Old 03-24-2015, 03:18 PM #5377
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 03-24-2015, 10:52 PM #5378
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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That is ridiculous! I am a Christian and even I think that is ridiculous. I do however think the federal government and Supreme Court should stay out of this and leave it to the states. It should be put to a vote in each state and in states that don't allow that then leave it to your elected representatives to decide. Leave it to the people to decide what they think. The reason gay and lesbian marriage is only now becoming legal in most of the U.S. is because of religion, and not just Christians but also other religions and churches have been against it. Some churches accept the LGBT people and some don't, some accept them as fully equal and allow them in leadership positions and ordained ministers. Let them decide for themselves if it's right or wrong. I would remind everyone here that we are supposed to have freedom of religion and a separation of church and state and we used to have democracy but that seems to be slipping away although that is another subject. Any religion or church can impose its own set of rules on its members and that is as it should be, but when it comes to laws that apply to everyone then let the people decide.

Alan
Heres the problem I have with leaving it up to the states to decide Pi'. If this was the case we would probably still have segregation in Mississippi Alabama and other southern states. Its the same with same *** marriages. The church and religion doesn't have a monopoly on marriage. Some marriages may happen in a church but its not the church or even a states citizens that decides who can and who can't get married. Its the constitution and if denying same *** marriages is determined by the Supreme Court to be a violation of rights then it is not only their place to force the states to comply it is their sworn duty. To uphold the constitution.

Now, I will grant you that I agree that the fed's should not force a church to perform any type of marriage they don't wish to as its not a granted right to belong to a particular denomination. The Mormons didn't allow African Americans in the church until the late 70's and that was their choice. Bigoted and Fk'd up, but their right to choose who can and can not be a member none the less.

The law is often not decided by popular vote. Again I will use segregation as an example. The Federal Gvt had to intervene in the racist states to say "hey guy's, screw you, segregation is wrong and unconstitutional" regardless if it was an un popular decision there.
So PI' let me ask you a question. In the case of de-segregation, do you feel that should have been left up to the states?
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Old 03-26-2015, 12:21 AM #5379
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 03-26-2015, 01:26 AM #5380
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Heres the problem I have with leaving it up to the states to decide Pi'. If this was the case we would probably still have segregation in Mississippi Alabama and other southern states. Its the same with same *** marriages. The church and religion doesn't have a monopoly on marriage. Some marriages may happen in a church but its not the church or even a states citizens that decides who can and who can't get married. Its the constitution and if denying same *** marriages is determined by the Supreme Court to be a violation of rights then it is not only their place to force the states to comply it is their sworn duty. To uphold the constitution.

Now, I will grant you that I agree that the fed's should not force a church to perform any type of marriage they don't wish to as its not a granted right to belong to a particular denomination. The Mormons didn't allow African Americans in the church until the late 70's and that was their choice. Bigoted and Fk'd up, but their right to choose who can and can not be a member none the less.

The law is often not decided by popular vote. Again I will use segregation as an example. The Federal Gvt had to intervene in the racist states to say "hey guy's, screw you, segregation is wrong and unconstitutional" regardless if it was an un popular decision there.
So PI' let me ask you a question. In the case of de-segregation, do you feel that should have been left up to the states?
No, de-segregation shouldn't have been left to the states, but people will segregate themselves anyway to a large extent until they are ready to accept change and get rid of their prejudices and discrimination of those different from themselves, this takes time.

Anything not in the constitution should be left to the states to decide. I have been in 26 states in my lifetime and people aren't the same everywhere, very far from it. There are parts of the country that are in no way representative of what the rest of the U.S. is like. The U.S. is a very divided country. Things would get better if the federal government was smaller and the states decided more things for themselves.

I am also wondering how far you would want to take this. Do you know how many countries execute gay, lesbian, bi people? Should we tell them they have to stop doing this? You would have more than a billion followers of Islam angry at us (they are already). They will change on their own. The best thing we can do is increase communication, travel, trade, and immigration, and education world wide. We do some of that right here with people from around the world talking to each other. In the long term it will work better than destabilizing countries, overthrowing governments and starting wars.

Your statement about the Mormons is incorrect, they did allow African American members, but the men weren't allowed to be ordained into the priesthood, where most male member are ordained. I myself was an LDS member prior to 35 years ago, I left because I always felt something was wrong with it.

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Old 03-26-2015, 01:52 AM #5381
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I was reading a little while ago about Phil Robertson, of Duck Dynasty.

Holy CRAP. The guy's a raving lunatic.


His last rant's gist was essentially indicating that he thinks that not believing in his god means you ALSO think that there's no such thing as right and wrong.

Its sort of an extreme example of the whacko idea that people will only treat others with respect/do the right thing, if they think they'd other wise be punished.

