Old 05-29-2015, 03:42 PM #5521
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Whoa! InfinitusEquitas 14000th post! Congratulations IE. This is for you.





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Old 05-29-2015, 04:22 PM #5522
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Is paying a wrong back with a wrong "good", why is that good?

Is it wrong? Is it bad? How do you define the two?

See last I checked there's never been an atheist inquisition, crusade, or purges by atheists of religious people. The opposite however... history, even recent history is full of examples.

American culture is shifting toward it being advantageous to be atheist. Here's an example, this family is celebrated for it and is featured in on CNN.
The friendly atheists next door

Shifting yes. Actually there? Absolutely not. It is still vastly advantageous in both the US and even more so in the world at large to identify with a large religion.

You're free to think that but you don't know that to be true.

Fair enough.

Also not always the case, some well off Chinese want bibles to avoid oppression from their government.

Having traveled in asia recently, seen both the squalor and the cities, that's just bullshit. Well off people can damn well get a bible if they want one.
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Whoa! InfinitusEquitas 14000th post! Congratulations IE. This is for you.

EheLN-MDzrA

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Old 05-29-2015, 04:44 PM #5523
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Oh god, the time I have spent here
It looks like this thread is having a bad influence on you.

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Old 05-29-2015, 08:40 PM #5524
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

The missionaries I know at least try hard to help the people they are sent to live among. They help with food/water/agriculture, education etc....and, essentially in exchange, they try to "save them".

Its the winning of hearts and minds strategy.

The natives being helped are not begging for bibles, so much as for food, clothing and shelter, education and resources.

The MISSIONARIES are the ones begging their leaders to send bibles....if anyone....and, maybe its very localized as far as demand, but typically it seems its the church itself demanding that the bibles be distributed....and wanting more an more to do it.

They tell me what they themselves, as missionaries, beg for a lot are books and supplies to help teach people to read and write.

People who can't read don't beg for bibles.
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Old 05-30-2015, 02:02 AM #5525
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
If I had pretended to be an atheist in this thread I would have avoided much ridicule.

In the world at large, atheism is still persecuted, and in the US as well. You feel ridiculed here, sorry to be blunt, but GOOD. That's how christians have been making atheist, agnostics, and non christians feel... we... throughout history.
Is paying a wrong back with a wrong "good", why is that good?



Quote:
American culture is shifting toward it being advantageous to be atheist. Here's an example, this family is celebrated for it and is featured in on CNN.
The friendly atheists next door

Shifting yes. Actually there? Absolutely not. It is still vastly advantageous in both the US and even more so in the world at large to identify with a large religion.
Certainly not in every social circle in America but it is there. The comic has a valid point.

Is The Atheist Movement Gaining Ground? | Lifestyle, Opinion | GroundReport.com ? Latest World News & Opinions
The Decline Of Christianity In America | Pitts Report
» How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The Future Of This Nation? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
The decline of Christian America - The Hutchinson News: Columnists
America becoming less Christian, survey finds - CNN.com
'Blurring Lines': Decline in U.S. Christianity Mirrors Larger Trends - NBC News

Quote:
Having traveled in asia recently, seen both the squalor and the cities, that's just bullshit. Well off people can damn well get a bible if they want one.
They sure can, but do you know what happens if they walk into a bookstore and buy a bible. Their name gets put down on a list, which their government can use to oppress them. This is why they want bibles from us, so hey can try to worship and spread the truth unoppressed.


Quote:
The natives being helped are not begging for bibles, so much as for food, clothing and shelter, education and resources.
The established churches in Africa are asking for bibles, only 1 in 14 African Christians have their own bible, and they are asking for them. Hardly a book that drives people away as you said before.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:09 AM #5526
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A small measure of punishment is not a bad thing. Cry me a river if atheists start a crusade, but let's face it, the place where christians are persecuted, riduculed really, for holding unsubstantiated beliefs really, online.

