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Old 03-04-2015, 11:30 PM #5249
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Your getting ahead of things there. First we need to prove it even exists and then find out what it is.



It is you who are hiding behind something invisible, 80% of the universe made of something we can't find, and can't detect except that something we can't see appears to have gravity? Do you really believe this? Now if anything requires faith, that certainly does. I think it far more likely that there is some error in current theories.

Alan


LOL

I'm not the military, so, I don't need to hide...and....the very fact that we know there's missing mass out there IS the "theory" (A hypothesis actually). (BTW - The military would have been the party behind the lemon juice...in case that wasn't clear)


IE: We can measure the effects, and observe the way things are moving relative to each other, and, that IS WHY we want to know what it is...that's DOING THAT.

Its no more "Faith" than seeing clouds for the first time and needing faith that we see a white fluffy thing in the sky we want to investigate.

That's not faith, that's curiosity.





We already know it exists, due to its observed effects....what we need to do is investigate the parts we DON'T know...so, eventually, we can understand what's going on.

The name "Dark Matter", is a way to refer to it, not a theory. The "theory" is that there's something out there we need to investigate, that is having gravitational effects.




To clarify - its not a theory, its a hypothesis. A theory requires a much higher burden of proof, and, Dark Matter is far too poorly understood to qualify as other than an observed impact on the universe...and the "suff" doing that is simply referred to as dark matter so as to have a name for it.


I am noticing repeated tortured attempts by several posters to refer to things as requiring "faith".

Is there an agenda here that needs to be spelled out or something?



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Old 03-04-2015, 11:48 PM #5250
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We know mass creates gravity, and we know that gravity is a distortion of space-time.

What I mean when I say we don't know how gravity works is that we don't know WHY mass bends space-time. We don't know how gravity propagates, as it is not a particle, wave, or to our knowledge, anything. Yet it exists.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:50 PM #5251
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

I'm not the military, so, I don't need to hide...and....the very fact that we know there's missing mass out there IS the "theory" (A hypothesis actually). (BTW - The military would have been the party behind the lemon juice...in case that wasn't clear)

How do we know there is missing mass out there? I need more than just that there is extra gravity that we can't yet explain.

IE: We can measure the effects, and observe the way things are moving relative to each other, and, that IS WHY we want to know what it is...that's DOING THAT.

Its no more "Faith" than seeing clouds for the first time and needing faith that we see a white fluffy thing in the sky we want to investigate.

That's not faith, that's curiosity.



Clouds are easy to see with the naked eye, we know they exist and even know what they are made of and why they exist and can even predict when we will see them. (most of the time anyway)

We already know it exists, due to its observed effects....what we need to do is investigate the parts we DON'T know...so, eventually, we can understand what's going on.

The name "Dark Matter", is a way to refer to it, not a theory. The "theory" is that there's something out there we need to investigate, that is having gravitational effects.





I am noticing repeated tortured attempts by several posters to refer to things as requiring "faith".

Is there an agenda here that needs to be spelled out or something?
.

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Old 03-05-2015, 12:45 AM #5252
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

From the Wikipedia entry on dark matter:

"Astrophysicists hypothesized dark matter because of discrepancies between the mass of large astronomical objects determined from their gravitational effects and the mass calculated from the observable matter (stars, gas, and dust) that they can be seen to contain. Dark matter was postulated by Jan Oort in 1932, albeit based upon flawed or inadequate evidence, to account for the orbital velocities of stars in the Milky Way and by Fritz Zwicky in 1933 to account for evidence of "missing mass" in the orbital velocities of galaxies in clusters. Adequate evidence from galaxy rotation curves was discovered by Horace W. Babcock in 1939, but was not attributed to dark matter. The first to postulate dark matter based upon robust evidence was Vera Rubin in the 1960s–1970s, using galaxy rotation curves.[6][7] Subsequently many other observations have indicated the presence of dark matter in the Universe, including gravitational lensing of background objects by galaxy clusters such as the Bullet Cluster, the temperature distribution of hot gas in galaxies and clusters of galaxies and, more recently, the pattern of anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background."

Long story short, distant galaxies bend light,or in other words, have stronger gravity, than their visible mass suggests they should.
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Old 03-05-2015, 01:17 AM #5253
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Clouds can be seen with the naked eye, and, the effects of gravity and gravitational lensing are also observable....since ~ 1932.

So, from a scientific perspective, it would be just another observation that requires an explanation.

Its not really "Extra gravity we can't explain", its more like observations of the EFFECT that gravity has when its from OBSERVABLE SOURCES, but, without being able to observe the source.



So, we are seeing things that, if some visible objects were present of sufficient mass, in the correct location were there, to exert a force...the effect would be the same...

...but we can't see those objects.