Its as if he himself would rape and murder and castrate other people if he didn't believe in god (As per his rant)...because he's saying that's what other's who don't believe would do.


It always seems incredible that people, on the whole, are not recognized as basically good, but with a few bad apples, and, the bad apples can be religious zealots, or agnostics or atheists...but, they're not bad apples BECAUSE they are religious, or not,....any more than bad apples are bad because they are apples.



He is SO full of hate disguised as love its sickening.

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Old 03-26-2015, 02:20 AM #5382
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I was reading a little while ago about Phil Robertson, of Duck Dynasty.

Holy CRAP. The guy's a raving lunatic.


His last rant's gist was essentially indicating that he thinks that not believing in his god means you ALSO think that there's no such thing as right and wrong.

Its sort of an extreme example of the whacko idea that people will only treat others with respect/do the right thing, if they think they'd other wise be punished.

Its as if he himself would rape and murder and castrate other people if he didn't believe in god (As per his rant)...because he's saying that's what other's who don't believe would do.


It always seems incredible that people, on the whole, are not recognized as basically good, but with a few bad apples, and, the bad apples can be religious zealots, or agnostics or atheists...but, they're not bad apples BECAUSE they are religious, or not,....any more than bad apples are bad because they are apples.



He is SO full of hate disguised as love its sickening.
You just made my point I stated above again. I have never seen the show because I don't have regular TV here, I get some over the Internet and buy DVDs. I have little doubt that he would think you just as much a raving lunatic as you think of him. People from Louisiana are not like people from NJ, I never made it to Louisiana but I once knew a family that moved up here from there, and I have been elsewhere in the south. In Louisiana most people go to church, many drive pickup trucks and they all have shotguns and it's common to eat road kill for dinner, if they are driving and hit an animal, you stop and throw it in the back of the truck and take it home to cook for dinner, I don't think you would fit in there Teej.

It will take a long time for us all to grow closer together and become more alike. Let's not try to rush it to fast.

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Old 03-26-2015, 03:32 AM #5383
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Marriage used to be a church thing. Now? Not so much. Its a legal thing mostly now.

If I had any desire to get married it wouldn't be in a church I would just go to a municipal building and fill out the needed forms.
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:38 AM #5384
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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You just made my point I stated above again. I have never seen the show because I don't have regular TV here, I get some over the Internet and buy DVDs. I have little doubt that he would think you just as much a raving lunatic as you think of him. People from Louisiana are not like people from NJ, I never made it to Louisiana but I once knew a family that moved up here from there, and I have been elsewhere in the south. In Louisiana most people go to church, many drive pickup trucks and they all have shotguns and it's common to eat road kill for dinner, if they are driving and hit an animal, you stop and throw it in the back of the truck and take it home to cook for dinner, I don't think you would fit in there Teej.

It will take a long time for us all to grow closer together and become more alike. Let's not try to rush it to fast.

Alan

LOL

I've been in Louisiana, and, yeah, but a lot of that region of the country includes people like that. Its not wrong to eat road kill per se btw, its an economic solution....combined with a basic sense of how long is too long, sort of the 5 second rule applied to dead things on the road.

According to polls, if THEY hit the critter, or SAW it hit, that was a best case, and, the MOST often used. If FOUND on the road, they might consider if it was stiff/dried, too many flies, recent blood trail or dried trail, etc...in considering if it was OK to eat.

One of the research agencies my wife worked for did an extensive study on nationwide nutrition, and, they essentially were keeping track of the proteins, fats, and other nutrients that various parts of the population consumed.

One of the hardest to track WAS roadkill, BECAUSE it was off the books so to speak...as there was no record of a store selling it, etc....the only records were based upon polls taken.

In some areas for example, roadkill was a significant part of their protein.





As far as right wing nut jobs who think that their opposition to gay marriage, etc, will stand the test of time, and that its not going to happen...the clock is ticking.



I think reason, and the ability to OBJECTIVELY distinguish between what you think is "icky" and what is MORALLY WRONG and what SHOULD BE LEGALLY WRONG as a result of that objective analysis....

...would eventually lead to the conclusion that there is nothing morally wrong with homos@xuality.


The ONLY labels claiming homo$***uality is wrong are printed by RELIGIOUS groups, who took their ancient taboos and turned them into laws, and CALLED them morals.

These are the same groups that for example said it was immoral to wear clothing with more than one type of cloth, to not have a woman's face covered, to eat dairy and meat together, to light a fire on a Saturday, etc.

THAT'S the group that said homo$exuality was immoral, and, if they had not said that, there would be no problem today.


