Old 04-07-2015, 10:19 PM #5425
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yay for endocannibalism !


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Old 04-07-2015, 10:19 PM #5426
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

"It" is the domain in which we exist. We did not create gravity, we did not create magnetism, we did not create other forces or constants out there. The most we can do is observe, simulate, emulate - but not create the force which is already present, nor truly answer the question, why or how it came to be.

science = search for truth, using the scientific method. Which still boils down to ?s . The moment that man has reached a verdict , the question ends. But so does the progression of any real truths. Man makes the verdict for man regarding science, however to believe that verdict is universally compliant makes men ignorant. We think therefore we know is a mindset that scientifically minded individuals fall victim too frequently. What if we know nothing, and the reason why we have not advanced to the stars is due to our lack of reason when observing those things we are so convinced that we know through the science we have created around them.

I used the chaos theory in its proper term. Every example you used is flawed: 1) there is no deck of cards in nature, this is man made. 2) Mathematics - while it can be applied to everything in science, is also man made. Einstein proved that his math worked for the applications he applied them to - before that, the math wasn't there. But all these mathematics are modular , they will always apply around things which exist, and not necessarily be correct or universal in their application.

Order is everywhere. If you drop a bucket of water into a hole, there is order. The water did not turn into wine - it remained water. It didn't diminish, it did not dissipate. The plate you dropped , was fashioned by man using raw materials. It broke - but the sum of it's parts remain present. We can beat it - grind it into a pulp, melt it, but it's sum still remains. If we burn it - some of it will change, but it will be reordered to a different chemical composition. That change in composition shows that the molecules are not in chaos, but in order. This same effect can be seen in a nuclear explosion. The particles reorder over time - not spark off into chaos indefinitely. And as far as chaos theory being applied to weather models and maps - perhaps that's why forecasters are so bad at what they do :P ; you're right about the methodology being put into weather models - but incorrect about it's science. Most of the data relies on ordered calculations rather than random chaos data. Wind velocity, water vapor, high and low fronts, etc.. All of these are based on ordered data, and not chaos data.

Finally - sugar, despite where you dump it; would have remained sugar. If you would have drank that coffee with sugar - the composition would have changed, by order not by chaos. You wouldn't have drank the coffee then watched your atoms dissolve into nothingness just because you didn't want sugar in it. It would have been reordered in your body to a composition which it could use, by natural process.

Lets take your sand question as a final example. Suppose we take one grain of sand and mark it, track it for a week. Use that data and try to model where the grain of sand will be in a few days after the data has been calculated in our model. Does that mean, because we found no relevant cycle or order in the movements of this sand grain - that there isn't one? Or could it mean that the data in our model is not extended enough to see there is a pattern and cycle. One needs to ONLY look in the cycles, orbits, galaxies, and patterns of symmetry in the universe to see - there is order. If a raging fireball comes out of the skies and wipes out all life as we know it, on this planet. We will point to the skies and say "It is all chaos" (or at least in a hypothetical sense, provided there is someone left to do so).. Yet it has affected nothing in the grand scheme of the cosmos.

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Old 04-07-2015, 11:59 PM #5427
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The few times I've been too church*, I've never done the bread and wine thing.
You'd have gone straight to hell if you had!

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:30 AM #5428
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And probably caught a cold too.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:22 AM #5429
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Is the Oasis guy (He just posted above a bit again...) the one with the rock bullet scam/tracking link hidden in his posts?
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:26 AM #5430
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OASIS Founder View Post
"It" is the domain in which we exist. We did not create gravity, we did not create magnetism, we did not create other forces or constants out there. The most we can do is observe, simulate, emulate - but not create the force which is already present, nor truly answer the question, why or how it came to be.

science = search for truth, using the scientific method. Which still boils down to ?s . The moment that man has reached a verdict , the question ends. But so does the progression of any real truths. Man makes the verdict for man regarding science, however to believe that verdict is universally compliant makes men ignorant. We think therefore we know is a mindset that scientifically minded individuals fall victim too frequently. What if we know nothing, and the reason why we have not advanced to the stars is due to our lack of reason when observing those things we are so convinced that we know through the science we have created around them.

