mean is what's missing. So far, its ALL gap jumping...there's a gap, and a leap.

For example, lets say there is quantum entanglement between parts of the brain...and the brain is a quantum computer. (A leap in of itself...but lets go with it as its not impossible at least)

That means we have spin up down information for example. It DOESN'T mean that THAT is consciousness, even though the term used is "information". If you mean that after we die, some spins will change somewhere...OK, its not impossible, but, its not the same as consciousness. The leap is that those spins are consciousness, and, that all the spins CONTINUE their entanglement for ever....in coordination with each other...and, those spin states can flow backwards through time.

That's where the leap becomes unsupportable even if the standard is merely not being impossible.

The desperate leap requires the word "information", meaning spin direction, to change to mean "consciousness". All the assorted literature and video support I've seen, including your links, make that particular leap.

When people became aware of electricity, some immediately wondered if it were "the spark of life", etc...and we end up with stories about cadavers with neck bolts being reanimated with the new force "electricity".

When nuclear forces and mutations were discovered, the same sort of story evolved, and we have Godzilla, etc.

When quantum forces were discovered, once again, people's imaginations wondered what IT might "do", and plugged things in...

So, right now, we have quantum neck bolts being installed on consciousness.




Consider the impetus for the anesthesiologist to dabble in physics - He notices that sleeping people still have brain waves. To me, that means that they are not brain dead. He says that the people have the brain waves when unconscious, and that they have no recollection of being out, etc.

So, they were NOT CONSCIOUS...

...he then postulates that some part of their brain was working when they were NOT conscious, but, that THAT part WAS THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS.

He THEN leaps at quantum effects in microtubes, and says out of the blue that the part of your brain that was present when unconscious was your consciousness...and its connected to the universe by your microtubes, and, it exists even with no microtubes.

Its not a supported argument. Its more of a "Hey, what if..."


They confuse the known ability for brain tissue to "learn new tasks", so that a part of the brain normally used to smell or taste can be used to receive/process sound or light, etc....a person with a stroke can bypass the brain damage and learn to walk or talk again, etc, and, they take some information about "people with no brains", mix them together, and take Dr Lorber's off hand comment about one patient, that a newspaper article had confused with another patient, and presented it as scientific fact that someone with only a brain stem was an honor student....and so forth.

The parts I agree with are that the brain does process much of what we might consider to be thought in what we might consider to be the sub-conscious...and what we call the conscious mind is really where the aware part of us gets the signals interpreted. IE: The "conscious" is simply where we become aware of what the brain came up with.

This would be analogous to the eye "seeing" the laser on the table, sending the received signals to the brain via known neural pathways...the brain using its combination of memory and interpretation to analyze the received data, and say, "hmmm, a laser on a table!"...but, then, something needs to happen to make 'us' aware of that.

Most consider THAT consciousness, the part we are aware of. So, even if there are quantum computations going on in our heads or livers or whatever...we STILL need a mechanism to PERCEIVE them...or, they go unused.





My own personal belief about the universe you can make fun of/tear holes in, as I don't have enough evidence to fully support it, is that matter and energy are interchangeable, and, buoyant in space-time.

I think if you have space-time, a photon/parts for example, might pop up because they appear when nothing's there...like an inflatable ball popping up after you've pushed it under the water. (Without it having been a ball when underwater?)

I think there are still undiscovered/understood particles/energy that are flowing past us, and some unexplained forces, etc, could be related to the equivalent of charges imposed by that....analogous to rubbing a balloon all in one direction, and it then having a static electric charge.


Matter and energy, space and time, would therefore have always existed, and, cannot stop existing. There can be no beginning to time, or end. There can be no beginning or end to space...as for both, there would always be what came before, or after, or is beyond, etc. No boundaries or limits can exist.

If there was a "Big Bang", I would think that there are an infinite number of them happening right now, somewhere...as what we can detect, even millions of light years away, is still infinitesimally small compared to the INFINITE space, and, INFINITE time, for this to occur elsewhere out there well beyond our capacity to detect them.


Those would be MY equivalent of an unsupported idea...the difference is that I KNOW its unsupported, and, I don't try to tell people its The Truth or insist they agree with me....as I know I don't have compelling evidence.

If a physisist effectively explained why the ideas are impossible, I WOULD shelf them...as I don't need them to be the case to go on with my life, and I don't have delusions that I understand physics better than physicists. (The way some anesthesiologists or psychologists might for example)


IE: I can let go of unsupported ideas if I discover they ARE unsupportable.


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Old 06-29-2015, 04:22 PM #5624
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I know you're not keen on analogies, so I'll try to elaborate.

Both you and a battered spouse accept their situation because they believe the perpetrator is inherently good, no matter what he does.

You had a good day.
--->PRAISE JESUS.
Your mother survives a car accident unscathed. Sure her car is gone, but god spared her!
--->PRAISE JESUS.
Your mother survives a car accident with paralysis from the neck down. Sure her car is gone and she'll never walk again, but god spared her life so she may be with you!
--->PRAISE JESUS.
Your mother dies in a car accident. She is now in a better place!
--->PRAISE JESUS.

