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Old 06-01-2015, 12:38 AM #5537
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Claim: We don't have the original New Testament manuscripts. We only have copies of copies of copies, so we have no idea if what we now have is what the original manuscripts said.
Short Response: While we don't have the originals, we have an abundance of copies, including a good number of early ones, which enable us to reconstruct the likely original text with a considerable degree of confidence. There is no good reason to believe that significant changes crept in so early in the copying process that they left no trace of the original reading in the copies available to us today.





This is not true...

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.




This is also not true, biblically Christians are to pay the taxes they owe, there is no obligation to pay anything more.


But the copies are different, and not just typos...in meaning as well.

Some copies are not IN some versions of the bible, and, some are, but, are different.

Some copies have margin notes indicating that they are not good for sermons, and to replace them with something else...or just crossed out sections....and some have versions to include that were included, and, some that were not.


Its these inconsistencies that biblical scholars study to try to figure out what's more, or less, relevant.


-------------------


A book that says something about itself doesn't prove anything about it other than it said it....we still have no way to know if its CORRECT.

------------------


Actually, if you do some more research, you will see versions that has Jesus saying to pay MORE taxes than you owe.

----------------


When editing the King James version for example, wording over this exact point was hotly debated...by the people who WROTE the King James Bible, paid for by King James (Amazing coincidence, reallly...)





You quote from Matthew for example:

Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 70 to 110 CE.

(A pre-70 date remains a minority view.) The anonymous author was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.

Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on three main sources, the Gospel of Mark, the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source, and material unique to his own community, called "Special Matthew", or the M source.

The gospel of Matthew is essentially a creative reinterpretation of Mark, stressing Jesus' teachings as much as his acts, and making subtle changes in order to reveal his divine nature – Mark's "young man" who appears at Jesus' tomb, for example, becomes a radiant angel in Matthew.

The divine nature of Jesus was a major issue for the community of Matthew, the crucial element marking them off from their Jewish neighbors; the gospel of Mark recounts prior revelations in Jesus' lifetime on earth, at his baptism and transfiguration, but Matthew goes back further still, showing Jesus as the Son of God from his birth, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.


So, who was there that long, 70 to 90 YEARS after Jesus died (for about 3 days...)...and wrote this stuff you quote?

-------------

Again - Its a BOOK. Just a book. Its still a classic, but, its still a book.

People wrote it, lots and lots and lots of people. I forget how many hundred wrote the KJ version alone. I used to know their names...at least the group leaders.



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Old 06-01-2015, 01:05 AM #5538
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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" There is substantial agreement on the part of textual critics, whether conservative or otherwise, on what the original manuscripts said in cases such as John's account of the adulterous woman or the longer ending of Mark's Gospel. In the few other cases where there is room for disagreement, no matter which reading is adopted, there is no major doctrinal problem or incongruity in the New Testament documents. None of these textual choices impacts core Christian theology. All that is at stake are how many and which passages make the point."
And as I posted before

Quote:
"There is no compelling reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the New Testament writings to its respective authors, whether Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (gospels), or Paul Peter, James, Jude, and John (Letters and Revelation). Forgery was widely frowned upon by Christians in the first century. The statistics of different vocabulary or theological emphases in particular books attributed to the same author don't prove forgery. Instead, the range of vocabulary and theological emphases is more likely due to other factors, such as the occasion and context of the original recipients, the specific topics addressed, the normal variation in vocabulary used by authors over time, the use of traditional materials and forms in language distinct from the author, and the possible use of a secretary."
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:13 AM #5539
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And as I posted before
Albeit its not applicable, as the actual changes were substantive.

Quoting someone who might be wrong doesn't prove what they say is true...

...or false.

But that's like trying to win an argument about who was a more feared hitter, but quoting someone who says "there is little reason to doubt that Joe Blow was the most feared hitter".


There's MANY reasons to doubt...the people who have a vested interest in fighting the nagging doubts cling to any source that males them feel better.


Remember, its biblical scholars who study this stuff, and THEY doubt a lot of it...and for all intents and purposes, KNOW Matthew was a fabrication.

So if a disciple was a tax collector, and, amazingly, there's instructions to pay your taxes in the bible...its not too hard to figure out the source.


