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Old 03-18-2015, 01:12 AM #5345
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I kind of think if there be a God in some form or another, regardless of what we understand it is or not, that it just lets things happen, no interference. Once the human race was set in motion (well, the universe) I tend to think we were on our own but not alone; we have one another. All in all, I believe helping each other is the highest thing we can accomplish in life. When I say "we" I don't exclude much.


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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 03-18-2015 at 03:13 AM. Reason: edited, it didn't read right when I came back later.
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Old 03-18-2015, 02:35 AM #5346
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Ask God all you want, eventually you will get what you want when you tire of asking and go do something about it.

Might I seem a bit anti-religious? Not so much the religion itself, but what people will do in the name of their religion!
I think its perfectly reasonable to be anti religion. I don't despise all the people that are religious, well some of them, usabro for example, but the entire concept and effects on the world I am 100% against and have no problems saying so. IMO the world would be a much better place without religion and the good it sometimes does could never compare to the harm and suffering it causes.

I think religious people don't give themselves and their brethren enough credit. If its within a person to serve and love humankind they would do this without religion. Not all of coarse but I'm bet a lot more than most faithful think. My wife and I despise religion but also both have in the past and present do a lot of secular non profit charity work. Its just the right thing to do and I think most religious people would still do good loving acts without the God they feel is wanting them to. It is the people doing these good intentions yet they are so quick to give the credit to religion or god.

If the only reason you serve your fellow person is because of god then you aren't a very good person. You acts may be good but your intentions suck.
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Old 03-18-2015, 02:52 AM #5347
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

When "GOD" gave "man" the freedom of choice, did the term "man" (woman) imply an individual or perhaps the human race in total ? Not every human decides to be a good person but the majority seems to seek that unknown.
I realize that this question assumes the existence of a Creator but it seems to spread personal responsibility to mankind.
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Old 03-18-2015, 03:25 AM #5348
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The choice debate can be a deep rabbit hole to explore, maybe one without end. I've read some articles which seemed to demonstrate we don't have true freedom of choice, that we are without it, in reality. For some reason, I find that thought horrifying, whether in regard to me as an individual, or the whole of humanity.

I've seen studies that our choices come from deep inside of us before we even outwardly know what that choice will be... so who, or what is in control here?
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 03-18-2015, 03:47 AM #5349
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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They say "God helps those who help themselves." Meaning that if you at least try then you may get some help. I think that God has no sympathy for a lazy ass couch potato who wants to do nothing but is capable (doesn't apply to the sick and tired/disabled/old retired/retarded etc).

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If god wanted people to help themselves, then why did he create people who have no capacity to help themselves in the first place?

Goes back to the free will circle jerk. It's not really free will when you're threatening people with eternal damnation unless they follow your exact version of god's word.
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Old 03-18-2015, 04:11 AM #5350
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The choice debate can be a deep rabbit hole to explore, maybe one without end. I've read some articles which seemed to demonstrate we don't have true freedom of choice, that we are without it, in reality. For some reason, I find that thought horrifying, whether in regard to me as an individual, or the whole of humanity.

I've seen studies that our choices come from deep inside of us before we even outwardly know what that choice will be... so who, or what is in control here?
I'm with you Alaskan but am not sure my exact posistion still. there are very good arguments both philosophical and scientific that we don't actually have free will and I lean towards those being correct. Then of coarse there is the religious idea of free will. Lot of balls in the air.

As you would expect from my being an atheist, all the "god gave us free will" arguments IMO are pretty poor. The main reason given by theist is that god gave us free will so we can chose to come to him. This is also the convenient reason why our reality with the god of the bible is indistinguishable from a reality without god. In other words its how god can somehow manifest and interact with reality yet remain undetectable. The reason of the theist for this convenient possibility is so god doesn't affect our supposed gift of freewill by providing proof or even evidence of its existence.

Yet to me this is a crock because even if the Christian God of the Bible was to reveal his self to me right now that would in no way force me to choose to come to him nor take away my free will to reject him. In fact if the God of the bible was true and revealed his self to me right now I would not worship nor follow this deity even though I may then believe he exists. His existence could never excuse his immoral acts so I would rather burn in hell rather than he than worship a being that is so cruel and immoral.

