Old 05-27-2015, 11:16 AM #5505
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If by improbable, you mean it is improbable in the same way the sun being expected to rise in the morning is not, yes.
Pretty much, yeah. I was going to edit my post saying that "improbable" is me being generous but meh


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Old 05-27-2015, 12:34 PM #5506
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I think a lot comes down to those who believe in the supernatural vs those who do not.

If you believe in a supernatural being (or beings) that existed before the universe, created the universe, etc...and in angels and demons and fairies and sprites and leprechauns, magic, etc....then, you'd fall into the camp of those believing in the supernatural.

If you believe there are natural explanations for things that do not involve the supernatural, even if those explanations are still unknown, then you fall into the camp of those who do not believe in the supernatural.

There's a relative scale from what I can see out there...so, within all the "camps" are sub-divisions where SOME natural, and SOME supernatural beliefs exist within the same individual members.
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:33 PM #5507
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think a lot comes down to those who believe in the supernatural vs those who do not.
Yes quite right and not everyone or every group will agree on what is supernatural.

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If you believe in a supernatural being (or beings) that existed before the universe, created the universe, etc...and in angels and demons and fairies and sprites and leprechauns, magic, etc....then, you'd fall into the camp of those believing in the supernatural.
I have had plenty of experience talking to people that believe in the supernatural, but I don't know that I have ever met anyone who believes in all of it. Not many believe in fairies, sprites, and leprechauns. Beliefs vary not just by the persons religion/church, but also by what part of the world they're from, and what they experience durring their lifetime. I can say I once heard something screaming like a banshee in the middle of the night in the forest, and I thought what the hell is that? And I assumed it was some animal I never heard before. If I was from Ireland I might have said that's a banshee and someone near by is about to die, but that thought didn't occur to me at the time because I doubt very much that banshees exist.

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If you believe there are natural explanations for things that do not involve the supernatural, even if those explanations are still unknown, then you fall into the camp of those who do not believe in the supernatural.
It is very unfortunate that most scientists don't want to investigate anything that most consider supernatural or paranormal even in cases where there is some real phenomenon taking place that hasn't been explained. Instead we have people that claim to be paranormal investigators, and ghost hunters, UFO investigators, people looking for Bigfoot, etc. almost none of them have a scientific background or education. There have been quite a few medical doctors investigate NDEs, but other than that not much real science. It will always take one person to investigate and discover something and prove it beyond any doubt.

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There's a relative scale from what I can see out there...so, within all the "camps" are sub-divisions where SOME natural, and SOME supernatural beliefs exist within the same individual members.
Yes I think this applies to all but a very few.

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Old 05-27-2015, 05:03 PM #5508
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I think a lot comes down to those who believe in the supernatural vs those who do not.

If you believe in a supernatural being (or beings) that existed before the universe, created the universe, etc...and in angels and demons and fairies and sprites and leprechauns, magic, etc....then, you'd fall into the camp of those believing in the supernatural.

If you believe there are natural explanations for things that do not involve the supernatural, even if those explanations are still unknown, then you fall into the camp of those who do not believe in the supernatural.

There's a relative scale from what I can see out there...so, within all the "camps" are sub-divisions where SOME natural, and SOME supernatural beliefs exist within the same individual members.
Yup. I've seen some atheists being criticized for believing in the supernatural, for example ghosts or extrasensory projection, even though the definition of the word (referring to the word "atheist") says nothing about that. It is pretty absurd though, I have to admit.
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Old 05-27-2015, 06:47 PM #5509
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

PEOPLE can be absurd I think.



To filter for belief in the supernatural, all you have to do is evaluate if you think there is a higher power or a creator entity.

If you think there is, as THAT IS SUPERNATURAL, then, you believe in the supernatural.

If you believe that there is something beyond what is, or will be, explained by natural phenomenon, then, you do NOT believe what is natural, you believe what is BEYOND THAT, IE: the SUPERnatural.


Once you have established that you do NOT believe in other than natural explanations, its all a question of degree as to WHAT supernatural beliefs you DO have.

Maybe you believe in immortal all powerful beings who created the universe, but not in the magic it would require for them to exist and do so.

Maybe you believe in the magic needed to do so, but that human magicians are just doing illusions and not REAL magic.