Think of as along the lines of YOU seeing a leaf skittering along the ground and swirling into the air, as if being carried by the wind...except you don't actually know if there IS a wind or not, you just see effects that you associate with the effects of wind on leaves.

That's what they see going on out there.
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Old 03-05-2015, 02:58 PM #5254
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Would that be a fair interpretation?
No it would not be, that's taking something we don't know, saying it's the same as something we do know, and therefore doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Ah, I see. You're saying it's not the bible's fault for being bat-shit crazy, it's the fault of the people who are bat-shit crazy enough to believe it

On the contrary.

"I read in a book there are a group of teens that can shape-shift into any animal they come in contact with. your rejection of that claim based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make it invalid or discredit its possibility."

"I read in a book there is a god living on the top of a mountain that summons lightning with the help of a blacksmith named Hephaestus. Your rejection of this idea based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make it invalid or discredit its possibility. My belief in this doesn't force me to reject what we do know about nature."
First you twist my words, views, and insult my beliefs. Then use some word substitution to compare animorphs to Christianity, as if they are legitimately comparable.

If your previous statement is true and your desire here is to "Plant seeds of doubt", your conduct and shallow dealings with people shoots yourself in the foot.



Also Pi R is making a good point with the dark matter discussion. Some of you are very hostile to the idea of believing in a God you cannot see but can observe the effects of, and you demand undeniable proof or a physical manifestation of God himself to appear before you.
Yet the idea of dark matter you're so willing to accept and don't show even a fraction of the hostility or skepticism you put towards Jesus.

Quote:
British philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), in his defense for atheism, wrote in his book, Why I Am Not A Christian, and gave the logical conclusion to the atheist’s worldview.

“That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of the universe in ruins. . . . Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

This pitiful statement is as good as it gets for an atheist.
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Old 03-05-2015, 05:20 PM #5255
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
No it would not be, that's taking something we don't know, saying it's the same as something we do know, and therefore doesn't make sense.
Let's recap. You said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I do not believe Genesis was written as a historical or scientific text.

Supernatural things [...] my belief in them doesn't force me to reject what we do understand about nature.
So the supernatural things, you do know what they are then, since they make sense to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Also Pi R is making a good point with the dark matter discussion. Some of you are very hostile to the idea of believing in a God you cannot see but can observe the effects of, and you demand undeniable proof or a physical manifestation of God himself to appear before you.
Yet the idea of dark matter you're so willing to accept and don't show even a fraction of the hostility or skepticism you put towards Jesus.
Except that;

1. The effects we observe can be attributed to dark matter.

2. Can you present an effect that can be consistently attributed to god? Gravity maybe... can we pray to alter it?

3. Last I checked dark matter theorists weren't a billion strong and demanding people change how they live.

Your response is similar to how I expect the church responded to being told the earth isn't flat.
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Old 03-05-2015, 05:40 PM #5256
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah theres nothing that can be proven to be attributed to God. Sorry.

Also, believing in Dark Matter doesn't require me to alter my lifestyle or pass judgement on others, so its pretty much harmless.
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Old 03-05-2015, 06:10 PM #5257
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

The issues seem to revolve around scientists' attempts to learn about a newly discovered phenomenon as compared to a religion.


There seems to be an assumption by theists, that trying to learn about something unknown, is like a religion...and, that therefore,

...science is like a religion and/or having a potential explanation, based upon scientific methods, is like a religion. (IE: Requires "Faith")



Pretend we can't see very far...and, sometimes, we see shadows, big ones, on the ground...and they seem to move in the same direction as the wind is blowing.

Sometimes, when these shadows are over us, water falls on our heads, or ice or snow.

We don't tend to get that stuff on us when we are not in the shadow though.


Some of us will ignore it, and if water, etc, is falling, we cover our heads and continue our business.

SOME of us might try to figure out WHAT is going ON.


Some hypotheses might be developed to explain the shadow matter.

Some observations might be made, and, more data collected about the type of shadows, patterns, precipitation patterns, whether the season/temperature or humidity, or barometer readings, etc, matters.




One person might wonder if its god crying. Another might wonder if its the devil crying. Another might wonder if there's some way for something up in the sky to absorb moisture from the air, and, let it fall on us once in a while.

A bunch of scientists might get together and compare notes and observations, and agree that the mostly PROMISING leads seem to involve a drop in barometric readings correlating to an increase in precipitation, the temperature correlating to whether ice, snow, or water fell, and the odd tendency for the shadow to follow the wind direction and speed.

Another scientist may point out existing research that had shown the water on the ground and in bodies of water, evaporated into the air, but, they didn't know where it went from there.

They might do some additional research, and find that the calculated amounts that evaporate are similar to the amounts that seem to come back down from the shadow matter.

They might ponder this, and then hypothesize that the shadow matter may even BE the evaporated moisture!


They then publish this hypothesis, to see if others could corroborate it.