If a guy cast as a contemporary is still alive 70 - 90 years later, but writing in the style of his descendants instead of the style he would have learned about a hundred years earlier (making him a disciple at ~ 10 years old? etc...) - its fishy....its not "Little reason to doubt"


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Old 06-01-2015, 01:42 AM #5540
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Quoting someone who might be wrong doesn't prove what they say is true...

...or false.
Well, at times I prefer to present things I have learned reading in the words of the original source. You're presenting things you have learned, I assume, in your own words. Presenting what you have learned from someone else who might be wrong in your own words doesn't prove what you said is true.... or false.


Quote:
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There's MANY reasons to doubt...the people who have a vested interest in fighting the nagging doubts cling to any source that makes them feel better.
This is a pretty good example of a lot of the blanket statements you use on your assumptions of what others are thinking and of the nature of humanity. There is truth to it, but the same can be said for atheism, it doesn't forward or detract from either of our positions.
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:07 AM #5541
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Well, at times I prefer to present things I have learned reading in the words of the original source. You're presenting things you have learned, I assume, in your own words. Presenting what you have learned from someone else who might be wrong in your own words doesn't prove what you said is true.... or false.




This is a pretty good example of a lot of the blanket statements you use on your assumptions of what others are thinking and of the nature of humanity. There is truth to it, but the same can be said for atheism, it doesn't forward or detract from either of our positions.
Exactly...except I don't need to prove that there are supernatural explanations for things....I'm not the one with the "hard to prove claim".

The burden of proof is on the claimant.


Atheists see no proof. All things presented as proof, thus far, throughout history, have been proven to be flawed.

That doesn't prove that there is NO proof, it just shows that the claims are not based upon proof...as there is none that is valid.


I can't prove to you that there are no invisible purple unicorns on my shoulder right now...

...even if I post a picture of one on my shoulder as proof, you may say the proof is flawed, as it just shows my shoulder with nothing on it.

I may argue that it DOES prove my point, as its an INVISIBLE purple unicorn...and, as you can't see it, it proves it is in fact invisible.


And so forth.

You would have little reason to believe that there was an invisible purple unicorn on my shoulder, unless I could make a more compelling argument.


I could show you quotes of people saying there's little reason to doubt the invisible purple unicorn on my shoulder....etc...

Would it sway you to believe me about the unicorn?



What if I told you I feel its presence?

What if I told you its in a book written by the society of invisible purple unicorns, and, the book very clearly states that there ARE invisible purple unicorns, and if you don't believe in them, you will be punished for all eternity?


Convinced yet?

Shouldn't you believe in them, you know, just in case NOT believing in them would mean an eternity of torture and torment? What would it hurt? You have nothing to lose, right?

If there IS an invisible purple unicorn who will torture you for all eternity for NOT believing in him...and if you DO believe, you are SAVED!!!!!

If there is no invisible purple unicorn, well, you break even...isn't that a fair wager? Not believing MIGHT = eternity of torture....why risk it?



NOW are you convinced?

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE for you to believe it? (Or has the above done it already...?


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Old 06-01-2015, 02:41 AM #5542
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Atheists see no proof. All things presented as proof, thus far, throughout history, have been proven to be flawed.
This is not true


Although I understand the unicorn example, it's a false equivalency, there is plenty of solid evidence.


Quote:
The burden of proof is on the claimant.
Atheism is in general "the worldview that there is no god", which is a claim and also has the burden of proof. I understand the typical response is "Russell's teapot", but it's not an accurate comparison to reality. In our conversation up to now I've demonstrated the solid ground upon which Christians stand. You haven't provided anything that undeniably discredits the evidence of the resurrection of Christ or the existence of god.

In light of this how do you justify your worldview that there is no God with the 100% certainty that you seem to have.
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:43 AM #5543
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
This is not true


Although I understand the unicorn example, it's a false equivalency, there is plenty of solid evidence.




Atheism is in general "the worldview that there is no god", which is a claim and also has the burden of proof. I understand the typical response is "Russell's teapot", but it's not an accurate comparison to reality. In our conversation up to now I've demonstrated the solid ground upon which Christians stand. You haven't provided anything that undeniably discredits the evidence of the resurrection of Christ or the existence of god.