I used the chaos theory in its proper term. Every example you used is flawed: 1) there is no deck of cards in nature, this is man made. 2) Mathematics - while it can be applied to everything in science, is also man made. Einstein proved that his math worked for the applications he applied them to - before that, the math wasn't there. But all these mathematics are modular , they will always apply around things which exist, and not necessarily be correct or universal in their application.

Order is everywhere. If you drop a bucket of water into a hole, there is order. The water did not turn into wine - it remained water. It didn't diminish, it did not dissipate. The plate you dropped , was fashioned by man using raw materials. It broke - but the sum of it's parts remain present. We can beat it - grind it into a pulp, melt it, but it's sum still remains. If we burn it - some of it will change, but it will be reordered to a different chemical composition. That change in composition shows that the molecules are not in chaos, but in order. This same effect can be seen in a nuclear explosion. The particles reorder over time - not spark off into chaos indefinitely. And as far as chaos theory being applied to weather models and maps - perhaps that's why forecasters are so bad at what they do :P ; you're right about the methodology being put into weather models - but incorrect about it's science. Most of the data relies on ordered calculations rather than random chaos data. Wind velocity, water vapor, high and low fronts, etc.. All of these are based on ordered data, and not chaos data.

Finally - sugar, despite where you dump it; would have remained sugar. If you would have drank that coffee with sugar - the composition would have changed, by order not by chaos. You wouldn't have drank the coffee then watched your atoms dissolve into nothingness just because you didn't want sugar in it. It would have been reordered in your body to a composition which it could use, by natural process.

Lets take your sand question as a final example. Suppose we take one grain of sand and mark it, track it for a week. Use that data and try to model where the grain of sand will be in a few days after the data has been calculated in our model. Does that mean, because we found no relevant cycle or order in the movements of this sand grain - that there isn't one? Or could it mean that the data in our model is not extended enough to see there is a pattern and cycle. One needs to ONLY look in the cycles, orbits, galaxies, and patterns of symmetry in the universe to see - there is order. If a raging fireball comes out of the skies and wipes out all life as we know it, on this planet. We will point to the skies and say "It is all chaos" (or at least in a hypothetical sense, provided there is someone left to do so).. Yet it has affected nothing in the grand scheme of the cosmos.
But your overall point has no meaning, and you are "correcting things" without addressing what was wrong with what you said in the first place.

IE: You make some statements, pretend they apply, then make assumptions based upon them.

The closest thing to a point may be that you seem to have a problem if math can be used to figure things out?

And, if math can be used to figure things out, then, because man made math, they don't count?



If you are saying you can pour water into a hole, and THAT'S "Order", what is the basis for that?

That the water IS in the shape of the hole, or, that if you pour water into a hole, you get water in a hole?

Does that need to be said?



And despite SAYING you understand chaos, you are not referring to it differently than Jeff G.

Your "definition" of "Order" is so vague as to include almost anything....rendering it meaningless. Essentially, if I do anything, and something happens, that's order.



Are you just posting so your rock bullet thing hidden in your post gets hits?

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Old 04-08-2015, 01:59 AM #5431
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
In theory he would qualify as unworthy, although weather or not anyone should be denied communion is one of the things Christians disagree on. Once it has been blessed/transubstantiated then it is considered holy and some believe it shouldn't be touched by those unworthy.

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Is the Oasis guy (He just posted above a bit again...) the one with the rock bullet scam/tracking link hidden in his posts?
No he is not one of those.

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Old 04-08-2015, 02:02 AM #5432
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by OASIS Founder View Post
science = search for truth, using the scientific method. Which still boils down to ?s . The moment that man has reached a verdict , the question ends.
No. It does not.

The verdict, the answer, is only accepted until a better answer can be found, and if it contradicts an older understanding, a true scientist, or any rational person (I hope) would accept that better answer.