So, they say shadow matter may be clouds of moisture vapor, or at least material that can absorb and release that moisture.


Some groups insist that they cannot KNOW that, because they've never SEEN these clouds, and just because they see some things that might have that effect, they can't claim that's what it IS.

The scientists say they never said thy KNEW, just that that was, so far, their best guess, based upon their evidence so far.

A group might say, yes, but, don't you have to have FAITH to say that clouds of water in the sky are what makes water fall on us? Don't you have to have FAITH to say that there IS shadow matter?


And the scientists say no, its not faith, its curiosity, and, that's what they think so far, as it explains the observed phenomena.

If more data comes in, and, allows them to refine or redirect their investigations, they will follow it where ever it leads.

And the groups might say, yeah, but as you DON'T understand what shadow matter really is, it could be supernatural.

Anything that man doesn't understand could be supernatural, and, it could be a sign of god.


And the scientists agree that the groups DO tend to feel all unexplained phenomena COULD be a sign of god, but that natural explanations are still more likely based upon historical patterns of all phenomena, previously attributed to the supernatural, later being found to have natural explanations...so, they'll keep investigating to see what those might be.

We don't "Believe in" shadow matter...we see evidence that something is going on, and, we have hypotheses about what that might be, and, we refer to that as "shadow matter".


And the groups say, yeah, you thinking there will be a natural explanation, is the same as us thinking that there will be a supernatural explanation.


And the scientists say, fine, we'll do what mankind always has done in the past...we'll work on finding the natural explanation, and you can assume there's a supernatural one until we find it.


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Old 03-05-2015, 06:21 PM #5258
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

My religion is Apostolic (Pentecostal) read the KJV Bible and study it you'll see that three gods don't exist. What the name of the son? Jesus. What's the name of the Father? Jesus.
Didn't Jesus say that he was in the Father and the Father in a Him? What's the name of the Spirit? Jesus. Jesus is the Holy Ghost
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Old 03-05-2015, 06:27 PM #5259
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by LoveDemBurningLAZERZ View Post
My religion is Apostolic (Pentecostal) read the KJV Bible and study it you'll see that three gods don't exist. What the name of the son? Jesus. What's the name of the Father? Jesus.
Didn't Jesus say that he was in the Father and the Father in a Him? What's the name of the Spirit? Jesus. Jesus is the Holy Ghost
So, I THINK most Christians believe that its all the same guy with three names/forms...and not three separate entities....

...and just ignore the passages where Jesus asks himself for guidance, says he's less than himself, etc.

They also ignore, variously, the tendency of some sects to pray to saints, angels, etc.

Otherwise, its not a "monotheistic religion".


The earliest drafts had more of the conversations between Jesus and God, and, it was hundreds of years of agonizing over how to deal with that...and they decided to eliminate all of it as too confusing to the agreed upon religion. Some got left in, as back then, proofing was really really hard...and stuff left from before they decided that Jesus and god were the same, was left in in some spots.

In the REALLY earliest versions, Jesus was still a rebel Jew fighting the Romans, his father was still traceable back to the Jewish high priest lineage needed to qualify for being the jewish messiah, his mom and dad were Mary and Joseph (Joe was the one with the required bloodline)...etc. Mary didn't get her virginity back for hundreds of years when they later decided it unseemly for Jesus to not have a more holy beginning, so the virgin birth scenario, barn, wisemen star and all, was borrowed from some earlier culture's stories and inserted...but they forgot to take out the stuff about his dad's bloodline and so forth...forgetting it was no longer relevant if Joseph isn't going to be his dad from then on, etc.

Its not easy forging a religion, that's for sure.


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Old 03-05-2015, 08:30 PM #5260
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
First you twist my words, views, and insult my beliefs. Then use some word substitution to compare animorphs to Christianity, as if they are legitimately comparable.
This is just another "I disagree, but I refuse to explain why" statement from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDemBurningLAZERZ View Post
What the name of the son? Jesus. What's the name of the Father? Jesus.
Didn't Jesus say that he was in the Father and the Father in a Him? What's the name of the Spirit? Jesus. Jesus is the Holy Ghost
Is Jesus his own grandpa, too?
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:30 PM #5261
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej Everything ur saying sounds like ur trying to say that everything isn't a relegeion. Also Jesus could have either been born in a stable or a cave we really don't know

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Old 03-05-2015, 08:38 PM #5262
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

No cyparagon why would He be his own grandpa. But u should check out Ray Stevens "I'm my own grandpa" video it's funny. God is a Spirit and Jesus was a man but Jesus was all of Gods characteristics put in flesh by God so that I guess he could become physical to us so that we may be able to see him. But God wrapped Himself in flesh which is Jesus and if Jesus is pretty much God in Flesh that means that God and Jesus are the same.
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:15 PM #5263
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 03-05-2015, 09:19 PM #5264
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What?
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