If Phil Robertson, etc, would give the OTHER "immoral" acts the same weight he gives to that ONE act, his life would be VERY different. (But, like almost all the nut jobs, he cherry picks what to be outraged about)

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Old 03-27-2015, 03:51 PM #5385
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Old 03-29-2015, 02:52 PM #5386
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

How come there isn't something in the Bible telling people not to use their religion as an excuse to reject or harm someone who either doesn't believe in religion, or has a different one? I think they missed a biggie, that should have been in the top ten.
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Old 03-30-2015, 02:09 PM #5387
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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How come there isn't something in the Bible telling people not to use their religion as an excuse to reject or harm someone who either doesn't believe in religion, or has a different one? I think they missed a biggie, that should have been in the top ten.
God's Priorities Concerning Mankind:



Its all about worshiping HIM until ~ #5, halfway through the list.

Honoring your mom and dad is more important than not murdering...murder is #6 out of 10?

Its as if a Bronze age man had written this crap, with his primary motivation being a way to deal with COMPETITIVE RELIGIONS...of the time.


So, the "Biggies" are not how to treat your fellow man, they are NOT TO worship OTHER GODS, NOT to make graven images, NOT TO use god's name in vain, and TO observe the sabbath, yet another homage to the rather insecure god.

IE: GOD's priorities, as given, were to HIM first, and, humanity as an afterthought.


Of course, its hard to know what was even SUPPOSED to be on the tablets, as Moses was reported to have shattered them in anger.

So, lets see, I see GOD, and, I have a personal relationship with him, he speaks to me, he waits for me to chip his words into the stones, or, he GIVES me the gift to mankind...

And I come down from the mountain with THIS GIFT FROM GOD!

And I see people made a golden calf, and I am SOOOO pissed, that, I smash the GIFT FROM GOD.

Wow, that's pretty angry. I mean, if I actually had something given to me BY GOD, I can't IMAGINE smashing it, no matter HOW angry I was at PEOPLE.


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Old 03-31-2015, 04:44 AM #5388
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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It should be put to a vote in each state and in states that don't allow that then leave it to your elected representatives to decide. Leave it to the people to decide what they think.
So you're of the opinion that something is okay "if the people vote for it"?

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I am also wondering how far you would want to take this. Do you know how many countries execute gay, lesbian, bi people? Should we tell them they have to stop doing this? You would have more than a billion followers of Islam angry at us
"I am also wondering how far you would want to take this. Do you know what the Nazis are doing to the Jews? Should we tell them we have to stop doing this? You would have a fierce army angry with us."

</putting_words_in_your_mouth>
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:41 AM #5389
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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So you're of the opinion that something is okay "if the people vote for it"?
I think democracy can't be fair to everyone but it is the best system of government I know of. Just because the people vote for something doesn't make it OK, what is OK for them may not be OK to you and I, but I think that the people of every country and to a lesser extent every state or provincial government have a right to decide for themselves what is OK or not. Of course they don't all have that option. If we try to force our morals and beliefs and way of life on everyone I think it will fail. Over time we will all become more alike as we learn more about each other.

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"I am also wondering how far you would want to take this. Do you know what the Nazis are doing to the Jews? Should we tell them we have to stop doing this? You would have a fierce army angry with us."

</putting_words_in_your_mouth>
I do believe that going to war with the Nazis was the right thing to do, their goal was not just eliminating the Jews but also global domination and they may have been sucessful if we had not entered the war. They would have eventually come after us anyway. My parents married in 1941 before the U.S. entered the war and my father served for 21 years, I heard so many stories over the years about what went on back then and after the war. Those were desperate times, people everywhere lived in fear and far too many died.

We should be cautious about bringing on WW3, I doubt anyone can win this time. I don't want to see civilization destroyed. Those of us who lived through the Cold War and were old enough to remember it will remember that we lived in constant fear of nuclear war, I always believed it would eventually happen, fortunately it never did.

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:30 PM #5390
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I think democracy can't be fair to everyone but it is the best system of government I know of. Just because the people vote for something doesn't make it OK, what is OK for them may not be OK to you and I, but I think that the people of every country and to a lesser extent every state or provincial government have a right to decide for themselves what is OK or not. Of course they don't all have that option. If we try to force our morals and beliefs and way of life on everyone I think it will fail. Over time we will all become more alike as we learn more about each other.



I do believe that going to war with the Nazis was the right thing to do, their goal was not just eliminating the Jews but also global domination and they may have been sucessful if we had not entered the war. They would have eventually come after us anyway. My parents married in 1941 before the U.S. entered the war and my father served for 21 years, I heard so many stories over the years about what went on back then and after the war. Those were desperate times, people everywhere lived in fear and far too many died.

We should be cautious about bringing on WW3, I doubt anyone can win this time. I don't want to see civilization destroyed. Those of us who lived through the Cold War and were old enough to remember it will remember that we lived in constant fear of nuclear war, I always believed it would eventually happen, fortunately it never did.