Maybe you believe human magicians ARE able to do real magic, but, have decided that the magic is good (white magic) or bad (black magic)...and that they draw their magic powers from the higher powers you believe exist, or, from OTHER higher powers that you ALSO believe exist, that are in conflict (good vs bad, etc...)

Maybe you believe in magic, but believe its only bad, or, only good...but not in say, magic pixie dust.

Or maybe you believe in magic pixie dust, but not Leprechauns.

Or maybe you don't believe in the kind of magic used for tricks, but DO believe in the magic needed to make thinking something actually happen.

The magic that makes things happen you believe in might make your team you're watching on TV win the baseball game, or cure a sick person you heard about and sent positive vibes or prayers to, etc.

And so forth.

Its all about the DEGREE of supernatural belief.

Everyone has their OWN personal filter that says, "I believe in this supernatural scenario, but THAT ONE is just stupid"....or, the filter is so strict is says "There are NO supernatural scenarios, EVERYTHING has a natural explanation".


So, You might find humans who believe in Santa Claus, but scoff at the fools who believe in the tooth fairy.

You might find humans who believe in a creator, but who scoff at the creator needing to die to forgive his creations' descendents for allowing him to create them and trick their ancestors into wanting knowledge.

You might find humans who believe in a creator who died to forgive the descendents of the ancestors he tricked into wanting knowledge...but who encourage beliefs in Easter Bunnies and Santa Claus, THEN scoff at those who believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus...and maybe also scoff at those who believe the earth is round, or scoff at those who think the earth revolves around the sun...and so forth....as told to believe by the leaders who say that GOD tells them the truth, and that you must listen to them and obey them because they represent god here on earth.

Some may even start making rules up about how to HAVE beliefs...and what OTHERS are allowed to believe.

They may extend their power by saying "These are the words of GOD!" And if the filters are not buying it..."OK, these are the words of GOD that we heard whispered into our ears, and wrote down word for word so that they are exactly what God said!" And if the filters are still being pesky..."OK, we made some typos and some literary license decisions, added some stuff we're sure God meant to say/took out some stuff he said but we didn't think made good sermon material, made some changes to get along with the political forces here and there...but, other than that, "ITS THE WORD OF GOD!!!"

They may not just scoff, they might actually kill or torture others until they convert to the beliefs that are required to survive the ordeal, etc.

They might say "IF you have these beliefs, you must dress like this, speak like this and do the following rituals".

With the reason being that the supernatural power requires it, or else.




And, then, you have to study every single possible supernatural power, and, what the followers of these supernatural powers say are the ONLY WAY to please this power, and, then change how you dress, what you do, and any remaining beliefs or practices that might be in conflict...so that, 1) YOU CHOSE THE RIGHT ONE, and, 2) Worship in the way you need to to please this power.

OR,

You just believe whatever your parent's believed, because, after all, you trust their judgement in all matters...and always believed everything they did....like the vast majority of humans.

So, as your parent's were right about every single thing, always, and could not be wrong...you believe in whatever supernatural power they do, and, that power's associated rules....and are therefore assured of believing in the right supernatural power, in the right way.

This works for all denominations of all religions, and, also works for what teams to root for and lots of other handy applications....not just which supernatural power to believe in and how.



The OTHER path, for beliefs in the Supernatural, is to actually NOT study ALL of them, but to decide that of what you DID check out, NONE seemed to be "right"...too many silly rules, or aspects that your filters kicked back on, etc.

These believers in the supernatural come to their own, personal conclusions about what they believe. Their beliefs might overlap some other's, and/or be totally independent. So, they still believe in the supernatural, just not the specific supernatural "sets" that formalized religions require adherence to.




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Old 05-28-2015, 04:00 PM #5510
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 05-28-2015, 04:15 PM #5511
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

English version for anyone interested
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:45 PM #5512
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Its a shame that poor priest's legs were broken so horribly, just look at them, it must hurt so badly...I'm guesing it was Irishman who did it....
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:49 PM #5513
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Its a shame that poor priest's legs were broken so horribly, just look at them, it must hurt so badly...I'm guesing it was Irishman who did it....
I assume that he suffers from poliomyelitis. Plus, look at his stomach. Obvious case of lordosis. It is almost certain that an irishman who has the gays is the one responsible for this holy priest's misfortune.

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Old 05-29-2015, 12:50 AM #5514
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Default Re: LPF's Religion




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Old 05-29-2015, 02:13 AM #5515
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

I think there's mostly religious MEH, as the vast majority of the population finds it advantageous to pretend to be religious...say like the Duggers, toe-tapping Republicans, etc.

