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Old 03-04-2015, 11:20 AM #5233
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
I read this forum frequently and I now have a dumb question....
Dark Matter --- we believe it makes up about 80% of our universe.
1. We think it is there from observations but we can't prove it even with
our best machines.
2. We think it is causing the known universe to expand to somewhere.
3. In the expansion, galaxies collide perhaps causing death to unknown organisms.
4. It appears to surround us on all sides and maybe within our existence.
5. Its composition is unknown.

Could this be a new religion? Science believes it is there but we can't prove it
but we have faith that we will discover it someday.

HMike
I think you got that right. To me it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that we can't find 80% of what the universe is made of, I would believe it if there were more evidence. To try to measure the weight of galaxies and find they only have 20% the mass they should have compared to the gravity they have tells me there is probably something wrong in the way we measure this or more likely something wrong with our theory of how gravity works. But no, instead of trying to figure out what we're doing wrong they decide the univers is made mostly of something we can't find, let's call it dark matter and let's look for it! This seems to me like the most idiotic thing to ever come out of modern science, I hope I am wrong about this, if I am not then there are many scientists wasting their lives looking for something that doesn't exist!

Alan


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Old 03-04-2015, 11:46 AM #5234
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
I read this forum frequently and I now have a dumb question....
Dark Matter --- we believe it makes up about 80% of our universe.
1. We think it is there from observations but we can't prove it even with
our best machines.
2. We think it is causing the known universe to expand to somewhere.
3. In the expansion, galaxies collide perhaps causing death to unknown organisms.
4. It appears to surround us on all sides and maybe within our existence.
5. Its composition is unknown.

Could this be a new religion? Science believes it is there but we can't prove it
but we have faith that we will discover it someday.

HMike


I'd call it a hypothesis more than a religion.

The primary difference between "believing" that something might be the case in religion vs science, is that for the scientific beliefs, there are clues that were used to discover the belief, and, experiments and observations that indicate that the belief may be valid.

IE: For dark matter, calculations based upon the way bodies in space interact with each other, etc, indicate that known mass is not adequate to explain every thing well.

Other studies indicate other aspects of why dark matter is likely to exist.

We don't KNOW if dark matter is real per se, it could be a combination of other unknowns that collectively produce the observed effects for example.

The religious beliefs on the other hand are more dogmatic, in that, for the organized "monotheistic" religions especially, the beliefs are provided independently, and, no verifiable evidence is available for an individual to evaluate.

A person who does not know anything about a religion can read about it and talk to scholars of that religion, but, what they would find is that the "data" is essentially ancient hearsay passed down as "true", albeit ALL of the passed down versions of this "truth" are different, and, in many cases, in conflict.

Interpretations are wildly different, and, there are few ways to evaluate the data due to the sources being essentially unknown and attributed to supernatural events.

A person who does not know anything about a scientific principle or concept, can also read about it, and talk to scholars of that branch of science.

What they tend to find are the actual sources, and, experiments, and observations that lead to the formation of a theory or hypothesis, and, the availability of current research that verifies the earlier work, and, tends to have built from it.

They could reproduce the earlier data, and, check it for themselves, and verify its truth. They could also find earlier hypothesis that explained things, that were later replaced by other hypothesis that explained things better, or, proven to have been false, and replaced by new research, and so forth.

There is no faith required for science, because its not dogmatic, its based upon verifiable data...and, flexible as new data is available.


If you want to say a non-scientist is using faith to take the word of a scientist w/o understanding what the scientist based his conclusions upon, that's a different use of the word faith.

Its more akin to thinking it will rain tomorrow because the weatherman said so...even though you yourself are not meteorologically savvy. Faith that it will rain is not a religion...merely trusting a professional opinion.

If a professional's opinion tends to be reliable, and, in the case of weather for example, that's about as fuzzy, prediction-wise as you can get...but, at least there are understood principles involved, radar maps of the incoming storms, calculations that try to predict if a storm will curve east or west here or there, etc...and, a logic involved that you can verify. The results and accuracy are impacted by random aspects that weather is composed of though.



So on Wednesday, the weatherman says "There's an 80% chance of rain next Tuesday, and it should be in the low 80's". He shows a map with a warm wet front coming in, and why he thinks the weather that will result is projected.

On Tuesday, it in the 90's, and partly cloudy, and doesn't rain.


And, Religion says on Wednesday, "Pray for our poor brother John, who's in the hospital with cancer, and pray that god cures John's cancer".

On Tuesday, John dies of cancer.



The weatherman had updated his predictions after Wednesday though, and showed that the previously predicted front was swinging off to the side, and (maybe on Monday) that Tuesday would be more likely to be in the 70's and partly cloudy.

There are maps and charts, etc, that show why.


The priest, when asked on Tuesday why John died even though they prayed, is told it was simply his time...and its all god's plan.



If a non-scientist asks about evolution, he can read the research, and follow the thought processes and observations that lead to the current thought and theories, etc. He could even go to the locations cited, and make the same observations, talk to scientists who are doing the research, etc. It would be possible to independently verify claims.

If a scientist makes a claim, other scientists verify, or, find faults, and publish their findings that support, or disprove the other scientist's work.

A peer review process, and being able to duplicate experiments to prove they work is part of the process.

A scientist may conduct a flawed, or even dishonest study, but, when others try to duplicate their experiments, if flawed or bogus, it comes to light...and the scientific community will publish what was wrong with the other study, etc.

