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Old 06-02-2015, 02:33 PM #5553
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
This is about where Islam is in its evolution...and, they'll probably outgrow it too...after a thousand years or so, just as we did.

I wish you would stop saying that Islam is early in its evolution, you have said that at least 3 times now. Islam is 1400 years old now, if it takes them another thousand years to have a reformation or become more peaceful and tolerant of others then there will be wars that will kill billions of people.

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Essentially, BOTH OF US know the other's unicorn is not there, for the exact same reason. (A unicorn, really? That's ridiculous!)




My reasons for not believing in your unicorn come down to some basic premises, many of which I have presented already.

I'll come back and summarize them later, but, I'm on the road today, so, not enough time to finish the post in one shot.

Unicorns died out in the flood because 2 of them failed to make it to the ark in time. It's just a theory I can't prove it.

There is no proving one side or the other as far as I know, not scientifically at least not with present technology. I said this once before but I'll repeat it again: much of what people will accept on faith depends on more than what their parents teach them or what they learn in church as a child. It also depends on what they have experienced durring their lifetime. If someone knows that spirits/ghosts an afterlife is real then they may be more open minded to religion. If they have been visited by a deceased relative or had a near death experience or witnessed a miracle then they will also be more open minded to religion. Remember science doesn't explain these things, religion offers an explaination to these things that have probably been experienced by hundreds of millions of people. If a family member tells you some such thing happened to them then you might believe them and also be more open minded to religion. If you ever experience something that you would define as supernatural or paranormal, it will likely scare the hell out of you but it will change your view of things forever.

There could however be another explanation for a miracle other than divine intervention, and the existence of an afterlife is also not proof of God or intelligent design. I do expect that science will one day prove the existence of ghosts/spirits but that remains to be seen. It's very easy to prove to yourself, if you can get the opportunity to visit a place that is haunted or experiencing some sort of paranormal activity, just take a camera and a digital voice recorder with you. There are unexplainable things you can do with a Ouija board anywhere but I don't recommend it. It is unfortunate that there is not more serious scientific investigation of things some would consider supernatural or paranormal.

There are more things in heaven and earth Teej than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Old 06-03-2015, 02:39 AM #5554
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
the eye witness accounts in the New Testament.
"The bible is true because the bible says it is true"

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
If they have been visited by a deceased relative or had a near death experience or witnessed a miracle then they will also be more open minded to religion. Remember science doesn't explain these things
Who says science doesn't explain these things? Even if it doesn't, there is NO mechanism in place that you can use to tell the difference between something strange that has a natural explanation, and something strange that has only a supernatural explanation.

Saying "I can't explain it, therefore it's supernatural" is a contradiction.
"I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it."
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:53 AM #5555
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Who says science doesn't explain these things? Even if it doesn't, there is NO mechanism in place that you can use to tell the difference between something strange that has a natural explanation, and something strange that has only a supernatural explanation.
I agree completely. I am just saying that this is why many people accept religion, the explaination offered by religion is without any proof but they aren't seeing any other explaination. Even though there's no proof of anything, if they're offered a possible explaination they will accept it if there's nothing else.

Some Christians and also some Buddhists have told me why they believe what they do and it is sometimes due to something unexplainable that happened to them.

This is not logical but it is so. You can't expect most people to be as intelligent as you or I, and you also can't expect people to just dismiss and forget something that happens that no one can explain, they will look for an explanation, and if they don't find one they will often believe what someone tells them is a possible explanation.

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Old 06-03-2015, 10:18 AM #5556
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
If someone knows that spirits/ghosts an afterlife is real then they may be more open minded to religion. If they have been visited by a deceased relative or had a near death experience or witnessed a miracle then they will also be more open minded to religion. Remember science doesn't explain these things, religion offers an explaination to these things that have probably been experienced by hundreds of millions of people.
They can't "know" that those things exist though. They believe those things exist. Even more specifically, they take it up almost entirely by faith

There's a video about this. And it really is gold:



It's been theorized that Dimethyltryptamine (often called DMT) is released by the brain (If I'm not mistaken it is produced in the pineal gland) when someone is in an extremely stressful situation, for example when one is having a near death experience. DMT is a psychedelic drug that has the ability to cause hallucinations. It may be the reason why people seem to think they've encountered divine beings when they "die". Dr. Rick Strassman is the one who conducted research about the topic, in case you want to read more about it
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Old 06-03-2015, 12:27 PM #5557
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah, no one who knows how it works, claims that a lack of belief is a belief: that's the claim made by those who want to simplify the argument into two contradictory beliefs, and then, typically, view it as a draw.