Highly suggest reading this: http://i.imgur.com/J2py8HU.png and then your own post again.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:30 PM #5433
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Teej & Cyp

In your typical fashion you make plenty of effort to tear down Nagel, which is fine of course, your arguments are valid enough, but no time spent on answering the question.



That link was just to setup a framework of the idea for you to form your own response to the question. There are times you guys seem so heavy laden with pessimism that there is no true back and forth discussion, just your criticisms of others beliefs.

If either of you have a classifiable worldview please state it or define your own so we know where your coming from. Then I would be genuinely interested to hear your response to -
How did I tear down Nagel?

I said I agreed with him.



I also said that what NAGEL actually believed and was discussing was being misinterpreted as meaning something it did not.

IE: Materialistic Darwinism ≠ Darwinism, its an attempt to APPLY biological Darwinism to other, philosophical/non-biological, scenarios.

Nagel And I both feel that Materialistic Darwinism is not well founded, and, as Nagel said, it will most likely fall by the wayside after a while.

So, the ONLY people actually, currently, talking about Materialistic Darwinism are Creationists/ID people, who THINK it means Evolution of Species, and, take quotes they don't understand, and paste them thinking that they found evidence that great philosophers (Such as Nagel) had provided them with proof against evolution.

ACTUAL scientists who study evolution and "Darwinism" (They don't call any thing "Darwinism")....do not have anything to do with MATERIALISTIC Darwinism.

So, again, I did not "tear down" Nagel, as you for some bizarre reason claimed I did, I said we were in agreement, and, that an idiot had not understood Nagel's work...and used it to try to say the opposite of what Nagel himself meant.

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Old 04-08-2015, 12:59 PM #5434
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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But your overall point has no meaning, and you are "correcting things" without addressing what was wrong with what you said in the first place.

IE: You make some statements, pretend they apply, then make assumptions based upon them.

The closest thing to a point may be that you seem to have a problem if math can be used to figure things out?

And, if math can be used to figure things out, then, because man made math, they don't count?



If you are saying you can pour water into a hole, and THAT'S "Order", what is the basis for that?

That the water IS in the shape of the hole, or, that if you pour water into a hole, you get water in a hole?

Does that need to be said?



And despite SAYING you understand chaos, you are not referring to it differently than Jeff G.

Your "definition" of "Order" is so vague as to include almost anything....rendering it meaningless. Essentially, if I do anything, and something happens, that's order.



Are you just posting so your rock bullet thing hidden in your post gets hits?
Are you reading what I wrote upside down , or are you honestly that daft? Read the post, don't try to clarify by your commentary when you obviously aren't trying to acknowledge any points other than your own. You quibble flaw in what I originally wrote with weak arguments, so I recomposed to help you better understand where I was coming from, and now you are not even giving reference to where your argument stands on the second. Tell me, where does the water not flow equally with order or when does it come into disorder through the hypothetical hole you presented as part of your case to support chaos theory? Give me one solid representation of chaos, that is not man made nor artificially manipulated, which can be found in nature and has been proven that chaos theory and their models provide real, sensible, and useable data in the natural world. If it's chaos , and by that incorporating chance and circumstance of 1:1000000 +/- , it cannot be deemed as empirical data or evidence of anything other than events we see as random, but does not necessarily mean they are random at all. We calculate randomness and chance with the same mathematics which created what we call "random" to begin with. There was absolutely nothing vague over my examples of order, they were quite explicit. I think that if one wants to argue that chaos theory genuinely holds up as a plausible academic and scientific fact or facilitator to any truth, they are trying to hide from the truth. Chaos theory takes simple things and makes them so outrageously complex that no one can rationally understand their meaning. And honestly, I personally believe that is to escape having to see order in all facets of the cosmos, from the least to the greatest and calculate it all out to random chance. Otherwise it would beg to question where all this order and symmetry is coming from in the universe.