There is also a world of difference between what you are supporting with those links - the decline of christianity - and the argument that atheism is advantegous. Refer to your own cartoon from above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
They sure can, but do you know what happens if they walk into a bookstore and buy a bible. Their name gets put down on a list, which their government can use to oppress them. This is why they want bibles from us, so hey can try to worship and spread the truth unoppressed.

And what makes you think that the bible they get from "you" is not just as easily tracked? People in asia are not so oppressed, and repressed as you seem to think, and in many places the amount of relative freedom is higher then it is here the US. The biggest difference? The lines they must not cross are much more clearly defined to them there, than they are to me and you here. Want to study the bible? Go ahead. Want to spread the gospel? No go - you can't disrupt the status quo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The established churches in Africa are asking for bibles, only 1 in 14 African Christians have their own bible, and they are asking for them. Hardly a book that drives people away as you said before.
I realize this answer is as much to teej as to me, but think about it... it's the church that is asking for the books, and not the people. That's a red flag in priorities.

Does every christian actually need a bible? If they are very devout sure, but more likely they have other priorities to worry about... like food, and water.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:25 AM #5527
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future all bibles will have an RFID tag in them. I read somewhere they have technology now that can read them at quite a distance, they can drive down a street and read all the RFID tags in all the homes on that street.

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Old 05-30-2015, 03:37 AM #5528
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Better yet the technology is getting to the point that the tags can be embedded in the material itself, and last practically indefinitely, rather than the old school sticker or tag we're familiar with now. In the commercial market it's something high end retailers would LOVE to see. The government/law enforcement and potential sinister applications are practically endless.

Oh and in other news, the iris can now be effectively scanned from 40 meters away. Minority report anyone?

Edit:


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Old 05-30-2015, 04:09 PM #5529
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
And what makes you think that the bible they get from "you" is not just as easily tracked?
Because the Chinese government can't track bibles that get smuggled in, and they do get in. This allows the underground Churches to grow without tracked bibles or being on their list.


Quote:
I realize this answer is as much to teej as to me, but think about it... it's the church that is asking for the books, and not the people. That's a red flag in priorities.

Does every christian actually need a bible? If they are very devout sure, but more likely they have other priorities to worry about... like food, and water.
Do understand, the Church is the "people" it's not a building it's the followers of Christ, and Christ being priority number 1 it is not a red flag in priorities, but think about it... you give someone a book they ask for, they read and pray, find peace and encouragement. None of which gets in the way of them trying to take care of themselves.


Quote:
Oh and in other news, the iris can now be effectively scanned from 40 meters away. Minority report anyone?
I still think we are a ways away from those tiny spidery robots though
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:21 PM #5530
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

A lot of how people, both the religious and non-religious, feel about how they "fit into society" is based upon where they are when asking.

For example, if on an online forum for some topic that the forum is "about", say, Land Rovers...you will find overwhelming pro-Land Rover sentiment, everyone will tout the Land Rover as the only true off roader, etc...and the rest are too expensive, too frail, not tough enough, etc....

So if you say your Jeep is better, you'd be soundly booed and end up feeling as though you're alone in a sea of Rover aficionados, and that jeep owners are discriminated against, and unless you have a Rover, you'll be ostracized.

If you happen to later find an online Jeep community, you will feel as though you've suddenly gone through the looking glass, and everyone loves jeeps and scoffs at the silly Rovers.

So, on a forum where, for whatever reason, there seems to be a preponderance of those who don't see a reason to believe in supernatural explanations for things...those who DO see a reason to believe in supernatural explanations WILL feel like a minority.

In reality, this forum's make-up is far from typical relative to the USA or other countries' feelings on the subject.



What has simply occurred is a venue now exists for those who have an opinion that has historically gotten them killed or persecuted, to express those opinions.

If you wander into such a venue, sure, you might feel like you are now in a minority position, but if you step back out, you're in the majority again.


Most humans still believe in God or gods/a higher power, etc. As they become progressively better informed about how the world works, due to physics, chemistry and biology, etc, they see a growing conflict between what they were told to believe/taught to believe, and what might actually make sense.