Alan


I'm pretty sure ISIS is also going for world domination.

They will therefore be going after you anyway...and/or your progeny, etc...if no one stops them.


I think your point about local entities determining the local mores is fairly well established historically. Its pretty normal, and, on a day to day basis, in that community, it tends to work quite well for the local populace in majority/control.

Segregation of schools, different water fountains and bus seats for colored folks, The Salem Witch Trials, etc, are all great examples of this process.

The problem, morally, is that the minorities/those not in power, seem to always get the short end of the stick.


So, I agree that making a law that says blacks have the same rights, or gays have the same rights, etc, will NOT make everyone actually BELIEVE that they SHOULD, it will merely say that the government is not condoning the disparity, and that if someone who's color or religion etc, is something you oppose, you still have to make them their wedding cake or serve them their burger....to be within the law.

And, naturally, one would question the wisdom of FORCING a KKK guy with a bakery to make you a wedding cake if you're black...from a culinary and health perspective...but, the CONCEPT is that you can't impose YOUR beliefs on others via prejudicial treatment.

I think its unrealistic to expect theocratic governed peoples with a long history of centralized authoritarian leadership and institutionalized misogyny, etc, to suddenly internalize the principles of equality and democracy, capitalism, etc.

It took the USA over 100 years to make the SAME CHANGES in our society.

We started with slavery, etc, and woman being property as well essentially, and, only in the early 1900's did we finally ALLOW woman to vote, and only in the mid 1900's did we finally DISALLOW segregation in schools, etc.

So, lets see, from ~ 1776 or so to 1920, a woman could be ARRESTED for voting (Local laws forbade it, there were no federal laws one way or the other though...the states could decide)

That's well over 100 years to change that one issue.


We go to some third world country where they are where we were in the 1700's as far as their world views on these issues, and expect them to INSTANTLY transform to modern principles and world views, and are aghast at their prejudices and misogyny, etc, when they continue to treat people as though it were still the 1700's.

It can take CENTURIES for them to finally internalize these principles.


So, yeah, its easier to see what to do with 20/20 hindsight. Its harder when you DON'T know what's going to happen.

IS ISIS an analogue for Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan?

COULD they incite an uprising amongst the poor, uneducated, religiously manipulated Muslims / create a cause celeb amongst the wealthy, well educated Muslim extremists?

So far, yes they can, and, that's their game plan thus far.


Back at the incipient stages of WWII for example, we also had no clue where it was all going, maybe giving Hitler Poland WOULD have appeased him and solved the problem, etc...so, they tried that, and so forth.

Maybe we COULD hang back and just supply resources but no ground troops to the war, etc....and not commit to fighting the Axis, etc.

This is EXACTLY the pickle we are in right now..."Maybe we COULD hang back and supply resources but no ground troops to the war, and not commit to fighting ISIS", etc.



So, there are a LOT of factors here, covering realistic expectations for old cultures to quickly catch up to modern values, recognizing what fights we SHOULD go all in on, for a just cause, and what fights we should hang back on, etc.

ISIS CRAVES a "Holy War". They WANT to be able to say that "There is a War on Islam".

It MAKES THEM the de facto representative OF Islam in that scenario, and, they can then use that to motivate Muslims to "Defend Their Faith!".


In real life, they are extremists, and, most Muslims view ISIS as most Christians might view the Oklahoma City bombers.

BUT, they DID succeed in convincing a lot of people in the US for example, that Muslims are pariahs and not a real part of the USA, because, the terrorist agenda drove a wedge between the USA majorities and the Muslim minorities by looking at midde easterners AS terrorists, w/o knowing anything about the PERSON in the turban, etc.

When WE TREAT innocent Muslims as outcasts, we are turning them from us, and, all but forcing them to see ISIS as representing them more than we do, etc.

Its a dangerous cycle.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:17 PM #5391
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If we try to force our morals and beliefs and way of life on everyone I think it will fail.
If 51% of the population forced their morals and beliefs on 49% of the population by denying a right that has little/no effect on that 51%... would that be a good example of something you think will fail?
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:15 AM #5392
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If 51% of the population forced their morals and beliefs on 49% of the population by denying a right that has little/no effect on that 51%... would that be a good example of something you think will fail?
It's always a possibility when the margin is that small, it depends on how controversial the issue is. I still think a democratic system is the best form of government. Of course this only applies to individual governments. Too many of the worlds governments are a dictatorship or kingdom and that type of government does force things on their populations who otherwise may not agree. This is why they get overthrown from time to time. Eventualy in the distant future such governments will cease to exist and all will have some form of democracy. Then the world could become a more peaceful place and start growing closer together, although by then we might be over populated and be fighting over resources. Let's hope not.

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