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Old 04-08-2015, 01:55 PM #5435
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Of course, symbolic of the body and blood of Christ.... eat it, think of it as me, in remembrance.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:41 PM #5436
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OASIS Founder View Post
Are you reading what I wrote upside down , or are you honestly that daft? Read the post, don't try to clarify by your commentary when you obviously aren't trying to acknowledge any points other than your own. You quibble flaw in what I originally wrote with weak arguments, so I recomposed to help you better understand where I was coming from, and now you are not even giving reference to where your argument stands on the second. Tell me, where does the water not flow equally with order or when does it come into disorder through the hypothetical hole you presented as part of your case to support chaos theory? Give me one solid representation of chaos, that is not man made nor artificially manipulated, which can be found in nature and has been proven that chaos theory and their models provide real, sensible, and useable data in the natural world. If it's chaos , and by that incorporating chance and circumstance of 1:1000000 +/- , it cannot be deemed as empirical data or evidence of anything other than events we see as random, but does not necessarily mean they are random at all. We calculate randomness and chance with the same mathematics which created what we call "random" to begin with. There was absolutely nothing vague over my examples of order, they were quite explicit. I think that if one wants to argue that chaos theory genuinely holds up as a plausible academic and scientific fact or facilitator to any truth, they are trying to hide from the truth. Chaos theory takes simple things and makes them so outrageously complex that no one can rationally understand their meaning. And honestly, I personally believe that is to escape having to see order in all facets of the cosmos, from the least to the greatest and calculate it all out to random chance. Otherwise it would beg to question where all this order and symmetry is coming from in the universe.
Look, maybe you are having trouble expressing what you mean?

You say every thing has order, make claims about chaos theory that are not in line with chaos theory, seem to confuse a theory with what it is designed to model, and seem to be trying to imply that there is some sort of reason for the "order" that doesn't seem to require ANY reason, based upon your confusion about the function of a theory.

IE: You are asking that we essentially agree to define order as what happens when we pour a bucket of water into a hole.

You then ask that we then ask "how it it possible for that order to exist?"

You THEN further imply that because we can pour water into a hole to create order, that this "order" must be divine in origin....


...because chaos theory (Which is simply used to try to predict this sort of scenario) is developed by man?

What?




If you want to state your premise more clearly, so it doesn't essentially read as above, do so, but, not in a wall of text, but perhaps in step wise fashion.

IE: Claim, supporting evidence/argument and conclusion.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:41 PM #5437
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Teej

I've already aired my grievances on how you choose to communicate in this thread and I'm not interested in getting into another fruitless discussion about the format of argument rather than the subject.

This is what I was after -

Quote:
If you have a classifiable worldview please state it or define your own so we know where your coming from. Then I would be genuinely interested to hear your response to -

Where does "consciousness" fit into your worldview?
Feel free to ignore it for a third time, or answer it, but try not to derail it.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:53 PM #5438
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It is you sir, that is flawed in the understanding, structure, and foundation of chaos theory. You are evading any point-said responses that would unhinge your already lackadaisical mindset. You do not read, or perhaps comprehend the comments poised, not even to you. Thank you though - your last response does reveal a great deal about you in general.
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OASIS Founder View Post
Are you reading what I wrote upside down , or are you honestly that daft?

Read the post, don't try to clarify by your commentary when you obviously aren't trying to acknowledge any points other than your own.

You quibble flaw in what I originally wrote with weak arguments, so I recomposed to help you better understand where I was coming from, and now you are not even giving reference to where your argument stands on the second.

Tell me, where does the water not flow equally with order or when does it come into disorder through the hypothetical hole you presented as part of your case to support chaos theory?

Give me one solid representation of chaos, that is not man made nor artificially manipulated, which can be found in nature and has been proven that chaos theory and their models provide real, sensible, and useable data in the natural world. If it's chaos , and by that incorporating chance and circumstance of 1:1000000 +/- , it cannot be deemed as empirical data or evidence of anything other than events we see as random, but does not necessarily mean they are random at all.

We calculate randomness and chance with the same mathematics which created what we call "random" to begin with. There was absolutely nothing vague over my examples of order, they were quite explicit.