So what MOSTLY happens is an attempt to reconcile their beliefs with their knowledge. (Its that pesky apple...)


So, they drift from ORGANIZED RELIGION's rules, to hybridized belief systems....often w/o acknowledging the drift. IE: I'm still a good Catholic, but I don't think the Pope is god's representative on earth, I don't think its a sin to think about something I would never do, I don't think its a sin to keep my family small enough to feed, clothe and fit into my house....and don't think I need to send the Vatican 10% of my income to get to heaven...I think i can go to heaven just if I'm a good person, etc...

So its not that most people are now atheists, far far from it...atheists represent a small percentage of the total population. Its more that organized religions are losing control of their "flocks" as the members become progressively less sheepish.


And, just as tobacco companies started to divest, and provide free products in third world countries, after the first world countries' populations learned enough about the hazards of tobacco to hurt sales...

...The religions went off to new uneducated/illiterate pastures to cultivate new flocks.


Again, its the ORGANIZED religions that are in this competition. The flocks (souls, etc...) are the product, and, in a pyramidal fashion...an organized religion needs a lot of new members to grow its base and profitability.

The more centralized, the higher the priority.

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Old 05-30-2015, 05:54 PM #5531
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Follower of Jesus and what the Bible says :3

There are too many Crazy "Christians" Out there. So I just associate myself as what the Bible truly says about my beliefs and go off of that.

Also Here are some examples of Christian Extremists:
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:26 PM #5532
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
A lot of how people, both the religious and non-religious, feel about how they "fit into society" is based upon where they are when asking.

For example, if on an online forum for some topic that the forum is "about", say, Land Rovers...you will find overwhelming pro-Land Rover sentiment, everyone will tout the Land Rover as the only true off roader, etc...and the rest are too expensive, too frail, not tough enough, etc....

So if you say your Jeep is better, you'd be soundly booed and end up feeling as though you're alone in a sea of Rover aficionados, and that jeep owners are discriminated against, and unless you have a Rover, you'll be ostracized.

If you happen to later find an online Jeep community, you will feel as though you've suddenly gone through the looking glass, and everyone loves jeeps and scoffs at the silly Rovers.
And if you're a Christian who lived in the former Syria or Iraq and are now in Islamic State you might find yourself without your head. If you escape to another country you will feel as though you've suddenly gone through the looking glass, and everyone loves Christians and scoffs at the silly radical Muslims.

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So, they drift from ORGANIZED RELIGION's rules, to hybridized belief systems....often w/o acknowledging the drift. IE: I'm still a good Catholic, but I don't think the Pope is god's representative on earth, I don't think its a sin to think about something I would never do, I don't think its a sin to keep my family small enough to feed, clothe and fit into my house....and don't think I need to send the Vatican 10% of my income to get to heaven...I think i can go to heaven just if I'm a good person, etc...

So its not that most people are now atheists, far far from it...atheists represent a small percentage of the total population. Its more that organized religions are losing control of their "flocks" as the members become progressively less sheepish.
People's beliefs and morals will change over long periods of time. Real religions don't control their flocks, their flocks control the religion. The ones that control their flocks are cults that will have a limited lifespan.





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And, just as tobacco companies started to divest, and provide free products in third world countries, after the first world countries' populations learned enough about the hazards of tobacco to hurt sales...

...The religions went off to new uneducated/illiterate pastures to cultivate new flocks.
I disagree with this statement. Christians are to spread the gospel to all the world, people must have the opportunity to hear and read it in every city and every nation on earth. At the same time though, anyone who will not receive us we are to shake the dust off our feet and move along, in other words, talk to those who will listen, and those who want nothing to do with you, let them be and move along.

Muslims are to spread Islam by any means possible.

Most other religions don't make much effort to spread their religion, but if you want to learn more about them they are pleased to have you.