In light of this how do you justify your worldview that there is no God with the 100% certainty that you seem to have.


Sweet, show me the unflawed proof of god's existence.


I can't believe you've had it the whole time too, that is so cool!



I can't wait to read it.


While you're at it, show the unflawed proof of YOUR CLAIM THAT THERE IS NO INVISIBLE PURPLE UNICORN ON MY SHOULDER.


And for the record, there has been zero solid proof thus far...not plenty. None.

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Old 06-01-2015, 03:04 AM #5544
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I've presented evidence to the truth of scripture, and against your skepticism of scripture. If you choose to ignore it there is nothing else to discuss.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:42 AM #5545
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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I've presented evidence to the truth of scripture, and against your skepticism of scripture. If you choose to ignore it there is nothing else to discuss.
Awwww, I thought you were serious.

You presented no proof. You presented quotes from the book who's very veracity was in question as proof of the book's truth.

If you say: "well, I have proof, but you ignored it"

It will NEVER mean I IGNORED it in real life.


What actually happened was that you didn't present proof, you presented what you felt was proof, but was not.


If you want to ignore what proof would actually consist of, that's fine, but, it then becomes unrealistic for you to expect to convince anyone.


You have never presented unflawed proof. ALL of your arguments have been flawed.

Obviously, your idea of a burden of proof is not the same as what is considered a burden of proof in more structured logical practice.

Reason and Logic are beautiful things. They help to decipher what is valid from what is not.


If you were to learn how it works, and how to use it, and apply it to questions, and to answers, you would come to different conclusions that you do currently.


You would avoid silly statements that indicate a lack of reason....and, perhaps, understand that things work a certain way, differently that your current methods have allowed.


Example:

The claim that there is no invisible unicorn, in response to the claim that there is, is not a "world view". The belief that there is an invisible unicorn is the claim requiring proof, not the claim that there is not. IE: YOUR "World View" is not that there are no invisible purple unicorns, you are simply rejecting my claim that there is.


Conversely, lets say that I found that the earth revolved around the sun...and, common knowledge at the time, was that the sun revolved around the earth.

NOW we have a reasonable scenario that is a claim that sides can validly be taken on.


So, one side can argue that GOD appointed the POPE as his representative here on earth, and, the POPE has stated that the Sun revolves around the earth...and, that as the Pope is infallible, speaks directly to God, and therefore, obviously, the sun revolves around the earth.

One could reasonably add that the sun does seem to rise over there, and then set over there, and then come back the next morning, and that should prove that the sun is going around the earth.

They could add that ancient Greeks, who possessed all knowledge ever to exist to mankind, and who used reason and logic, determined that the sun revolved around the earth.


The other side could argue that observations made using a new type of math and new types of optical instruments, shows that the earth is spinning based upon its relationship to other bodies in space, such as the stars, other planets, the moon, etc...and that the Sun is at the center of this, with all the planets circling it.

They could reasonably add that there is no proof that there is a god, and no proof that if there was, he appointed a pope, and if he did appoint a pope, there is no proof he is infallible, and so forth.

They could also add that the Greeks actually did not have all knowledge, and that there have been break thoughs in many fields since then, including in reason and logic, and, the recognition of the limits of available data.

They could argue that the observed sunrise and sun set could ALSO be explained by the earth revolving around the sun.


And so forth.



It would, especially at that time....be a completely fair debate, as the outrageous claim, then, was that the earth revolved around the sun.

That meant the burden of proof was upon the scientists rocking the boat.


Of course, the big difference is that science CAN prove things, and, religion cannot.


If we take the above a little further...

The original church was Catholic. Everything you have came from the Catholic church.

They BURNED everything that they disagreed with, that they could get, as far as all of those ancient manuscripts and notes, etc...that eventually formed the bible.

They banished, excommunicated, or murdered (executed) every individual who had evidence of an opposing position or document.

This is documented by the church itself.


That's who's word you are taking for all of this. (ALL of this)





So there's a REASON that science CAN prove things...it uses PROOF. Things that it can't prove are not claimed to be immutable facts....they are claimed to be unknown.

The reason religion CANNOT prove things is that there is no proof.