God can do no wrong, just like an abusive spouse.

It's just weird how you'll study scripture, then in the next breath say "we can't understand an omnipotent being."
We understand what has been revealed to us Cyp.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

God is not like an abusive spouse, I don't like the analogy because it's misleading and inaccurate, explaining it doesn't resolve that. You seem to have a theological issue with God, I would be able to discuss and respond better if you would clearly state your issue without the analogies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The problem is that studies of the brain show that selective destruction of parts of the brain destroys specific parts of our consciousness. Self awareness, memories, sight, hearing, touch, balance, reasoning, types of thought processes, and so forth.

So, your brain is YOU essentially. Your personality, the way you think, your sense of humor, etc, is dictated by your brain.

Reasons To Believe : The Distinctive Human Self

The case is still open for humans to exist as more than a physical body.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
Yes. Sheep. Exactly.
Sheep indeed.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:38 PM #5625
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
We understand what has been revealed to us Cyp.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

God is not like an abusive spouse, I don't like the analogy because it's misleading and inaccurate, explaining it doesn't resolve that. You seem to have a theological issue with God, I would be able to discuss and respond better if you would clearly state your issue without the analogies.





Reasons To Believe : The Distinctive Human Self

The case is still open for humans to exist as more than a physical body.




Sheep indeed.
Adam4d.com - I?m happy to be a sheep

An article in a magazine dedicated to giving reasons to believe, that quotes unsupported evidence that humans exist outside of their bodies, is not that convincing, especially if you read the article and "evidence".





I have not heard that sheep can be happy, but its not impossible at least....and, I HAVE heard that clams are quite happy, albeit the reasons are a bit vague.

I'm not sure why the expression "Happy as a Clam" is more popular than "I'm as happy as a Sheep"....having not heard a sheep version.

Mostly, sheep are lead. Typically, to slaughter, or, to be fleeced.

So, sure they ARE dependent upon a shepherd, but, that shepherd is who leads them to the slaughter and/or to be fleeced.


Shepherds do NOT exist to care for sheep because they love sheep...they exist to make sure the sheep supply them with meat or wool. The sheep support the shepherd.


The sheep may THINK the shepherd is "taking care of them"...in that, superficially, he is....so that he can eat them or wear them, or sell them or parts of them, etc.






The REALITY is that there were sheep before man domesticated them.

WILD SHEEP do just fine, and, are smarter and quite capable of taking care of themselves compared to domesticated sheep.


So, you can enjoy being a domesticated sheep because you think of yourself as stupid and unable to take care of yourself. If the idea of being a WILD sheep is too scary, sure, I get it....allow yourself to be fleeced and/or eaten, and, you are happy to be lead around where the shepherd wants you to be fleeced or slaughtered, etc...because you feel you are so helpless that that fate is better than falling off a cliff.

A wild sheep might be willing to RISK falling off a cliff, if it meant BEING FREE.


Food for thought if you can get the wool pulled back from your eyes.


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Old 06-29-2015, 04:49 PM #5626
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I HAVE heard that clams are quite happy, albeit the reasons are a bit vague.

I'm not sure why the expression "Happy as a Clam" is more popular than "I'm as happy as a Sheep"
Clams always have such a big smile.

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Old 06-29-2015, 05:21 PM #5627
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
An article in a magazine dedicated to giving reasons to believe, that quotes unsupported evidence that humans exist outside of their bodies, is not that convincing, especially if you read the article and "evidence".
Really... you plowed through that article and these