There's no advantage to pretending to be an atheist. Politicians typically can't even get elected if suspected of it, etc.

The shift is more about more and more people not believing the absurd biblical versions of things...but still having religious feelings. People are just more skeptical of drivel they're handed...but most believe in GOD, they just don't believe in the bible the way they used to.

If the bible was believable, they would not be having these credibility issues with it....and would not be drifting off to find their own versions of what faith means to them.

Its SUCH a poorly constructed book, with so many problems, that it simply drives people away.

Historically, when essentially no one could read except the clergy, and passages would be read selectively, and, interpreted for the masses...and the masses had no clue about actual reasons for how things worked, and were actually taught that knowledge is bad, ignorance was bliss, wanting knowledge was the original sin...and so forth...it was easier to control.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:11 AM #5516
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL

I think there's mostly religious MEH, as the vast majority of the population finds it advantageous to pretend to be religious...say like the Duggers, toe-tapping Republicans, etc.

There's no advantage to pretending to be an atheist. Politicians typically can't even get elected if suspected of it, etc.

The shift is more about more and more people not believing the absurd biblical versions of things...but still having religious feelings. People are just more skeptical of drivel they're handed...but most believe in GOD, they just don't believe in the bible the way they used to.

If the bible was believable, they would not be having these credibility issues with it....and would not be drifting off to find their own versions of what faith means to them.

Its SUCH a poorly constructed book, with so many problems, that it simply drives people away.

Historically, when essentially no one could read except the clergy, and passages would be read selectively, and, interpreted for the masses...and the masses had no clue about actual reasons for how things worked, and were actually taught that knowledge is bad, ignorance was bliss, wanting knowledge was the original sin...and so forth...it was easier to control.
Well then maybe the Quran is more believable. Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion. They will outnumber us all in a few years.

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Old 05-29-2015, 10:22 AM #5517
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Well then maybe the Quran is more believable. Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion. They will outnumber us all in a few years.

Alan
That gets back to the illiterate followers and clergy being the ones who read it to them, etc...so, its not that the book is better per se, but that they are where we were in their religion's age centuries earlier.

So, sure, there are erudite members, just as there were (and are) in Christianity, but the masses are where the numbers are...and the less erudite. Even if they can read, being given one side only of a story, and in a way that inflames fervor...will still take advantage of their ignorance, and fan it into a flame.

IE: They are still burning witches and can't read, or can't read critically, and are being told this religion empowers them and will provide salvation and a better afterlife, and that they are doomed w/o it...especially as if they don't toe the line, they might get stoned to death, etc.

So its a growth year as they say in sports...

Most religions that have growth spurts use that technique to "convert" those who were reticent to join/follow as requested (Dress, behavior, thoughts...)....they make it normal for public outrage at the "Heretic" or Heretical action" to demand that the ones who did not conform be publicly humiliated or killed, tortured, etc.

If you see a neighbor who complained when a priest or Imam abused their daughter or son, be stoned to death/dragged from their beds in the middle of the night never to be seen again, pilloried/etc...and perhaps their family too....you are far less likely to open your big fat mouth and make things immediately worse for y'all.

If it becomes a crime to not rat out a possible non-believer...so, you hear a neighbor say "I'm sure god would understand if I didn't turn in my own child for not wearing (Fill in whatever silly dress rule they had...) at home...), and DON'T report the crime...someone ELSE might say they saw you overhear the admission, and, therefore YOU were now guilty of heresy too, and so forth...

...you even start to turn in your neighbors...so everyone is pretending they are the most devout, because, so are their neighbors.

Over time, especially when kids are raised that way (Parents would be idiots to tell the kids its an act...a child might slip up and expose them all), they actually assume EVERYONE feels that strongly about ADHERENCE to the religion...and sees the religion as the most important thing in their lives...and those kids in turn become parents, and grandparents, etc...and its eventually NOT a mere act of survival, its become an act of faith.

Brutally enforced religious practices are quite successful historically. When you have Inquisitions, which essentially say "Convert or Die"....a lot tend to convert...its very effective.

When tied to politics, so law and religion are intertwined, it tends to be a crime to not believe what you are told to...and, you can be punished for your crime by the government in any way at all, whatever they deem appropriate.

