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Old 03-19-2015, 10:44 PM #5361
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
More like billions of years no? Stars systems and galaxies as you know are many light years away and soundwaves travel slower. If inter galactic contact is plausible it would require non mechanical means such as worm holes which is why i have thought the possibility of consciouness having a better chqnce of making contact with us if it was something that could exist outside of the mind.
Um, sound waves would not travel through space anyway, so its a moot point.



I would count a worm hole as mechanical I think, as far as there being something moving along as per physics, etc.

Consciousness would be, for example, your "Brain Waves", which, are not faster than a radio wave....so, there's nothing TO travel from your brain any faster, even if you figured out a way to do it.

The only way, realistically, to speed up the process, in a truly useful way, would be to find a way to go faster than the speed of light, and, by that, I don't mean a little faster, but thousands of times faster.

Right now, light is the fastest thing we know of...but, I suppose there might be something we don't yet know about.

It would have to be something we have not detected yet, with properties that blow the relativity thing wide open to new avenues to explore, etc.

Of course, so far, we seem to have things going back and forth between energy and matter at that speed...so, the undetected stuff could not be energy or matter given the current knowns at least.



Lets say for example that dark matter is dark energy, that slowed down enough to form dark matter, the way "light energy" slows down enough to form "matter".....but dark energy is faster than light energy.






If quantum pairing works over that sort of ridiculous range....that might add at least communication options?

And so forth....its really inconvenient that infinite distances are so FAR!



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Old 03-19-2015, 11:10 PM #5362
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I think that because no natural phenomenon can travel faster than light doesn't mean there isn't some technology we haven't discovered that could make it possible. I agree that radio probably won't work CETI is wasting their time, since about everything out there gives off natural radio signals I think it will get lost in the background static before it reaches us or ours reaches them unless there is someone close by who's even listening. I also suspect that radio may be a short lived technology in the life of a civilization, no doubt we will discover something better eventually. We could be surrounded by other inhabited worlds and not even be able to detect them because we're not looking for the right things. There could even be life out there so different that we wouldn't yet even recognize it as life. We should look for things that don't occur in nature, like coherent light of a single wave length, or the energy signature of a tritium detonation, if we can build sensitive enough detectors for that.

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Old 03-19-2015, 11:23 PM #5363
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I think that because no natural phenomenon can travel faster than light doesn't mean there isn't some technology we haven't discovered that could make it possible. I agree that radio probably won't work CETI is wasting their time, since about everything out there gives off natural radio signals I think it will get lost in the background static before it reaches us or ours reaches them unless there is someone close by who's even listening. I also suspect that radio may be a short lived technology in the life of a civilization, no doubt we will discover something better eventually. We could be surrounded by other inhabited worlds and not even be able to detect them because we're not looking for the right things. There could even be life out there so different that we wouldn't yet even recognize it as life. We should look for things that don't occur in nature, like coherent light of a single wave length, or the energy signature of a tritium detonation, if we can build sensitive enough detectors for that.

Alan
That's along the lines of what I was saying too.

On the other hand, if they get a radio signal, they WOULD know about where we were in our progress, when it was sent at least.

BUILDING and FUNDING an assortment of randomly projected things we COULD be looking for would never get approval, nor would it still be operational in any long-term lifespan.....

...So ET's ears would need to be "on", and, able to receive whatever we DID end up sending...to know we sent it.

I DO think its worth it to find out who else might be out there, its a grand question if ever there was one.

Its SUCH a long shot of course...and, we DO have so many things here and now that ALSO need our attention...

...but, I always come back to the idea that earth is a temporary home that has a limited life span, and, we WILL HAVE TO LEAVE TO SURVIVE AS A SPECIES.

The more we learn about who or what is out there, the better....as it will be a LOOOONG time before we have the capability TO leave with any chance of finding a NEW home.
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Old 03-19-2015, 11:37 PM #5364
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well there was a time that people didn't climb the highest mountains, and couldn't cross the oceans, we couldn't fly until recently, then we couldn't fly faster than the speed of sound, then we did, we couldn't travel into space, now we can. All these barriers were overcome. So will the others.

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Old 03-19-2015, 11:52 PM #5365
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Alcubierre drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Someday I think. I wouldn't be surprised if FTL travel is tied into the whole dark energy/dark matter mystery. If it doesn't interact with normal matter perhaps the rules that apply to normal matter don't apply to it either.

Maybe FTL travel is so hard to keep primitive civilizations from coming in contact with each other and starting wars. If a civilization can last long enough to achieve FTL travel then perhaps it means they've outgrown their desire to fight wars?
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Old 03-19-2015, 11:56 PM #5366
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Alcubierre drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Someday I think. I wouldn't be surprised if FTL travel is tied into the whole dark energy/dark matter mystery. If it doesn't interact with normal matter perhaps the rules that apply to normal matter don't apply to it either.

Maybe FTL travel is so hard to keep primitive civilizations from coming in contact with each other and starting wars. If a civilization can last long enough to achieve FTL travel then perhaps it means they've outgrown their desire to fight wars?
That's what I was talking about with matter/energy changing from one to the other as they cross the speed of light...with matter being slowed energy, etc.

