Old 05-17-2015, 02:10 AM #5489
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
what Jesus did for us
It wasn't even a sacrifice. He fucking lives forever, and he lost A WEEKEND.
3days out of infinity is mathematically zero sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
what Jesus did for us... there is evidence, solid and true evidence.


That's fantastic! Just collect that evidence of yours, get it peer-reviewed, and collect your Nobel prize.
When that happens, I'll be the first to apologize.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
you reject things with a hint of inaccuracy
No, not necessarily. If someone were to say "2+2=4, the sky is blue, and I can levitate objects with my mind", It would be silly to reject all premises put forth. I would, however, question more thoroughly everything this individual were to say from now on. I value an argument based on its merit, not on who made the argument. The opposite is true with you and your bible.


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Old 05-17-2015, 02:35 AM #5490
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It wasn't even a sacrifice. He fucking lives forever, and he lost A WEEKEND.
3days out of infinity is mathematically zero sacrifice.





That's fantastic! Just collect that evidence of yours, get it peer-reviewed, and collect your Nobel prize.
When that happens, I'll be the first to apologize.



No, not necessarily. If someone were to say "2+2=4, the sky is blue, and I can levitate objects with my mind", It would be silly to reject all premises put forth. I would, however, question more thoroughly everything this individual were to say from now on. I value an argument based on its merit, not on who made the argument. The opposite is true with you and your bible.
I can create levity with my mind, does that count?

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Old 05-17-2015, 03:08 AM #5491
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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That's fantastic! Just collect that evidence of yours, get it peer-reviewed, and collect your Nobel prize.
When that happens, I'll be the first to apologize.
You mean the evidence of scripture, historical, and archeological evidence that validates the bible. Then the huge amount of biblical scholars that have reviewed and devoted their studies to such. It's been done, belief in Jesus is far from irrational as you like to portray it.
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Old 05-17-2015, 04:00 AM #5492
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
the evidence of scripture


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
the huge amount of biblical scholars...
Of course, that means they "knew" the answer before they even went looking.

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Old 05-17-2015, 01:41 PM #5493
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah, the bible has no facts per se. It has stories, and, some stories sound like some other ancient societies' stories, except the times the stories were supposed to have happened doesn't coincide, so that its merely one group copying or retelling the older story.

There are ancient events that are referred to in the bible, such as "the flood" for example, but, there is NO evidence that there was THAT flood....merely lots of floods, at different times, in different places, and, importantly, at different times.

ALL of the "evidence" of the biblical flood has been shown to be seriously flawed...with no shadows of doubt. Its total BS, pure and simple, with no exceptions.

Archaeology and other fields of science can confirm that there were ancient peoples, and, early Christians, but the names are different, who they were, and what they did were different, where they were was different, and so forth.

The Churches OWN scholars conclude that there were many versions of "the bible", and, they have DIFFERENT STORIES, with overlaps of course, but, written so the tone and message reflected the needs of the times, such as pleasing kings in power, etc.

So, there is no one "bible" that has "truths". There are many many bibles, there were over a THOUSAND known versions of the King James alone for example. (King James was the King that THAT bible series was paid for by, and written to please).

NONE of them have anything but a coincidental reference to actual events though...and are essentially inventions of the Catholic Church that were then changed to reflect each new generation of biblical writer's agendas.
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Old 05-18-2015, 03:25 AM #5494
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You have to ask yourself - is Genesis a historical and scientific text, or
Quote:
If readers recognize, for example, that cosmogonies are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be, but rather are theological texts that explain the world as it is, then readers avoid misinterpreting the text and forcing it to say things it does not convey.
Quote:
Claim: Early Christianty was wildly diverse, with no group having a legitimate claim to the "true" form of Christianity.