When Christianity was ~ 1,400 years old, that was in the year, oh, lets say ~ 1,400.

In ~ 1,400, Christians were still murdering non-Christians, and, Christians of different sects, people who did not dress the way they decreed they must, did not act the way they decreed they must, etc...

Just as Islam's extremists at least still are.

So, despite that some here might be tired of hearing about Islam being young, well, when we were its age, we are just as violent and brutal to those who did not dress or act or profess to what we decreed they must.

That's the facts...Islam is young, and acts as Christianity did when IT was young.





And, yup, many people, most probably, make the mistake of wanting an explanation as a placeholder if nothing else.

The only real differences between the people on the sliding scale are how much evidence they require to plug in an explanation in that spot.


For example, scientists might go with a theory that is verifiable, and can be plugged in to explain multiple phenomenon. IE: Well, if this is true, that would mean that this that and the other thing should occur like THIS....and then, they see if that holds true. If applying the explanation holds true in other cases as well, and doesn't prove to fail in any cases...then, its often accepted as a potential explanation.

If a scientist finds that he can find exceptions, exceptions which indicate that the explanation can't be correct, they will simply accept that they just don't yet HAVE an explanation.

A religious person, or other person, who needs everything to have an explanation, DOES tend to paste in a supernatural explanation rather than have an empty cubby hole.


This, historically, has been the procedure:

Something happened, lets say its raining...why?

1) God(s) watering our crops because we sacrificed a virgin, which made him happy.

2) We prayed for rain, and, god made it rain

3) We burned the witch who was keeping it from raining

Add the opposite: We wanted rain, we did the above, and it didn't work, why?

1) It was god's will

2) The lord works in mysterious ways

3) There must be more witches

4) Maybe she wasn't a virgin


After science advances enough:

1) The moisture from bodies of water, soil, etc, rises, as water vapor is lighter than air...and eventually reaches an altitude and combination of barometric conditions, that condenses it back into water, so it falls to earth as rain...unless its cold enough to also freeze it into snow, etc.


---------------

So, those who find a natural explanation for rain to satisfy their need for an explanation a good fit...go with that.

Those who need to cling to the virgins and witches and other supernatural explanations, go with that.


When challenged about why they believe what they do, the scientific group points to verifiable evidence regarding evaporation, condensation, cloud formation, etc.

Groups that believe in supernatural explanations instead, tend to say, well, you have your belief, and we have ours, and you can't prove ours is invalid.

They might also show a list of times that witches were burned and it rained, etc, as further proof that it worked...and dismiss the times it didn't as god's will, etc.


Some will have conceded why it rains, as a natural phenomenon, but still insist that there is no natural explanation for the tides going in/out....and insist that surely THAT is supernatural....

...and so forth.


If open minded enough, they may, over time, substitute natural explanations for about everything...but still need there to be SOME supernatural forces at work, and, whenever they DON'T have a natural explanation, they automatically plug in the supernatural....rather than have an empty spot with no explanation.

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Old 06-03-2015, 05:07 PM #5558
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Studies have done a good job documenting the "death experience", and, of simulating it to prove how it works.

Essentially, when you are dying, the brain is not getting enough oxygen, and, just like any other organ deprived of oxygen, it starts to have trouble working properly...and a cascade of reactions follow.

Very consistently, the images and sensations reported by "those who died and came back" are duplicated by commencing the brain's shut down sequences.

Basically, that IS what you see when you die, AND when dying is simulated.

It is chemical/physiological, not spiritual...unless you believe scientists are god.

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Old 06-03-2015, 05:27 PM #5559
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Ouija boards, divining rods, etc, have a scientific basis, just not the basis for their claims.

Essentially, a person CAN subconsciously tell ITSELF what to do...

And, teeny dips in elevation, due to underground structures or voids, water, etc, can be more easily detected when you are trained to let the divining rod work analogous to a seismic detector, magnifying the impact of the terrain change, increasing the odds of perception.

Some people are more proprioceptive than others, and they will tend to be better at this, etc.

The reason its not infallible is because the method of detection is not a reliable predictor, but, it does increase the odds.


Some people are essentially better guessers than others, and can pick up "tells" better, etc.