Quote:
References

John C. Eccles, Evolution of the Brain: Creation of the Self (London and New York: Routledge, 1989), 224.
Karl R. Popper and John C. Eccles, The Self and Its Brain (Berlin, Heidelberg, London, New York: Springer-Verlag International, 1977), 120.
Eccles, ibid, 201.
T. Dobzhansky, The Biology of Ultimate Concern (New York: The New American Library, 1967).
Eccles, ibid, 71.
Joseph W. Poulshock, “Language-Wonder: Theory, Pedagogy, and Research,” Christ and the World, the Journal of Tokyo Christian University, 8 (1998).
John Searle, Minds, Brains and Science, (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1984), 13.
Searle, ibid, 26.
William A. Dembski, “Are We Spiritual Machines?” First Things, 96 (1999), 25-31.
Bruce L. Miller, “Finding One’s Self”, Presented at the American Academy of Neurology, 53rd Annual Meeting, Philadelphia, PA, May 5-11, 2001.
Popper and Eccles, ibid, 178-193.
C. D. L. Wynne, “The Soul of the Ape”, American Scientist, 89 (2001), 120-122.
Bas Kast, “Decisions, Decisions...,” Nature, 411(2001), 126-128.
Karl R. Popper, Knowledge and the Body-Mind Problem: In Defence of Interaction, (London and New York: Routledge, 1994), 115.
Gordon d. Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God, Ch. 12, (Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1996).
Charles C. Ryrie, The Holy Spirit, Ch. 13, (Chicago, Illinois: Moody Press, 1997).
Watchman Nee, Spiritual Knowledge, (New York: Christian Fellowship Publishers, 1973), 85.
Watchman Nee, The Spiritual Man, (New York: Christian Fellowship Publishers, 1968).
Henry Margenau, The Miracle of Existence, (Woodbridge, Connecticutt: Ox Bow Press, 1984).
Roger Penrose, Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness, (Oxford, New York, Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1994).
John C. Eccles, “Do Mental Events Cause Neural Events Analogously to the Probability Fields of Quantum Mechanics?” Proc. Royal Soc. Lond. (Biol), 227 (1986), 411-428.
Wade G. Regehr and Charles F. Stevens, “Physiology of Synaptic Transmission and Short Term Plasticity,” Synapses, Eds. W. Maxwell Cowan, Thomas C. Sudhof and Charles F. Stevens, (Baltimore, Maryland: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001).
Eccles, ibid, 237.
Jeffrey M. Schwartz and Sharon Begley, The Mind and the Brain, Ch. 7-8, (New York: Harper Collins Publishers, 2002).
William A. Dembski, “The Act of Creation: Bridging Transcendence and Immanence,” Presented at Millstatt Forum, Strasbourg, France, August 10, 1998.
Eccles, ibid, 241.
that quickly to know it's all "unsupported evidence"
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:49 PM #5628
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Really... you plowed through that article and these



that quickly to know it's all "unsupported evidence"
I cheated by having seen all of them before, plus a lot you didn't link to.

Notice there are quite a few fewer authors than references, as most are the same people over and over again...or, people quoting those people over and over again....and then those people being quoted, and so forth.

IE: Look up Penrose, Eccles, Dembski, and Popper, etc....and they just parrot the same stuff.

Many are actually referring to the same information, so it does save some time in case you actually decide to read them. If you actually read them, you'd see that they are popular links in other articles of that genre, and, that all are used in the same leap process.

IE: Some known information, some new research, but referred to as if it supports the ideology of interest, which, under review, it doesn't.

Plasticity for example is something I already mentioned, and which doesn't mean out of body consciousness, but DOES indicate the ability for brain tissue to be adapted to new roles as needed.






I googled "smiling sheep" to get a pic to go with the happy as a clam thing...


This is what came up first actually, but, I thought the one above next to that one was more obviously smiling.



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Old 06-30-2015, 02:08 PM #5629
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Interesting series of studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0622181857.htm


There were some previous studies that indicated that conservatives tended to be fear driven relative to liberals (Not being afraid, but driven by defensive motives, etc), and these studies indicate that conservative far outperform liberals in many tasks, as long as they believe that the tasks are within their own control.

(Which makes perfect sense)

The liberals were slower and quit tasks sooner if they felt the outcomes were controlled, but outperformed conservatives when tasks could lead to frustration and doubt...as when outcomes were out of control.

(Which makes perfect sense)


So, generally, conservatives outperform liberals when they feel they are in control, and, as a group, tend to interpret their environment AS them having more control.

Liberals are less likely to view themselves in control, and are less likely to interpret their environment as them having control over it.


This ties together the studies that, for example, use a switch not connected to anything, and a light that randomly goes on/off by itself.

Liberals are more likely to say that they didn't think the switch was controlling the light, and, conservatives are more likely to say they found a pattern of switching that activated the light.

Combining many studies then:


So, in jobs/scenarios where the conservative would not feel they could control outcomes, they tend to get frustrated and quit....and those scenarios are where the liberals outperform them.

In scenarios where the conservatives feel that they are able to control outcomes, they outperformed the liberals.

Essentially, the liberals tended to hesitate longer before acting, slowing their response times....so accuracy was the same across groups, but the conservatives were faster to the same conclusions.

The feeling of being in control allowed a decisiveness in the conservatives that was lacking in the liberals.


In evolutionary terms, the conservatives would excel in a world of the "quick or the dead", due to more decisive action...but the liberals would excel when the environment was less predictable and things were more out of control.

The conservatives would compensate for that lack of actual control by thinking that their environment was more under control than it was...a good thing when fast is more desirable than accurate. (A good plan now is better than a perfect plan that there was no time to implement, He who hesitates is lost, etc) As religion makes people feel like things are under control, it would be a natural crutch to facilitate that.

The liberals would only out compete conservatives when the environment would be out of control enough to reward hesitation (Look before you leap, etc). Religion would not help here as much, because the impetus to rely on that crutch is lessened by the need to more accurately assess the true conditions.



From an evolutionary stand point, it would make sense to have BOTH groups, as each has its advantages and disadvantages.


Its an interesting series.

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Old 07-15-2015, 08:13 PM #5630
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:57 AM #5631
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Old 07-28-2015, 05:06 PM #5632
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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