Conversion rates are quite rapid when the alternative might be death of you and your entire extended family, etc...as a man might be willing to die for his beliefs, but, a father will rarely force his child to die along with him for that principle. They convert to save their families, and swallow their rage.

And then the religion wins, because that father who would have chosen to die himself, is now forced to raise his kids, and grandkids with the belief that he would have died to reject....and his descendents end up forcing other fathers to make the same agonizing choice...and so forth.

As progressive generations are raised with TRUE religious fervor...those who forget how it all works and accidentally mention, out loud, that something doesn't make sense...and incur the community's wrath, are a teeny minority.

Beliefs that are a product of that practice become so ingrained into the society that even when another political force takes over and demands a new religion be followed, starting the cycle again...the brain washed believers will hang on, only to be turned in for their crimes by their children or grandchildren, etc....who in turn continue the cycle for the new regime.

When a government collapses, and there's no longer enforcement...those same accidental "Hey, this makes no sense" people, DON'T get stoned to death all the time, because the pressure to act like you think your neighbors will is abated.

Some of the brainwashed will of course cling to their beliefs, teach those beliefs to their children, and so forth....even w/o enforcement....but, even they will tend to stray a little, and say things like, "well, if the priest says I can't use birth control, let HIM pay to raise the 7th kid..."but still "Be a good Catholic" in their own minds...and so forth...because they are free to decide what they believe w/o being told what they MUST believe.

So, Islam is in its early stages yet...and is violent and intolerant as earlier Christianity for example was...multiplied by the ease of modern enforcement compared to the old days.


If history works out as it typically does...societies run on religious principles become progressively unable to provide for the country, and, collapse...but it can take a very very long time when they are still conquering and not just running things.

They also tend to be virus-like, in that a new virus often kills its host...which in turn leaves the virus with no where to live...so progressive strains of viruses tend to select for those that are less likely to kill or even incapacitate their hosts.

AIDS in people is still pretty deadly. Feline AIDS is like a common cold....its been around a lot longer.

Last edited by Teej; 05-29-2015 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 05-29-2015, 02:58 PM #5518
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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There's no advantage to pretending to be an atheist.
If I had pretended to be an atheist in this thread I would have avoided much ridicule.


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If the bible was believable, they would not be having these credibility issues with it....and would not be drifting off to find their own versions of what faith means to them.
Personally, the more I've seriously studied the bible the more grounded my faith has become.

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Its SUCH a poorly constructed book, with so many problems, that it simply drives people away.
If this were true people in China and Africa wouldn't be literally begging for more bibles to be brought to them by missionaries.

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Historically, when essentially no one could read except the clergy, and passages would be read selectively, and, interpreted for the masses...and the masses had no clue about actual reasons for how things worked, and were actually taught that knowledge is bad, ignorance was bliss, wanting knowledge was the original sin...and so forth...it was easier to control.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:13 PM #5519
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If I had pretended to be an atheist in this thread I would have avoided much ridicule.

In the world at large, atheism is still persecuted, and in the US as well. You feel ridiculed here, sorry to be blunt, but GOOD. That's how christians have been making atheist, agnostics, and non christians feel... we... throughout history.


Personally, the more I've seriously studied the bible the more grounded my faith has become.

Textbook confirmation bias.

If this were true people in China and Africa wouldn't be literally begging for more bibles to be brought to them by missionaries.

Yup, and these would be the same people that are begging and in need of other things, like clean water, and enough food to eat. Send them books on scientology and that "religion" would grow too.

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Given the guy spread knowledge, however arguable that knowledge itself, maybe you should be thanking the Satan/serpent who bought us out if ignorance instead? After all, Tyndale went against the church in making the translation.
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:36 PM #5520
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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In the world at large, atheism is still persecuted, and in the US as well. You feel ridiculed here, sorry to be blunt, but GOOD. That's how christians have been making atheist, agnostics, and non christians feel... we... throughout history.
Is paying a wrong back with a wrong "good", why is that good?

American culture is shifting toward it being advantageous to be atheist. Here's an example, this family is celebrated for it and is featured in on CNN.
The friendly atheists next door

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Textbook confirmation bias.
You're free to think that but you don't know that to be true.

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Yup, and these would be the same people that are begging and in need of other things, like clean water, and enough food to eat. Send them books on scientology and that "religion" would grow too.
Also not always the case, some well off Chinese want bibles to avoid oppression from their government.
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