And so forth. This is about nervous systems, not about supernatural powers.


An electric eel can emit electricity...and there's mechanisms that it uses to accomplish this.

A shark can detect the electrical current from a contracting muscle, such as a heart beat...and home in on it....and there are mechanisms it uses to do that as well.


A bat can emit high pitched sounds that bounce back to its ears, and "see" what's out there the same way WE "see" light bouncing back to our eyes, and use that to construct a picture of what's out there.

Scientists have developed a potential means of interstellar transport that involves warping the fabric of space time as a means of propulsion...and ion droves are already in use on craft exploring Pluto, etc.


There are things out there that are just incredible...and, they are all natural.

There are things we don't know, and we may go extinct before we get to find them out....but the list of what we don't know, as a species at least, is growing shorter and shorter and at an accelerating pace.


As science fills in the gaps in our knowledge, and we cross off another and then yet another thing formerly ascribed to magic or the supernatural...eventually, more and more people will recognize the thousands of year old pattern, and start to get that supernatural things are simply things we have yet to supply the real explanation for.

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Old 06-03-2015, 05:34 PM #5560
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

They never really believed that about sacrificing virgins, that only worked with volcanos, they probably only did it so all the young girls wouldn't want to remain virgins.

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Old 06-03-2015, 05:46 PM #5561
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
They never really believed that about sacrificing virgins, that only worked with volcanos, they probably only did it so all the young girls wouldn't want to remain virgins.

Alan
LOL

You're theory makes more sense than supernatural beings who have a thing for dead but intact hymens.


The volcano thing is popular in movies, etc, but, historically, ALL sacrifices by the various cultures tended to include requirements that the animal, etc, being sacrificed be "as perfect as possible".

IE: No flaws, as that would diminish the value, and, then its not as much of a sacrifice.


As human males viewed intact hymens as a really big deal historically, non-virgins were considered to be "flawed"...by human males...and, therefore, by gods, who, historically, seemed to always share the beliefs of the human males.



I like your idea of sluttiness as a survival strategy, except that in ancient times, even if a girl was raped, she was now considered worthless...and was as good as dead anyway.

So, given the "honor" of being considered the most perfect girl in the village, versus the shame and humiliation of being a worthless stain on your family's honor...typically killed for being raped, etc...

...the girls tended to be a chaste as they would have been w/o a volcano to feed.
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Old 06-05-2015, 03:03 PM #5562
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 06-05-2015, 10:29 PM #5563
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
OK, so, ignore the part about the flood written about the flood itself, supposedly based upon some responsible accounting of what happened....

In which its very very clear that ONLY Noah and his family were to be spared, because the rest of humanity was not worth saving....and the very clear description that the entire surface was flooded over the tops of the tallest mountains....

...and forget that water finds its level, IE: A flood that lasts (As the bible describes) as opposed to a flash floor or flood from a tsunami, etc...

...so that to flood say the entire middle east, to that depth, you'd have to also flood the rest of the areas around it, etc...

...and then say that a guy a few thousand years later would have some way of KNOWING what actually flooded, and what didn't, when the ONLY information he COULD HAVE HAD would have been passed from NOAH's family...wrote a psalm that was more accurate about what happened than reported by Noah's account?

AND

That the account from thousands of years later was only "ungodly people" being flooded, (And, I assume, only ungodly animals?) being flooded....despite EVERYONE EXCEPT NOAH'S family being in that category...

..but now saying That was WRONG, and that Noah's family was merely one of many...

...and finally saying (As per the interview) that the flood was not a world wide flood, but a mere local flood, just as many many floods have occurred historically throughout the ages....w/o needing to blame them on GOD wanting to kill EVERYONE because they were "ungodly" or sinners, corrupt, or wore mullets, or whatever God was so ticked off about.

So, lets say it was akin to the New Orleans flooding from Katrina.

If some dude decided that a flood was coming, and to build an Ark (He read the Army Core of Engineer's report. or said god read it to him...) to save himself and family, and whatever animals he could...

...and said it was going to happen because his neighbors were all sinners and god was going to smite them/drown them...

He'd be Noah.

OK, I'd buy that....and if he's the one left, sure, he can spin it anyway he wants to.

As there is a ton of evidence that small sections of the earth have flooded from time to time, that's not a debatable issue, plenty of evidence for it.