Short Response: Not True. Early Christianity was widespread and unified in all the core essentials, and any deviation from the true gospel was identified as heretical and as deviating from the commonly received apostolic teaching from the beginning. Of the groups often noted as early and contending, only the Ebionites can be shown to be early. The Marcionites and Gnostics arose later.
Quote:
Claim: Many of the New Testament books were not really written by the authors to whom they were ascribed, despite internal claims of the books themselves. Instead, they were forged.

Short Response: There is no compelling reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the New Testament writings to its respective authors, whether Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (gospels), or Paul Peter, James, Jude, and John (Letters and Revelation). Forgery was widely frowned upon by Christians in the first century. The statistics of different vocabulary or theological emphases in particular books attributed to the same author don't prove forgery. Instead, the range of vocabulary and theological emphases is more likely due to other factors, such as the occasion and context of the original recipients, the specific topics addressed, the normal variation in vocabulary used by authors over time, the use of traditional materials and forms in language distinct from the author, and the possible use of a secretary.
Quote:
Claim: There are more variants in the New Testament manuscripts then there are words in the entire New Testament.

Short Response: The vast majority of New Testament variants are completely inconsequential and involve trivial matters such as spelling errors, easy-to-spot nonsense readings, variation in word order, or Greek article changes. The abundance of manuscripts is a plus not a minus, because it enables us to reconstruct the original wording with all the more confidence. The textual situation for the New Testament is miles ahead of other classical literature and their textual evidence
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Old 05-18-2015, 04:23 AM #5495
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yep, and yet, some still hold a strong faith. Belief doesn't necessarily need to be supported by fact, unfortunately for too many of us.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:49 AM #5496
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You have to ask yourself - is Genesis a historical and scientific text, or

Quote:
If readers recognize, for example, that cosmogonies are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be, but rather are theological texts that explain the world as it is, then readers avoid misinterpreting the text and forcing it to say things it does not convey.

Quote:
Claim: Early Christianty was wildly diverse, with no group having a legitimate claim to the "true" form of Christianity.

Short Response: Not True. Early Christianity was widespread and unified in all the core essentials, and any deviation from the true gospel was identified as heretical and as deviating from the commonly received apostolic teaching from the beginning. Of the groups often noted as early and contending, only the Ebionites can be shown to be early. The Marcionites and Gnostics arose later.
Quote:
Claim: Many of the New Testament books were not really written by the authors to whom they were ascribed, despite internal claims of the books themselves. Instead, they were forged.

Short Response: There is no compelling reason to doubt the traditional attribution of the New Testament writings to its respective authors, whether Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (gospels), or Paul Peter, James, Jude, and John (Letters and Revelation). Forgery was widely frowned upon by Christians in the first century. The statistics of different vocabulary or theological emphases in particular books attributed to the same author don't prove forgery. Instead, the range of vocabulary and theological emphases is more likely due to other factors, such as the occasion and context of the original recipients, the specific topics addressed, the normal variation in vocabulary used by authors over time, the use of traditional materials and forms in language distinct from the author, and the possible use of a secretary.


Quote:
Claim: There are more variants in the New Testament manuscripts then there are words in the entire New Testament.

Short Response: The vast majority of New Testament variants are completely inconsequential and involve trivial matters such as spelling errors, easy-to-spot nonsense readings, variation in word order, or Greek article changes. The abundance of manuscripts is a plus not a minus, because it enables us to reconstruct the original wording with all the more confidence. The textual situation for the New Testament is miles ahead of other classical literature and their textual evidence


Too many propaganda blurbs in a row to address fully, but, in a nut shell:

If you say the gospel is always the same except for typos, why were they fighting about what to say in the council of Nicaea?

They still were wrestling with whether Jesus was a son of god, or a god, or a man, etc....a long time after "Christianity" existed.

Why were there hundreds of men involved in writing the King James Bible? Why were they paid by KING JAMES to write it? What changes did they make to please the king?

Its all well documented, its not documented by atheists or witches, its documented by the Church.

There are MANY compelling reasons to question the attribution of the gospels, and, those are discussed in length, by CHURCH scholars.


