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Old 04-06-2015, 10:00 PM #5409
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Where does consciousness fit into the atheistic naturalism worldview?


Reasons To Believe : Explaining the Mind-Related Features of the Cosmos
I would like to point out that atheism includes not believing in god...just like Christianity includes not believing in MOST GODS.

You could therefore also ask "Where does consciousness fit into the christian naturalism worldview?"

Nagel is an atheist, and, is being misinterpreted as saying that consciousness requires god, which is not what he actually believes...or even actually said.

Example:

“On a purely materialist understanding of biology, consciousness would have to be regarded as a tremendous and inexplicable extra brute fact about the world.”

(about materialistic Darwinism): “I find this view antecedently unbelievable—a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense.”6 And he insists: “I would be willing to bet that the present right-thinking consensus will come to seem laughable in a generation or two…"


Materialistic Darwinism is not atheism...its not even a real belief system per se, it more of an attempt to put somethings that are actually unrelated together because someone thought they belonged.

Evolution, as a theory, doesn't actually apply to the objects, it applies to the organisms.

Nagel agreeing with me doesn't mean Darwin was wrong or that evolution is wrong....it means morons like Ken Samples, etc, don't have high reading comprehension, and are so desperate for potential sources that they just assume that things with the right words in them can be quoted as meaning whatever they wanted them to mean.

IE: Adding "Materialistic" negates the implication that we are discussing biological evolution....

...AND..

Atheism is simply believing in one fewer god than say a Jew or Christian, and two fewer than a christian, if you count Jesus as a second god, etc.

Not believing in God doesn't mean you also have other opinions per se. We are not issued beliefs in fixed sets, despite propaganda to the contrary.

IE: NOT believing in god doesn't mean you feel a particular way about a branch of science, any more than believing would.

So, sure someone who has figured out there was no tooth fairy, and then no Santa, and then no god, MIGHT be also able to figure other things out too...and that might lead to certain conclusions...but, its a bit silly to misinterpret a philosopher's work, and then take an out of context article by someone who didn't understand what they read about that work, and then post that misunderstood text as supporting a position that it in fact doesn't support.




Quote:
In his most recent book, Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False, eminent philosopher Thomas Nagel concludes that Darwinian materialism has failed as a comprehensive scientific explanation for reality. Nagel rejects both reductionistic and emergent physical explanations for consciousness, stating that “consciousness is the most conspicuous obstacle to a comprehensive naturalism that relies only on the resources of physical science.”3 An ardent atheist with no predilection toward theism, Nagel also states: “On a purely materialist understanding of biology, consciousness would have to be regarded as a tremendous and inexplicable extra brute fact about the world.”4

Thomas Nagel is a notable academic scholar at New York University and an authority on the philosophy of mind. His words carry weight. Concerning the grand evolutionary theory that purports to explain all life through solely natural means (appealing to the workings of physics, chemistry, and biology), Nagel declares: “It is an assumption governing the scientific project rather than a well-confirmed scientific hypothesis.”5 Later he says about materialistic Darwinism: “I find this view antecedently unbelievable—a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense.”6 And he insists: “I would be willing to bet that the present right-thinking consensus will come to seem laughable in a generation or two…”7



So, quoting an ardent atheist, who is "An eminent philosopher" and "An Authority on the philosophy of the mind", and "Who's words carry weight"....

and then not understanding WHAT those words MEANT, is kind of funny though.




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Old 04-06-2015, 11:02 PM #5410
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by scottg View Post
My Religion = muslim,
http://**********.tk/97/o.png
what is **********?
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:12 PM #5411
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
what is **********?
Oh crap, another rock bullet guy...the mods have been banning them, its a scam/tracking thing.

He has two other posts that probably have it too.

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Old 04-07-2015, 02:22 AM #5412
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
I find this view antecedently unbelievable—a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense.
Am I correct in summarizing that to mean "it's not intuitive, so I don't believe it"? He's gonna shit his pants if he ever learns about quantum physics.

Quote:
Thomas Nagel is a notable academic scholar at New York University and an authority on the philosophy of mind. His words carry weight.
textbook definition of argument from authority. Never have I seen someone string together so many big words while saying almost nothing. Nagel can go fuck himself.

Quote:
naturalistic philosophers of mind admit they have no idea how personal consciousness emerged from nonconscious matter. Therefore, it is safe to say that consciousness—whether conceived as reductionistic or emergent—does not fit in the purely physical world of naturalism.
"Philosophers don't know how the brain formed, so the brain can't exist in science" is a stupid thing to say, and I shouldn't have to explain why.

The rest of the article is more of the same "anything complex must have a creator" bullshit.
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:14 AM #5413
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Teej & Cyp

In your typical fashion you make plenty of effort to tear down Nagel, which is fine of course, your arguments are valid enough, but no time spent on answering the question.

Quote:
Where does consciousness fit into the atheistic naturalism worldview?
That link was just to setup a framework of the idea for you to form your own response to the question. There are times you guys seem so heavy laden with pessimism that there is no true back and forth discussion, just your criticisms of others beliefs.

If either of you have a classifiable worldview please state it or define your own so we know where your coming from. Then I would be genuinely interested to hear your response to -

Quote:
Where does "consciousness" fit into your worldview?
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:32 AM #5414
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The mind is a feature contained in the brain. You can easily affect the state of your mind by altering the state of your brain (chemicals, trauma, etc.). When the brain is damaged, the mind is damaged. When the brain ends, the mind ends.
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Old 04-07-2015, 02:58 PM #5415
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:11 PM #5416
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

For those who think that is a joke, it isn't, prepackaged communion has been around for several years now, many churches use it. If you don't believe it Google "prepackaged communion".

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Old 04-07-2015, 05:29 PM #5417
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

at least this seems more sanitary than having the priest hand you a chunk.... or place it directly into your mouth.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:46 PM #5418
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
at least this seems more sanitary than having the priest hand you a chunk.... or place in directly into your mouth.
This is quite possibly the best setup for a joke I've seen this year.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:15 PM #5419
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
at least this seems more sanitary than having the priest hand you a chunk.... or place in directly into your mouth.
It's also common for many churches to have some guys go and pass around 2 trays, one with little cups and another with squares of bread or wafers. This isn't all that sanitary either if 30 people breath on it or someone nearby coughs or sneezes.

I am all in favor of these prepackaged things and it lasts 6 months and doesn't need refrigeration.

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Old 04-07-2015, 07:38 PM #5420
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The Mormon church my ex-wife grew up in, and for which I sometimes would go to with her, won't give communion to members who aren't in good standing, a very good way to make the trespassers all stand out in church when you see them bypass communion. I've heard if you don't pay your tithe, that can happen to you as a member.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-07-2015, 08:21 PM #5421
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The few times I've been too church*, I've never done the bread and wine thing. It always struck me as not very hygienic.

I am curious though, what the purpose of the bread and wine is, and what it represents.

*I would just like to note, I didn't go by choice.
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:23 PM #5422
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It symbolizes eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus, making you one with him and through that, God, I imagine.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-07-2015, 08:30 PM #5423
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

1 Corinthians 11:23-25

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:15 PM #5424
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
It symbolizes eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus, making you one with him and through that, God, I imagine.
Okay then.
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