If its only a local/katrina type flood, sure, a wooden boat could be used to take a lot of the local livestock, etc.

If you're a dumb bronze age dude and didn't know that other places had different animals, or even that there WERE different places...sure, you might say "you got all of them".


The problem comes down to what you blame the flood ON.

If you look at patterns of global warming due to greenhouse gases and so forth, and how ~ 0.1º of increase in ocean surface temperature correlates to about a one class upgrade in storm severity (A class 1 becomes a class 2, etc...), etc, you might blame the flood on storms being more severe, the defenses against storm surges not being addressed for political and budgetary reasons...etc.

If you decide that New Orleans is full of sinners, and the flood was God's way of punishing the sinners, you could look at the map of the surge, and, sure enough you WOULD see the difference between the parts of the city that were heavily impacted, and which areas were essentially spared, and see where the sinners that god's wrath was directed at lived.

Some people actually did do that, and found a clear distinction between damage to what was considered the gay district, and the rest of the city for example.

They found the gay district was spared, and suffered almost no damage compared to the rest of the city...so, god was obviously punishing the gays he hates, with survivor's guilt.





Summary:

There was no world wide flood, just some local flooding. Noah's family was only one of many, and God apologized for wiping out humanity for pretty much no reason, a brain fart perhaps.

If god could have a brain fart, its possible that those are the gases now causing global warming.

Hmmmm, we might be on to something....



Or


God didn't apologize and create that covenant....well, its one or the other.

He either had a brain fart, and forgot he only murdered a few people but said the entire earth....or, he didn't have a brain fart, and did wipe out everyone except Noah and his family...and made rainbows.


People who like rainbows therefore should be fans of global flooding.





Sidebar:

According to the bible, because he felt bad for murdering the entire planet except Noah's family, god gave us (Well, Noah's descendents...) Rainbows as a sign of the covenant (To never kill everyone by flood again...).

A brain fart is still not out of the question, as the bible clearly quotes god as saying the rainbow will remind him to not kill everyone again, so, god needed some reminding of that for example...and left himself a cool stickie.

Apparently, light didn't diffract when passing through water vapor before that time...so, the covenant also included some physics bonus items, etc....sweet.


I feel bad for all those people who came BEFORE Noah, as there were no rainbows yet.



OR


There were rainbows before there were people, and, they happen due to the physics involved, and we didn't have to wait until after some middle eastern Katrina to get them...and there was no covenant, or god to make one with.

If he didn't make rainbows for the covenant, when a key claim is that he DID...the bible is fiction.


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Old 06-06-2015, 07:22 PM #5564
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm trying to come at this discussion with a good attitude so don't take this the wrong way, but most of your posting and especially this last one is less than coherent rambling with many tangents and no sources to back up or point to whatever your reasoning is. You are difficult to communicate with and I wish this wasn't so.

That being said your skepticism of one book of the bible still doesn't discredit the other 65 books as you seem to claim it does.
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:43 PM #5565
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm trying to come at this discussion with a good attitude so don't take this the wrong way, but most of your posting and especially this last one is less than coherent rambling with many tangents and no sources to back up or point to whatever your reasoning is. You are difficult to communicate with and I wish this wasn't so.

That being said your skepticism of one book of the bible still doesn't discredit the other 65 books as you seem to claim it does.
OK...

So you need a source as to rainbows?

You don't understand the reasoning?

I'm not making things up, trust me, rainbows are a well understood phenomenon.

If you need that level of explanation for every point, it will be very difficult to discuss this topic.


I'll break it down nice and simple then:

To prove the bible (All the books, one of the books, etc) is not "true", how much in each book needs to be disproved?

Will this be a conversation that goes along the lines of "Well, just because that sentence wasn't true, that doesn't disprove the other sentences...."?

Because, the PREMISE is that ALL of the books ar "the word of god"...

No where does it say that some percentage is true, and some percentage is false.

Now, if YOU know which sections are claimed to be wrong, false, etc...it would save some time if you listed them.

So, the Story of Noah is false...unless you insist there were no rainbows before the flood?

If the story of Noah is false, so are all the stories that refer to Noah..in both testaments.

So is the covenant between god and the Jews/Mankind, depending upon how you interpret that.

So are all the references to that, and so forth.

IE: IF ANY of it is made up, and all of the scriptures are based upon the rest of the scriptures...essentially, it all comes crumbling down.