Yes, the more modern writers of the gospels had the biblical characters say things they would not have said, because they were either translating old texts from old languages, or, because they wanted them to say something different.

Some made changes because they felt that the originals were weak, and wanted to make them more beautiful, or to make kings more holy...because kings wanted to be sure their subjects knew that they were kings because god wanted them to rule over those subjects.

There are a lot of forgeries, including the Shroud of Turin, assorted holy relics, etc, that the church forged to create items that would help motivate followers, as these sorts of things were considered very powerful back then.

They were not really forging biblical passages, because, no gospels were actually written by disciples anyway...ALL were written many years later after their death, and "attributed" to them.

To forge a passage, they'd have to claim that for example Jesus wrote this himself in his own hand.

Instead, they said that Jesus saw this or that and said this or that, etc....according to this disciple or that one. As the accounts are in conflict on even large issues, such as who was at "the mount" and its occurrence before or after other events, etc...its fairly obvious that no one was there at all, and that its a bunch of stories patched together from earlier myths, such as from India, etc, and then re-told with biblical characters.

IE: Indian or Mesopotamian, etc, hero's walked on water, washed the feet of the downtrodden, cured leprosy and blindness, bad legs, etc, told trite words of wisdom, etc...so did Jesus et all.


So, there's nothing real in the bible....its a BOOK.


You say a problem is people forcing it to say things that are not in it, and, I agree. I have to disagree about what you think comogonies are, as they are what you say they are not....in all modern uses of the word.



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Old 05-18-2015, 09:29 PM #5497
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
cosmogonies are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be
wtf are you talking about? That's EXACTLY what a cosmogony is.

"Cosmogony is any model concerning the origin of the cosmos"
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:42 AM #5498
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Claim: Orthodoxy which was the product of much later church councils, did not exist in the first century: "For example, none of the apostles claimed Jesus was 'fully God and fully man,' and that he was 'begotten not made of one substance with the Father,' as the forth-century Nicene Creed maintained. The victorious group called itself the orthodox"

Short Response: If one defines "orthodoxy" as a product of the formulation of forth-century church councils, then of course orthodoxy is a forth-century phenomenon. This is circular reasoning. But if "orthodoxy" is defined as the church's commonly agreed-upon teaching concerning the saving significance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then this core gospel message was clearly present in the first century, not only in the forth century. One can see this as early as 1 Corinthians 15:3-5: Romans 1:2-4; 3:19-26; Hebrews 1:1-14; and Ephesians 2:8-10, all works written long before the forth century.

The author in the book I was quoting was referring to cosmogonies such as the creation story in Genesis. Was that really not evident in the bit I quoted?
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:21 AM #5499
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That doesn't make any sense either.

"the story in the bible about how the world came to be is not a story of how the world came to be"
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:24 AM #5500
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The author in the book I was quoting was referring to cosmogonies such as the creation story in Genesis. Was that really not evident in the bit I quoted?
Saying what cosmologies were not, except, saying that what they WERE was what they were not, was the issue....not where you got the info, just that it was incorrect.


Sidebar:

So, the various scholars of native beliefs might look at their cosmology, and, lets say the belief was that the sun gave birth to the earth and the earth gave birth to the moon....

...or the scholars might look at the cosmology of another group, lets say one that believes everything was created by an infinite space being with infinite powers, but it took 7 days, and he had a son who was himself go through 9 months of gestation in a human womb, had her give birth to himself, then a few decades later, die for everyone else's sins, and the sin of concern, that he had to DIE FOR (For ~ 3 days) was due to being distantly related to someone else that he made (IE: Their ancestor, made by him) to not know right from wrong, making a talking snake to trick them into doing something wrong (hardly a problem, as he made them not KNOW right from wrong...)...

So he could punish their descendants for ever....for wanting KNOWLEDGE (THAT was the thing they were not supposed to have, because knowledge was "wrong" and a "sin" - and you should NOT WANT KNOWLEDGE, its EVIL!).