I understand this god concept also has a "good" side but am for ever baffled how he gets a free pass at every sick and twisted turn. Its quite interesting that God and religion seem to both get this same treatment. When A child's cancer goes into remission it is God love, when an different cancer riddled child succumbs to disease even with the entire church and Christian community praying for her or him it's the ole "we don't know the mind of god". God never looses. When something good happens its God. When something bad happens its our precious free will. Mind you a free will thats main purpose is to stroke the ego of the God that makes the rules by us coming to him by choice. This stuff really does my head in.

Back to freewill as a concept. Has any theist here ever stopped and wondered why free will trumps any and all atrocities? Why is it that free will is say... more important than ending ALL HUMAN suffering?

To Jon Doe theist- I will assume you feel its not right to impose your will on others as do I. But if you knew there was a man repeatedly raping your child in the next room, is there any justification you could imagine that preserving the rapists freewill would be more important than stopping your child from being raped? Because that's what God does Every single second of every single day. If the indescribable suffering and truly evil things that happen each day doesn't convince you that there is NOBODY upstairs I don't know why. And if you are of the school of thought that God allows this all to happen because he loves us so freaking much that he must preserve our freewill so we can Choose to come to him is okay with you and you would still choose to worship that being, well there is the division between atheists and theist as clearly as it could be written.

I own firearms and enjoy this right granted to me by the constitution but if handing over my firearms would stop the needless slaughter of millions I would do it tonight. Its the same with free will. What decent and moral person wouldn't happily trade their free will if it would stop all human suffering?
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Old 03-18-2015, 04:19 AM #5351
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Your words echo from the ones I have expressed in the past myself "...so I would rather burn in hell rather than worship a being that is so cruel and immoral." I know the sentiment very well.

OK, with or without God, I think the universe goes far deeper than we can imagine for conscious beings, that life doesn't end for us when we die. Some believe for such to be reality there must be God, I don't think one necessarily follows the other.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

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Old 03-18-2015, 04:22 AM #5352
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Your words echo from the ones I have expressed in the past myself "...so I would rather burn in hell rather than worship a being that is so cruel and immoral."

I don't think there need be a God to be spiritual beings and I believe the universe goes far deeper than we can imagine for conscious beings and that life doesn't end for us when we die. Some believe for such to be reality you have to have God, I don't think so.
I couldn't agree more. I never understood why the two seemed to have to go hand in hand. there are other concepts and options. I know one thing as surely as is possible and that is reality is not only more peculiar than we suppose but more peculiar than we CAN suppose. We have only begun to scratch the surface of understanding consciousness and I find it possible that some form of consciousness could continue after human death but I still see no God requirement for this to be so if it is. This doesn't have to be supernatural in any way. I don't believe in super nature but projects like the CIA's remote viewing and other types of black projects seem to suggest at the very least enough actual science behind consciousness laying outside the physical mind to research it. If consciousness can be projected to another place other than the residing mind then it may be plausible to think it could continue after death.
Or not.
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Old 03-18-2015, 05:42 AM #5353
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have nothing in the world to back this idea up, so if someone wants to show reality to me, as we know it, and completely diss the idea feel welcome, I cannot defend it, but I suspect there is a pyramid of creation going on which at the high end of the process creates consciousness, grows our individual "souls" for lack of a better word, as we continue to live. Like the first atoms later fused into the elements we have now, those in turn became planets, the planets grew life, life grows consciousness, consciousness creates something greater and so on... Maybe Twilight Zone material? LOL, yet I suspect something like that is happening.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 03-18-2015, 12:44 PM #5354
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:20 PM #5355
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
So you agree with this man?

Do you no longer identify as Christian and now will be converting to Judaism?
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Old 03-19-2015, 09:27 AM #5356
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I always thought God / Jesus and all the other amazing people through religion may have been another life form other than plain old human like E.T. , aliens or just something! that may have been able to amaze humans with extra powers and technology in the day and age they presented themselves
Which may have easily tricked mankind into thinking they are some kind of god etc, then they could tell any old story
about past , present and future and be beleived by the naive humans of the day,
Sounds like a weird theory i know , but i do somehow believe that the history of many religions has something to do with life other than humans
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:16 PM #5357
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RYDorDIE278 View Post
I always thought God / Jesus and all the other amazing people through religion may have been another life form other than plain old human like E.T. , aliens or just something! that may have been able to amaze humans with extra powers and technology in the day and age they presented themselves
Which may have easily tricked mankind into thinking they are some kind of god etc, then they could tell any old story
about past , present and future and be beleived by the naive humans of the day,
Sounds like a weird theory i know , but i do somehow believe that the history of many religions has something to do with life other than humans


Its not out of the question at least. And it avoids all the supernatural mumbo jumbo/superstitions and so forth.