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Old 05-30-2015, 09:38 PM #5533
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
And if you're a Christian who lived in the former Syria or Iraq and are now in Islamic State you might find yourself without your head. If you escape to another country you will feel as though you've suddenly gone through the looking glass, and everyone loves Christians and scoffs at the silly radical Muslims.



People's beliefs and morals will change over long periods of time. Real religions don't control their flocks, their flocks control the religion. The ones that control their flocks are cults that will have a limited lifespan.







I disagree with this statement. Christians are to spread the gospel to all the world, people must have the opportunity to hear and read it in every city and every nation on earth. At the same time though, anyone who will not receive us we are to shake the dust off our feet and move along, in other words, talk to those who will listen, and those who want nothing to do with you, let them be and move along.

Muslims are to spread Islam by any means possible.

Most other religions don't make much effort to spread their religion, but if you want to learn more about them they are pleased to have you.

Alan


I'm pretty sure organized religions tell the flocks what to believe, and the flocks can then either agree to believe it, or not...not the flocks don't tell the religion what to do...they ask the religion to change to meet how the flock feels...and then the religion either listens, or, it doesn't.

You are 100% correct that where you are/who you are with changes whether or not you are a minority or majority. That was my point too. If a Christian in a Christian nation surrounded by other Christians, you are in the majority...and if you are a lone Christian in a Muslim country, etc...you are in the minority.

Same for online forums. If you are at a forum where the majority doesn't believe in supernatural explanations for things...and you do, you might feel marginalized. If the forum is mostly composed of people who do believe in supernatural explanations for things, then you will feel more secure and in the majority about your opinions.



So, while Christianity has certainly used violence to spread its membership (Inquisition, etc...), and to enforce its beliefs and impose them on those with different beliefs (torture, pillories, stocks, stakes, and so forth...), it currently does not officially endorse these methods...

....while the newer and still raw Islamic faith still does use those methods that Christianity outgrew a hundred or so years ago.


The difference also includes that Islam itself is not condoning this violence, it is radicalized sects of it that are...as opposed to it having been mainstream Christianity back in its day, etc.


The end result is of course that, especially in America, where the average citizen doesn't know the difference between a radical Islamist and a Muslim, or, between say Sunni or Shiite.

They don't know that one of those two versions IS by nature militaristic and likely to use violence to impose itself on others, and, the other is not....but that groups might fluidly support whoever they thought would be of political advantage, regardless of sect, etc.


We tend to lump them all together, out of ignorance...and, the unfortunate byproduct is that we actually reinforce the radical message that we hate Islam...and that this is a holy war to save Islam, etc.


If we had the education to recognize the good guys from the bad guys, we would not all but FORCE many good guys into essentially being told they are considered the bad guys....and feeling as though they might as well be.

We artificially labeled people, marginalizing them...and just as many black people in this country had to deal with ALL of them being considered to "be the same"...some rebelled against the unfairness of that...some marginalized Muslims rebelled against the unfairness of their labels too.


We choose the way to label based upon our own agendas and prejudices.

An individual is not summed up by any one characteristic typically.

Christians are not all the same as each other, nor are all Jews, or all Muslims, etc. Every single person is different, even if they might share something with another person.

Just because Catholics and Protestants fought for ~ 30 years in Europe for example, each trying to wipe out the other...doesn't mean modern Catholics want to kill the Protestants anymore.

Same for political issues in the Middle East...sure, there have been ongoing Clampet/McCoy conflicts for centuries....but, the reality was that, generally, even Jews, Christians and Muslims, including all the various sects of each...got along fine in the Middle East until very recently....when the establishment of Israel and several other borders suddenly upset the apple cart.

THAT'S when the political entities who needed to rally the masses to fight went into the religious bucket, as politicians always do...and said to fight for GOD AND COUNTRY!

As soon as you play the God Card, its ON.

BOTH sides "Have God on Their Side", and must win, etc...and, the trouble starts.