I think that if one wants to argue that chaos theory genuinely holds up as a plausible academic and scientific fact or facilitator to any truth, they are trying to hide from the truth.

Chaos theory takes simple things and makes them so outrageously complex that no one can rationally understand their meaning. And honestly, I personally believe that is to escape having to see order in all facets of the cosmos, from the least to the greatest and calculate it all out to random chance.

Otherwise it would beg to question where all this order and symmetry is coming from in the universe.


One, I am not "supporting" chaos theory, I am referring to your misuse of it.

You seem to feel that if a theory doesn't prove there's a god, it must be wrong?

Chaos theory has nothing to do with god....its a way to help predict large numbers of variables and random scenarios....such as weather.

If you want to say that there is a reason for the random acts, I agree, but, in things such as Brownian Motion, weather, etc, we do not have enough data to predict the motion over time of a single leaf fluttering in the wind...to predict when it will fall from the tree, and land exactly HERE.

Chaos theory discusses these difficulties, and provides ranges of variables to plug in and model potential ranges that that leaf might follow.

It IS complicated, because you would need DATA that told you the wind speed, direction, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and the potential interaction of every OTHER leaf it might hit, every squirrel that may or may not step on it on its way to its nest, every bug that might take a bite out of it, etc.


So, chaos theory might say, the leaf might fall on the following days, and, depending on which day, and what time, etc...it might flutter between here and there.

If you personally KNOW EXACTLY where that leaf WILL LAND, because YOU UNDERSTAND THE ORDER, great...that means you should also be able to predict the outcomes of horse races, stock prices, etc, and, are pretty much set for life.

If you DON'T know EXACTLY where that leaf will land, you are like most of us, even those who DO understand chaos theory and CAN apply it.

To confuse ORDER with PREDICTABILITY, is one root of your premise.

IE: You say that unless Chaos Theory can be applied to nature, its invalid, and, yet, nature is its best application. Chaos theory is used to help predict storm paths for example.



Example:

Give me one solid representation of chaos, that is not man made nor artificially manipulated, which can be found in nature and has been proven that chaos theory and their models provide real, sensible, and useable data in the natural world. If it's chaos , and by that incorporating chance and circumstance of 1:1000000 +/- , it cannot be deemed as empirical data or evidence of anything other than events we see as random, but does not necessarily mean they are random at all.

This is a good example of you STILL thinking chaos theory says everything is random.

It doesn't say that....that's the mistake in Jurrasic Park I referred to....you and Jeff G don't know what Chaos Theory says or means.

You think it means everything is random, and, then try to prove its wrong.

This would be akin to me saying you were a unicorn, and then trying to prove you can't be, and, that you are wrong about being one.

Your entire premise is flawed, because your entire premise revolves around that unicorn.



You say Chaos Theory makes something simple into something complicated. Lets use the leaf scenario. According to your premise about simplicity, YOU PERSONALLY can look at ANY green leaf on an oak tree on June 10, 2015, and, predict EXACTLY where it is GOING TO BE on December 10, 2015, because its simple.

I SAY that that would be COMPLICATED, because I would need so much data to make such a prediction that it WOULD BE overwhelming. Chaos Theory COULD be used to make a prediction, but, would give a RANGE of predicted locations, based upon projections of available data.



We can use the storm track predictions as well. YOU say its simple to see a tropical storm develop , and you will KNOW what coastal towns, 3 thousand miles away, need to be evacuated, or, if the storm will curve out to sea, or further east/west or whatever, because "Its Simple". YOU say its "Simple". I'm not so sure it IS simple.

I'd need a HUGE amount of data to make that sort of prediction, just as people who do that for a living do. They refer to many models, and, each model may use different data in different ways, to try to predict the storm's path, intensity, etc. They then issue a RANGE of where the storm may go, and, its intensity at these points. Chaos Theory is applied, and that encompasses many calculations....because ITS COMPLICATED.