If dark energy exists, and, dark matter is what we get when its slow enough, sure, lets hope dark energy is waaay faster than regular old energy.



Of course, we'd ALSO have to see if we could use dark energy as part of a propulsion system, etc.




The follow up to the drive:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...ble-in-the-lab

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Old 03-20-2015, 03:03 AM #5367
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Sound waves don't propagate in space. Theres no medium for them to travel though.

Radio waves are electromagnetic and travel at or near light speed.
Sorry I mis spoke I meant radio waves not sound waves. That's interesting Blarg, I never knew radio waves traveled near the speed of light but we are still talking about billions of years for these signals to reach other galaxies and star systems.
That being the case I agree with Pi that SETI is wasting a lot of time and tax dollars that could be better spent. I understand that its worth a shot as confirmation that we are not alone would be the greatest discovery in the history of our species but I think we can move on now as there are much more promising ways to at least calculate this if not provide evidence. Luckily SETI's budget isn't all that large.

Regarding faster then light travel, quantum entanglement used to suggest information may travel faster then light if these particles are indeed sharing information but correct me if I am wrong that's an out dated idea regarding this phenomena. Also rather than information "traveling" i have read ideas about information traveling back through time. Interesting stuff.
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Old 03-20-2015, 04:09 AM #5368
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Not necessarily billions of years for other star systems. It would only take 4 years for radio waves to reach the next nearest star system. And theres other star systems in the 10-ish light year range.
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:10 AM #5369
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

we dont know how time is spent in other galaxys either. 1 second in our planet could be equal to 10 years in another space and time. not to mention the time it takes a signal to get there . My head hurts even thinking of time and space...... possibilies are wide open
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:22 AM #5370
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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we dont know how time is spent in other galaxys either. 1 second in our planet could be equal to 10 years in another space and time. not to mention the time it takes a signal to get there . My head hurts even thinking of time and space...... possibilies are wide open
I dont follow. Why wouldn't time be relative in other galaxies?
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Old 03-20-2015, 10:08 AM #5371
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I dont follow. Why wouldn't time be relative in other galaxies?
No Idea, its open to possibilies really, it may very well be relative but again maybe not, who knows?
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Old 03-20-2015, 12:22 PM #5372
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

According to the theory of relativity, the time IN the craft traveling through space, and the time ON the planet they left, and the Planet they are going TO ARE all relative.

This is why they theorize that an astronaut returning to earth after a long enough flight could arrive back hundreds of years after his children died of old age, etc.

Intuitively, this is rubbish....but, they can MEASURE the time differences between things traveling at different speeds, etc....and, that's why they HAVE TO use this correction factor, for relativity, when calibrating GPS signals.

IE: The geosynchronous GPS satellites broadcast what time it is, and which satellite they are...and the ground based receiver in your car gets these signals, and computes where YOU are based upon triangulating your coordinates, based upon the time DIFFERENCES between each satellite, and, what time that satellite said it was when it send the signal.

When they did NOT correct for relativity, the GPS was off by a bit, because the times were all off by a bit.

Its heady stuff.



So, some of what we beamed out there at various star systems, because we see what those star systems looked like and where they were by the time their light reached us, potentially thousands of years later....not where and what they are NOW....they might not even exist by the time we see them, etc.

Like shooting a moving target with a shotgun, etc...we'd need to LEAD the target, and shoot our signals where the target WILL BE by the time our signal would reach them.

The Arecebo message for example was beamed at the apparent location of a star system, KNOWING that the system was not going to be there when the "message" arrived, or sent,....because it was merely a demonstration, not a real attempt to communicate.


I look at it this way:

Time IS relative, but, almost EVERYTHING is relative.

So it doesn't matter if a second here is not a second there, etc. By the time we get there, our seconds would be the same as theirs....because we don't own "seconds"...the location does.



We know we CAN predict much of this, evidenced by the multi-billion mile trajectory we calculated perfectly for the recent comet landing for example...firing the rocket off 10 YEARS before HITTING the comet, so that 10 YEARS LATER, everything was where it was predicted to be...and we planted a lander on the comet.


So, we have the technology to navigate out there...its a long range high speed propulsion system that we are in need of. Our best IN USE is the Ion Drive Engine, capable of ~ 1/10 light speed with current technology.

The other big bogey to overcome if we send PEOPLE out there, is what space DOES to us, including gamma rays, etc. AGING on long journeys is the rest of that issue. The gravity issue was solved with rotating housing, etc.

So, a ship with enough armor to withstand impacts with the various space rocks winging around, radiation bursts, etc...simulated gravity/or other means to prevent decalcification, etc, food/water/waste handling/oxygen/air scrubbing, etc...with an appropriate propulsion system, that can land on other worlds and allow colonization (Via appropriate supplies, test equipment, etc), would be the ticket out of here.

Its far more likely that we'd send unmanned ships though, as its obviously less dangerous, and, we'd need a LOT of them to scout out what's out there.

We'd start closer to us, so the flights are years not decades if possible...and so signals from the scouts could have time to get back to us and relay the findings...on a vaguely timely basis.