Its typically a version of anecdotal points combined with incorrect interpretations of facts and/or flawed logic and reason....presented as "proof", but, never in the history of the world, has there ever been actual proof.

Thomas Aquinas, and others, tried to prove god's existence for example, but, their logic was flawed.


So, for religion to try to "prove" anything...has been lets say daunting....as no religion has ever been able to do it.


If they want to say that they accept what they believe without proof, on faith, that is 100% fair.

If they want to say they have proof, well, it has to BE proof....it can't be the usual drivel....to count.


The closest they have come is essentially the picture of the shoulder...essentially "Well, YOU can't prove there ISN'T an invisible purple unicorn on my shoulder, so, you have to admit its at least POSSIBLE that one IS there!

This is not "Proof" though...its silliness parading as evidence. You can plug in anything you want and "prove it" with that sort of approach.



You can't prove the veracity of a document by quoting the document's claims for its own veracity.

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Old 06-01-2015, 04:12 AM #5546
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
"Convert to my religion, or you burn in hell." is a bit more harsh than my conversation tactics

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
So you're of the opinion the old testament laws still apply, yes? Because I've got a small list of passages saying the opposite.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:05 PM #5547
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
"Convert to my religion, or you burn in hell." is a bit more harsh than my conversation tactics



So you're of the opinion the old testament laws still apply, yes? Because I've got a small list of passages saying the opposite.


Essentially, what we have here, is a failure to communicate....

Jesus is quoted as saying he is here to fulfill the Jewish law...and as saying that not one iota of it is allowed to be changed....

...and then the people who "interpret" what he said, who didn't want the religion to simply involve being Jewish, decided that they should more or less see if they could get away with claiming that the laws that Jesus said to not change one iota, should be changed.

They edited things to say parts sort of expired...what God said didn't count any more because there was "A New Covenant".


So, Jesus may very well have said that he was there to fulfil the old laws, and to make sure not a single letter was changed, etc....as he was, historically, a Jewish Zealot, fighting the Romans, and pushing a return to more stringent Judaism.

The vast majority of editing of the bibles, especially in the earliest editions and versions, involved "De-Jewifying Jesus".

IE: Acknowledge he was of Jewish birth, needed to be a Messiah afterall...and, of the Jews highest rank as far as his father, which they sort of took out a bit later when they had finally decided Mary could not have been impregnated, and to go with the popular (for the time) virgin birth myth...so, the lineage of his father went from his biological father to his supernatural father, analogous to the other mythologies.

Leave out that Jews practiced baptism back then, and make it look like it was invented by John et al.

Remove all the "scenes with violence", as Jesus was transformed from a rebel fighter to a meek pacifist. They did leave in, for example, the attack on the money lenders, as one of the jobs the Romans allowed Jews to have was being a money lender...so that they could be hated more easily. Same with tax collector, etc...so, essentially, Jesus only attacks Jews in the bible....and, Jews were depicted as hated.


So, the essence of the historical Jesus was a fierce rebel fighter, but, the Jesus needed to subdue the masses needed the example to be PAY the taxes, be law abiding, be meek, serve your masters well, etc...as that sort of subject is far easier to rule.

Don't talk about Jesus KILLING tax collectors, talk about him inviting them to dinner.

Compared to other religions of the time...it was very comforting..."Sure, you serve your master well, you pay your taxes, you don't cheat or steal, etc...and, you go to a better place when you die, and have an eternity of happiness as your eternal reward...."

That seemed like a great offer to many many people, and, the new religion spread like wildfire.

People were very simple back then...and quite easy to manipulate for the most part.

After the church had enough mass to throw around, they could then start shifting from the carrot to the stick, and start emphasizing the eternal punishments, and, just in case, they started adding punishments here on earth too...for not believing the way that they said you had to believe.

This is about where Islam is in its evolution...and, they'll probably outgrow it too...after a thousand years or so, just as we did.


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Old 06-02-2015, 01:15 PM #5548
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
What actually happened was that you didn't present proof, you presented what you felt was proof, but was not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

Most of the earliest extant manuscripts of the new testament date back to the 2nd-3rd century. I've shown you many sound reasons to believe they are not corrupt.