He then died (for ~ 3days) for their sins (Maybe less than 3 days, if he was actually dead at all...because, if dead, then, for that time, there was no god...)

and if no god for those three days, who resurrected him?

And if he resurrected himself, he wasn't really dead, or, he's not also god, etc...so:

If he was god, then, god died...and, was not immortal.

If he was resurrected, then, he wasn't god...and, only died for a few days. If he wasn't really dead, he didn't die for anyone's sins.

...AND the exact punishment continued anyway....even though he sort of "died for it" (Men had to work and woman had to have painful childbirths...), but, they DID get to keep "the knowledge"....


....that he tricked them into getting....so he could forgive them for it by dying....


So, its all a jumble of gobbedly gook....but a minority of people on earth still sort of believe it.


Of course, in the USA, about a fourth of the population didn't know that the Earth revolved around the Sun....so, its not THAT shocking. (Knowledge is bad and evil, kill the elitist scholars!)




So, the scholars can compare the Sun giving birth the the earth, and the earth to the moon, and say, well, at least we know that the stuff of stars IS what the planets came from, and, we DO know that the moon was a chunk knocked off the earth....so, that cosmology at least makes a little sense from a chronological standpoint.

They might look at the mess of that OTHER cosmology, and decide that even the authors of it had no clue, and just be nice to those natives with that primitive belief system so that they don't upset them. (Learning and knowledge upset them)





As far as "Orthodoxy", its doesn't have a specific meaning in of itself, but generally, in Christianity, refers to the period before the First Council of Nicaea (~ 325 AD). The practices, etc, of many of these early Christians, were persecuted as heresy AFTER Nicaea, as it wasn't until the Councils that they stopped using the Jewish Bible as Holy, and started writing the New Testament, pinning down if Jesus was a rebel fighter or a peace loving dove, was a man, or a god, etc....and getting rid of/killing anyone at the Council who disagreed with their (Emperor Constantine, etc's) final ruling on it.

Last edited by Teej; 05-27-2015 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:57 AM #5501
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 05-27-2015, 09:07 AM #5502
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Me thinks most if not all of religion are based entirely upon human works, yet, I still think it is very possible there be a "God", just not in the way religions teach it. I realize using a religious term like "God" when writing this is a contradiction when I say all of religion is entirely human works but I have no other word to use for such.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:58 AM #5503
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Me thinks most if not all of religion are based entirely upon human works, yet, I still think it is very possible there be a "God", just not in the way religions teach it. I realize using a religious term like "God" when writing this is a contradiction when I say all of religion is entirely human works but I have no other word to use for such.
Maybe refer to it as a "supernatural entity"? Or a "divine being" or something like that.

Well, religions make positive and specific claims about God. That's why every God in every "Holy" book is falsifiable. However since, by definition, God is a supernatural entity that's supposed to be "out of this world", he/she/it is not observable nor testable. Therefore he/she/it is not subject to science. This means that the question "Does God exist?" is one that science simply doesn't care to answer.

So yeah, the existence of a supernatural entity cannot be proven nor disproved, but I believe the logical thing to do is dismiss all the positive claims regarding it and consider it an improbable scenario of the beginning of the Universe
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:06 AM #5504
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constandinos97 View Post
Maybe refer to it as a "supernatural entity"? Or a "divine being" or something like that.

Well, religions make positive and specific claims about God. That's why every God in every "Holy" book is falsifiable. However since, by definition, God is a supernatural entity that's supposed to be "out of this world", he/she/it is not observable nor testable. Therefore he/she/it is not subject to science. This means that the question "Does God exist?" is one that science simply doesn't care to answer.

So yeah, the existence of a supernatural entity cannot be proven nor disproved, but I believe the logical thing to do is dismiss all the positive claims regarding it and consider it an improbable scenario of the beginning of the Universe
If by improbable, you mean it is improbable in the same way the sun being expected to rise in the morning is not, yes.

Last edited by Teej; 05-27-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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