After being on the new world for a year or so, and collecting data on weather, critters, geology, atm, etc...the later colonists could arrive with the appropriate supplies geared for that environment....with fewer surprises.

If a scout finds a world or moon that we could move in on a turn-key basis for example, we could focus resources on more extensive research there, and mobilize colonization efforts, etc.

If such a world is found, and colonized, it can then act as a base from which to leap frog ANOTHER exploration to even more distant worlds, and so forth.
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Old 03-22-2015, 11:12 PM #5373
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Apparently, there are some who believe that allowing gay marriage will mean that woman will THEN be subject to men, dressed as women, in public restrooms....and a few other "Hair raising" horrors:

Religious broadcaster warns Christians to ?prepare for martyrdom? if Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage

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Old 03-23-2015, 12:02 AM #5374
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Apparently, there are some who believe that allowing gay marriage will mean that woman will THEN be subject to men, dressed as women, in public restrooms....and a few other "Hair raising" horrors:

Religious broadcaster warns Christians to ?prepare for martyrdom? if Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage

That is ridiculous! I am a Christian and even I think that is ridiculous. I do however think the federal government and Supreme Court should stay out of this and leave it to the states. It should be put to a vote in each state and in states that don't allow that then leave it to your elected representatives to decide. Leave it to the people to decide what they think. The reason gay and lesbian marriage is only now becoming legal in most of the U.S. is because of religion, and not just Christians but also other religions and churches have been against it. Some churches accept the LGBT people and some don't, some accept them as fully equal and allow them in leadership positions and ordained ministers. Let them decide for themselves if it's right or wrong. I would remind everyone here that we are supposed to have freedom of religion and a separation of church and state and we used to have democracy but that seems to be slipping away although that is another subject. Any religion or church can impose its own set of rules on its members and that is as it should be, but when it comes to laws that apply to everyone then let the people decide.

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Old 03-23-2015, 12:37 AM #5375
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
That is ridiculous! I am a Christian and even I think that is ridiculous. I do however think the federal government and Supreme Court should stay out of this and leave it to the states. It should be put to a vote in each state and in states that don't allow that then leave it to your elected representatives to decide. Leave it to the people to decide what they think. The reason gay and lesbian marriage is only now becoming legal in most of the U.S. is because of religion, and not just Christians but also other religions and churches have been against it. Some churches accept the LGBT people and some don't, some accept them as fully equal and allow them in leadership positions and ordained ministers. Let them decide for themselves if it's right or wrong. I would remind everyone here that we are supposed to have freedom of religion and a separation of church and state and we used to have democracy but that seems to be slipping away although that is another subject. Any religion or church can impose its own set of rules on its members and that is as it should be, but when it comes to laws that apply to everyone then let the people decide.

Alan


I agree. The problems started when civil and religious issues were blended together, so that marriage became a LEGAL standing, and not just a ceremony.

As soon as governments considered a religious rite to have legal standing, the trouble started.



Those who want marriage to be between a man and a woman, want THEIR version of marriage to be what EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO FOLLOW.

It USED to be that a tribe had a ceremony to recognize that two people were now off limits for mating, well, the woman was off limits at least.


As goods were traditionally exchanged in most cultures, essentially to pay the man to marry their daughter, etc...it HAD legal standing in terms of a contract for the property.

THAT'S what a marriage contract was all about, historically.


Add in religious mores, including virginity (Also = breach of contract), what ***es could or could not enter into the contract, what orifices were allowed and not allowed to be used, and so forth...and it just got progressively more complicated.

Vows were changed over time from "The man owns the woman and she must be faithful to him no matter what", to more along the lines of they vow to be faithful to each other, with some residual obey stuff in some of the language, etc.

So, its really a ceremony, and, it inherited legal status.

To take the religion back out, so that its the way marriage used to be (ORIGINALLY), historically, and stick to the legal aspect, is one option.

Simply saying there's no such thing as marriage, legally, is another way.

IE: Why does a single guy not get the tax break a married couple gets?

A single guy, if he has a dependent, might pay more than a married couple with the same income, with no dependents.

If the married couple are supposed to get the break because they might be raising a family, but are NOT, what's the point?

Why not just make it legal to claim dependents, and increase the deduction for them if appropriate, etc? (Even if you have no marital status relative to the dependents, as long as they ARE actually dependent upon your support, etc)

Why NOT just say anyone can say they are financially involved with anyone else, and therefore can sign legal documents, inherit, or authorize medical procedures, etc. If an insurance Co wants to "charge premiums per involved party" etc, fine, that's fair...family rates are higher than single rates, but are still a per person discount, etc...at present.

A couple are already sharing living expenses, so per person, its cheaper, not more expensive.

Why should the federal OR state OR municipal government be involved in marriage?

Just drop it....and people can have any religious ceremony they want to, and, can't make YOU have THEIRS.

As far as taxes, insurance, wills, etc...let that simply be a separate issue.





Disclaimer: I am married, to the same girl for many decades, my kids are grown, so my suggestion would not help ME at all.


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Old 03-23-2015, 01:47 AM #5376
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Country wide gay marriage here. So far no riots or breakdowns of society.

In fact I think we're generally a happier place.
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