YOU say its simple though...so, I think if you are CORRECT about that, you should simply call the meteorologists and tell them the simple answers they are CURRENTLY working so hard on with their needlessly complicated theories.

Think of the lives you could save!




So, for the record, you are 100% wrong, BECAUSE you are STILL arguing a point that doesn't EXIST. Chaos theory DOESN'T say everything is random....that's YOUR misinterpretation of it.

ALL arguments BASED UPON that misinterpretation are therefore meaningless.

Its not me being Daft.


Last edited by Teej; 04-08-2015 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:22 PM #5440
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
One, I am not "supporting" chaos theory, I am referring to your misuse of it.

You seem to feel that if a theory doesn't prove there's a god, it must be wrong?

Chaos theory has nothing to do with god....its a way to help predict large numbers of variables and random scenarios....such as weather.

If you want to say that there is a reason for the random acts, I agree, but, in things such as Brownian Motion, weather, etc, we do not have enough data to predict the motion over time of a single leaf fluttering in the wind...to predict when it will fall from the tree, and land exactly HERE.

Chaos theory discusses these difficulties, and provides ranges of variable to plug in and model potential ranges that that leaf might follow.

It IS complicated, because you would need DATA that told you the wind speed, direction, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and the potential interaction of every OTHER leaf it might hit, every squirrel that may or may not step on it on its way to its nest, every bug that might take a bite out of it, etc.


So, chaos theory might say, the leaf might fall on the following days, and, depending on which day, and what time, etc...it might flutter between here and there.

If you personally KNOW EXACTLY where that leaf WILL LAND, because YOU UNDERSTAND THE ORDER, great...that means you should also be able to predict the outcomes of horse races, stock prices, etc, and, are pretty much set for life.

If you DON'T know EXACTLY where that leaf will land, you are like most of us, even those who DO understand chaos theory and CAN apply it.

To confuse ORDER with PREDICTABILITY, is one root of your premise.

IE: You say that unless Chaos Theory can be applied to nature, its invalid, and, yet, nature is its best application.



Example:

Give me one solid representation of chaos, that is not man made nor artificially manipulated, which can be found in nature and has been proven that chaos theory and their models provide real, sensible, and useable data in the natural world. If it's chaos , and by that incorporating chance and circumstance of 1:1000000 +/- , it cannot be deemed as empirical data or evidence of anything other than events we see as random, but does not necessarily mean they are random at all.

This is a good example of you STILL thinking chaos theory says everything is random.

It doesn't say that....that's the mistake in Jurrasic Park I referred to....you and Jeff G don't know what Chaos Theory says or means.

You think it means everything is random, and, then try to prove its wrong.

This would be akin to me saying you were a unicorn, and then trying to prove you can't be, and, that you are wrong about being one.

Your entire premise is flawed, because your entire premise revolves around that unicorn.


So, for the record, you are 100% wrong, BECAUSE you are STILL arguing a point that doesn't EXIST. Chaos theory DOESN'T say everything is random....that's YOUR misinterpretation of it.

ALL arguments BASED UPON that misinterpretation are therefore meaningless.

Its not me being Daft.

Yes sir , it is you that is being daft. For one, I did not equate what I was saying to god or any divinity; the unicorn is on you. Second, I did not randomly come up with the water into the hole - you did. Finally - its interesting to note that you still have not given one example of chaos theory in nature. The wind blowing a leaf to point a is cause and effect, it happens in nature but is only supportive by dynamics, that's all. Chaos did not create the leaf, chaos did not create the wind - the dynamic interaction and result between the two cannot be represented by a scientific calculation. Chaos theory is the one suggesting that the lottery card can be calculated, not the other way around.

What I am suggesting lies in realism and fact, what you are suggesting is that science can break the bounds of pseudoscience using chaos theory, models and calculations. You've brought up Jeff G several times, so it's probably safe to say that you've been frequenting that park yourself.

Next you'll be trying to convince everyone we're all fractals.. After all it fits in with the chaos equations. Nature itself must support it, otherwise it's pseudoscience
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