The Radicalization of Christianity, and, later, of Islam, was used to fan the flames of war...and, well, it always works. The Religious are excellent tinder for this process....and always have been.
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Old 05-30-2015, 10:20 PM #5534
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Seems all religions start with an individual who is just highly spiritual, then they have followers and followers of the followers ad infinitum, then the organizations become more about power than the people or the message itself.
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Old 05-31-2015, 12:10 AM #5535
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Seems all religions start with an individual who is just highly spiritual, then they have followers and followers of the followers ad infinitum, then the organizations become more about power than the people or the message itself.

You have hit a nail on the head there Sir.

There is the initial "belief"....and, those there know what it is.

After that, its those who say what it MEANT, and, then arguments over interpretations commence.

And the then the interpretations of the interpretations, and so forth.


Of course, the arguments are rarely just theoretical and scholarly...there are tendencies for them to be violent too, especially depending upon the vested interests in the outcome/investment in a particular interpretation.


For example, historically, it appears that Jesus and his followers were Jews. Jesus lived and dies Jewish. He says, at least in the bible (New Testament) that not one iota of the Jewish laws is to be changed. He is a Jewish zealot, fighting the Romans...to preserve a strict orthodox Judaism.

He never told anyone to not be Jewish, but to adhere to Judaism.


This was later "interpreted" by those he was fighting against, the one's who were reported to crucify him, etc....as a new religion he was founding. One that did not ask for people to rebel against authority and follow only god, but one that asked people to pay even more taxes than they were asked for.

To turn the other cheek.

The meek will inherit the earth.

This life is a test you must pass, a trial. You must bear it...happily.

You will be happy after you die and go to heaven, unless you don't do what we say....and then you are tortured for all eternity instead.

It becomes a very popular religion to have subjects follow, for obvious reasons...and the Roman's creation became a new religion in many other countries for obvious reasons.

"State Religion" becomes a new concept. The power to rule becomes tied to divine right in a new and more powerful way, in that instead of a Sun God + individual other deities, for different powers, there was HUMAN who REPRESENTED the god, and vouched for the divine right of the rulers....even sending emissaries, etc, to do the coronations, etc.

Politics and religion were joined even more strongly than ever before, in a synergistic manner, rather than one ONLY existing to bolster the other...they eventually bolstered each other.

By the time of the dark ages, it was becoming pretty obvious that this was a horrifically bad way to run things...and new advancements in science were straining the credibility of the Church in new ways, etc....

So some new "interpretations" were eventually made to adjust, and, viola, the Renaissance, and so forth.


So religions are a work in progress, and, they do tend to go from those initial, perhaps even sincere beliefs...and evolve into whatever seems to keep them in power.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:11 PM #5536
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You have hit a nail on the head there Sir.

There is the initial "belief"....and, those there know what it is.

After that, its those who say what it MEANT, and, then arguments over interpretations commence.

And the then the interpretations of the interpretations, and so forth.


Of course, the arguments are rarely just theoretical and scholarly...there are tendencies for them to be violent too, especially depending upon the vested interests in the outcome/investment in a particular interpretation.
Claim: We don't have the original New Testament manuscripts. We only have copies of copies of copies, so we have no idea if what we now have is what the original manuscripts said.
Short Response: While we don't have the originals, we have an abundance of copies, including a good number of early ones, which enable us to reconstruct the likely original text with a considerable degree of confidence. There is no good reason to believe that significant changes crept in so early in the copying process that they left no trace of the original reading in the copies available to us today.


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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
For example, historically, it appears that Jesus and his followers were Jews. Jesus lived and dies Jewish. He says, at least in the bible (New Testament) that not one iota of the Jewish laws is to be changed. He is a Jewish zealot, fighting the Romans...to preserve a strict orthodox Judaism.

He never told anyone to not be Jewish, but to adhere to Judaism.

This is not true...

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


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but one that asked people to pay even more taxes than they were asked for.
This is also not true, biblically Christians are to pay the taxes they owe, there is no obligation to pay anything more.
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