This is not grading a paper, and just crossing out the parts that are wrong.

This is taking testimony from a witness to see if their alibi works, and prosecuting them if the story has holes....not because the crime is different if they had tea at 2 or coffee at 3, but because it throws doubt on the story's veracity, and, therefore, their guilt or innocence.

So, if the bible, which is CLAIMED to be god's word, has ANY faults, those faults are either attributable to god (Who chose who's ears to whisper into etc...), or, to man.

If its the word of MAN, it is not holy...its a book.

If you want, a lot of books...that we collectively call the bible.



So - Super Summary -

As the bible has no section or sections specified as not being god's word/true...if ANY of it is not true, the claim is disproved....and, there's no reason to believe the rest is true either...as they all claim the same holiness/perfection.

I say the reason there are rainbows is explained by physics, and, the principles are duplicated with analogous examples, and that there is no reason to believe that these principles did not exist until after "the flood".

Make your case for the prism/rainbow effect to have not existed until that period in history attributed to the bible. (Which will be hard because there are references to rainbows that predate the biblical reference)

Or admit its a sham.


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Old 06-07-2015, 03:36 AM #5566
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If all of your posts from here on out were "Super Summaries" that would be great.

Quote:
This may have been the first reference to the rainbow in the Scriptures, but it does not tell us that this was the first time it was seen by man. Therefore, we need to ask two questions: 1) Does God always use something new to be the symbol of a covenant He establishes? 2) Would the fixed laws of heaven and earth have allowed a rainbow to be seen prior to the Flood?

There are several examples of God using a symbol or practice already known to man as a sign of a covenant. The first was the covenant of circumcision made with Abraham (Genesis 17:1-14). It was not a common practice at the time of Abraham but not unknown to him. Secondly, Baptism was a known practice when it was used in Matthew 3 as a covenant with a believer.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:31 AM #5567
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What if prior to the flood there was cloud cover all the time world wide? Without direct sunlight you won't have a rainbow. This would also have reduced exposure to radiation from the sun and could possibly explain people living longer.

Another possible explanation is that there were rainbows before the flood and the covenant means that wherever a rainbow appears, no matter what happens, everyone in that area won't be killed.

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Old 06-07-2015, 11:30 AM #5568
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
What if prior to the flood there was cloud cover all the time world wide? Without direct sunlight you won't have a rainbow. This would also have reduced exposure to radiation from the sun and could possibly explain people living longer.

Another possible explanation is that there were rainbows before the flood and the covenant means that wherever a rainbow appears, no matter what happens, everyone in that area won't be killed.

Alan
There were desert animals, so, no, no mist...and, a mist would have allowed a rainbow.

The language of Genesis is very clear, ONLY Noah and his family were spared...EVERYONE ELSE was murdered by drowning...BECAUSE everyone else was unworthy of being saved. So, EVERYONE else was an ungodly/sinner and perished.

So, sure, in real life, nothing happened, at all, its just a retelling of older flood myths...but, in the story/myth in the bible...its clear no one on earth was left except Noah's boat people. The later references, in later passages of the larger fairy tale, to only sinners being drowned, ignores the fact that only Noah et al were NOT classified as sinners.

The description is that god made the rainbow as a sign of his covenant. Later translations softened that, added "token" and some other language, but, that's what the originals said.

More along the lines of a story where the reader concludes "And that, children, is why we have rainbows!"


The ark story was supposed to involve all humanity, as everyone descended from Noah's boat people...as did every other living thing.



The Jews used baptism before Christianity, but god never said he invented baptism or circumcision, just said to do it. (Possibly how the God Nike came to be?) The Jews do seem to be the first we know of to take a day off, so, that's at least within the realm of physics, etc.


If you want to say things "god said he made", were already in existence, and god just "adopted them" to represent things, fine...but that includes the heavens and earth too.




The bible also says Noah invented wine, got drunk, slept with his privies exposed, one son saw him and told his brothers...they covered him w/o looking...and the one who saw him was cursed to be a slave, and his decedents too.

So, Noah is credited with inventing wine, and, in one swell foop, re-established slavery upon his own progeny. (So slaves are then rationalized as simply the cursed decedents', and, that's their fate as god desired...)

It must have been REALLY bad to accidentally see your dad's private parts back then.

And the Chinese had wine a few thousand years before the biblical scholars think the flood happened....so Noah's claim might be a bit optimistic.

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