Its less likely given the odds of a civilization going through what it would need to to FIND other sentient life in the infiniteness of space...and time....

...and limiting their interactions to some myths.

Some of the early explorers who encountered native tribes, etc, took advantage that their giant sailing ships and armor, etc, made them appear as gods for example...but, well, for all intents and purposes, they didn't just leave afterwards, they send colonists who eventually replaced or displaced the natives, and started sending the resources back to their home bases, etc.

Given that two civilizations (In space) have to EXIST during a TIME that they are BOTH able to perceive each other, AND have to FIND each other, IN that narrow time span...I could see plenty of civilizations existing...but as space is INFINITE, really, what are the ODDS of FINDING each other, under those conditions?

"Infinitely far away" could be so far that no amount of time would allow for traversing it.

On the other hand, in our part of the known universe, etc...we DO see a lot of POTENTIALLY life supporting planets and moons, etc. They are ridiculously far away, but, not SO far that its not at least conceivable to reach them one day.

The really SCARY question would be, if the universe we see has an age, and, some projected end game scenarios for the assorted suns to die, etc...

ANY living things in our universe have a time limit. There's a clock ticking away the seconds left to star deaths...and, any civilization that has not evolved enough to get the hell out of Dodge before their Sun kills them, will be lost forever, without a trace.

If all of our stars got the firing pistol shot at about the same time...give or take a few billion years, we're ALL probably somewhere along the same evolutionary process...and, therefore, if one of THEM starts transmitting radio signals that WE might one day RECEIVE....

It could take THOUSANDS OF YEARS for their signal to reach us.

If WE send signals into space, it could take THOUSANDS of years for anyone out there to receive THEM too, etc.


We ALL could be sending at this very minute, but, not get each other's signal until long after the sender's descendant's deaths...

...and, then, the ANSWER would take the same time to GET BACK, to tell the sender SOMEONE ANSWERED!!!!

It would be like some Bronze Age Mesopotamian Scientist sends the radio signal ~ 3,000 BC, and, in ~ 2,000 AD, some scientist on a planet 5,000 light years away RECEIVED it....


...and Sends back a message, We received your radio transmission, and want to Friend You!

...and, 5,000 years later, in the year 7,000 AD or so, WE get the answer and say "WOW!!!! There IS life out there after all!!!!

We accept your friend request, and, want to invite you over for a play date!"


Some time 5,000 years later, they GET that message, ~ 12,000 AD, and start plans to come over for the play date, replying that they'll be there in ~ 5,000 years, traveling at the speed of light.

As it takes ~ 5,000 years to GET the message, the visitors arrive shortly after the reply, hopefully in time to have enough Solo Cups, chips and hot dogs, etc....in the year ~ 17,000 AD or so.

Plan B is they simply start coming ~ 2,000 AD when they get the signal, and just come to check it out, arriving ~ 7,000 AD.


IE: If a Bronze Age dude sent the signals in ~ 3,000 BC, no one would show up (From 5,000 light years away) until ~ 7,000 AD.


Its a SLOW process.


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Old 03-19-2015, 10:32 PM #5358
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

More like billions of years no? Stars systems and galaxies as you know are many light years away and soundwaves travel slower. If inter galactic contact is plausible it would require non mechanical means such as worm holes which is why i have thought the possibility of consciouness having a better chqnce of making contact with us if it was something that could exist outside of the mind.
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:40 PM #5359
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I like to hope that there are shortcuts and/or tricks to circumventing FTL travel. I hate to think of our big huge universe actually teeming with life, but none of it getting to interact with each other. Perhaps its just wishful thinking though.

I would definitely accept extraterrestrials visiting and using technology to pretend to be gods over actual supernatural beings. At least aliens are a real possibility based on known fact.

Another problem with radio signals in space is that even though they travel infinitely, they become so weak that they fade into the background. The most powerful radio transmitter in operation only outputs 2.5 Kw, which is a lot for terrestrial use, and if it was a focused, directed source would be good for long range inter solar system communication, but if the radio waves just travel out in every direction, that energy is going to weaken exponentially with distance.

Here's a fun read though on possible alien radio transmissions.
Wow! signal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:41 PM #5360
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
More like billions of years no? Stars systems and galaxies as you know are many light years away and soundwaves travel slower.
Sound waves don't propagate in space. Theres no medium for them to travel though.

Radio waves are electromagnetic and travel at or near light speed.
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