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
It will NEVER mean I IGNORED it in real life.
You are ignoring it, you could concede that your worldview might not be correct, or show me how you know, 100%, that the scriptures are false. You have done neither.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
"Convert to my religion, or you burn in hell." is a bit more harsh than my conversation tactics


So you're of the opinion the old testament laws still apply, yes? Because I've got a small list of passages saying the opposite.

Humanity is rebellious and corrupt before a holy God, and we are given grace and the free will to take it to be counted as holy. There are two sides to the coin Cyp.

The law and How it is Fulfilled in Christ

What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:25 PM #5549
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

Most of the earliest extant manuscripts of the new testament date back to the 2nd-3rd century. I've shown you many sound reasons to believe they are not corrupt.



You are ignoring it, you could concede that your worldview might not be correct, or show me how you know, 100%, that the scriptures are false. You have done neither.








Humanity is rebellious and corrupt before a holy God, and we are given grace and the free will to take it to be counted as holy. There are two sides to the coin Cyp.

The law and How it is Fulfilled in Christ

What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?



You are back to "Prove I don't have an invisible purple unicorn on my shoulder, and if you can't than obviously, it must be there"



I'm simply saying I don't believe you have that unicorn on your shoulder.

You want me to prove it's NOT there, instead of you proving it IS there.


I am no more likely to try to prove its not there than you are to prove my unicorn is not there.

Essentially, BOTH OF US know the other's unicorn is not there, for the exact same reason. (A unicorn, really? That's ridiculous!)




My reasons for not believing in your unicorn come down to some basic premises, many of which I have presented already.

I'll come back and summarize them later, but, I'm on the road today, so, not enough time to finish the post in one shot.


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Old 06-02-2015, 02:10 PM #5550
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

1) The bible refers to events that did not happen, and, therefore, doesn't allow current known history to co-exist.

Example: World Wide Flood - There is ZERO EVIDENCE that this happened.

There are of course many individual floods that have occurred over time, but none that spanned continents, etc. The bible said the entire surface of the world was covered, which requires over 5 MILES of depth...and there's no evidence that that occurred.

So, the bible says all of earth was covered in water, and, that no living thing survived that was not on the Ark. (Let alone the logistical impossibility that Noah could GET TO everywhere on earth, and gather up all the baby dinosaurs, deep sea creatures, insects, birds, and so forth, to get them TO the ark before the rain started, etc....millions of species, from all corners of the globe, plus their food and other resources, etc...and leaving off the lack of ENOUGH water to raise sea levels by that amount...etc.)

There is ZERO evidence to support that, and, therefore, based upon that alone, you could therefore say the bible is not a historically accurate document, and, at best, a book with parables and myths.

It can still be potentially inspiring, uplifting, teach morals, etc, but, its a work of FICTION.

So, that's ONE reason I reject the bible as a work of non-fiction...and classify it as fiction.



IF it DID happen, why is there ZERO evidence to support it? Why is there ONLY evidence that CONTRADICTS it?


If the bible is NOT fiction, there would be evidence of "The Flood"....and, there is NONE.



PROVE there was a world wide flood, as described as happening in the bible, and we can move on to another issue.

If you can't prove it, lets just say the bible is therefore a work of fiction.

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Old 06-02-2015, 02:33 PM #5551
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Keep in mind that the bible is a collection of documents which came together through time, - a long time. Within that collection there is literature which reflects different genres such as history, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic letters, ect.

Your skepticism of the flood story as literal does nothing to discount the eye witness accounts in the New Testament.
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Old 06-02-2015, 03:07 PM #5552
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Keep in mind that the bible is a collection of documents which came together through time, - a long time. Within that collection there is literature which reflects different genres such as history, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic letters, ect.

Your skepticism of the flood story as literal does nothing to discount the eye witness accounts in the New Testament.
It shows the bible is fiction.

A basic premise, that God destroyed the world and Noah repopulated the planet never happened.

The conflicting accounts of what happened and the made up testimony and eye witness accounts do not prove that the new testament is any more acurate than the first.

Remember, the "Original Sin" is based on the OLD TESTAMENT

If the old testament is fiction, then, the NEW testament is based upon a work of fiction, and there WAS NO original sin to have to die (For 3 days or so) for, etc.
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