This happened recently for a study on climate change, where a scientist had used for inflated numbers that exaggerated an effect. When his work was peer reviewed, this was discovered, and the study was discredited proportionally. IE: There was still the effect, but, it was less dramatic than the scientist had claimed, based upon the data. There's no faith. It either works, or needs work...or to be trashed, etc. Things are sorted out over time based upon whether the claims are supportable given the evidence.







So, a scientist says "I have created cold fusion! Here's how!"

And, other scientists repeat the other scientist's experiment, and find flaws that disprove the veracity of it.

And, the other scientists would say "we tried to do what you said would work, but, it didn't work, so, we don't think you created cold fusion".


If it were a faith, and not a process, the scientist would say "I have created cold fusion! Here's how!"

And, the other scientists would say "we tried to do what you said would work, but, it didn't work, so, we don't think you created cold fusion".

And the scientist would say "You'll have to trust me on this, because I know in my heart of hearts that I DID create cold fusion, but, it only works for me, so no one can independently verify that I did it, you just have to take my word for it, because it only works if you believe it works".

And, the other scientists would say (If its a faith) "Yay! Science has created Cold Fusion!".



So, science is a process, not a faith. If you need to say that some people accept scientific explanations on faith, the context would be more like people who take their doctor's advice, because they know the doctor studied medicine, and, that he is likely to base the advice on sound principles diluted by whatever the insurance will cover, etc.

Faith, in the religious context, essentially requires that same trust but without the knowledge of what it is based upon.

Essentially, you don't NEED faith if you HAVE evidence, because religious faith is based upon NOT having the evidence, and sticking to the advice regardless of anything that indicates that the advice is flawed.

IE: If there is evidence that conflicts with the teachings of the Church, it is to test your faith...and must be resisted.

So "Faith" is not used in the same context for science and religion.



For the UNKNOWNS, Religion is mostly "the answer is god".

Science, for UNKNOWNS, is mostly "I don't know, lets see if we can figure out what's going on"



Attributing unexplained events/observations to the supernatural is a massive cop out IMHO.


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Old 03-04-2015, 12:17 PM #5235
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It does take some amount of faith to look for something that there is no proof of. You have to believe that there is some chance it exists. Looking for dark matter is like looking for UFO's, bigfeet, or ghosts, in each of those cases there is evidence of some real phenomenon that hasn't been explained or been proven yet by science. If something isn't proven yet, many people won't believe it exists, but some people will have faith that it exists and look for it because they have seen or experienced something that indicates it may exist, or in some cases because someone else claims it exists.

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Old 03-04-2015, 01:30 PM #5236
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It does take some amount of faith to look for something that there is no proof of. You have to believe that there is some chance it exists. Looking for dark matter is like looking for UFO's, bigfeet, or ghosts, in each of those cases there is evidence of some real phenomenon that hasn't been explained or been proven yet by science. If something isn't proven yet, many people won't believe it exists, but some people will have faith that it exists and look for it because they have seen or experienced something that indicates it may exist, or in some cases because someone else claims it exists.

Alan
Its not the same use of the word faith though.

You could just as easily say its a hypothesis for example. As in, I have some reasons that indicate that there is a force that draws masses together.

I don't know it will prove to be gravity.

So, its not FAITH that this force exists, its a guess, based upon evidence that indicates it MIGHT exist.


Again, faith, as used in the religious sense at least (our context) requires that you DON'T have evidence to believe something...or, you would not NEED faith to believe it.




Otherwise, the meaning is blurred to the point of meaningless. "I have faith that I will blink soon", I have faith that the restaurant will be 1 mile down the road" etc.

Faith, should mean that the belief is WITHOUT basis, otherwise, you don't need to simply believe it. IE: Its faith, if believed with NO evidence, or even with evidence against it, and, a guess, WITH at least some evidence for it.

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Old 03-04-2015, 04:37 PM #5237
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It does take some amount of faith to look for something that there is no proof of.
You have a lot to learn if you think there is NO proof of dark matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
In the expansion, galaxies collide perhaps causing death to unknown organisms.
That's not how galactic collisions work! The structure of each galaxy is torn apart, but the constituents (ie solar systems) remain intact. The chance of a solar system colliding with another is incredibly slim because a galaxy is almost 100% open space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
Could this be a new religion? Science believes it is there but we can't prove it
but we have faith that we will discover it someday.
That's the beautiful thing about science, though. Science PREDICTS this stuff exists. After the prediction, experiments can be conducted to prove or disprove the prediction.

You clearly don't know much about particle physics, because we were in the same boat with most of these particles. Each of them are now proven to exist:

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Old 03-04-2015, 05:39 PM #5238
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It does take some amount of faith to look for something that there is no proof of.
There is proof though. We can see it in the way it influences gravity. We know it exists, we just don't know how it works or what its made of.

Its like black holes. We can't see them directly, but we see how they affect the gravity around them and by that process determine their existence.


If someone were to dump a big chunk of some random element in front of me, I may not know what it is, but I can still tell its there and prove it to other people.
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Old 03-04-2015, 05:57 PM #5239
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well then you come over here and dump a big chunk of dark matter in front of me, then I'll be able to tell its there and prove it to other people. It should be easy to find since its 80% of the universe.

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Old 03-04-2015, 06:16 PM #5240
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Easy to find by observing its effects. The problem is, it doesn't interact with "normal" matter so directly observing it or obtaining it isn't possible by known science. That and there isn't any in our solar system, so even if we found a way to capture/contain some, you would be waiting a long, long time to get some.

You can't see gravity, yet you know its there because you can feel it and observe its affects on its surroundings. And we sure don't know how gravity works, yet we know its there and accept that it exists. Its not that exotic a concept that there are things we cannot directly see yet we know are there.
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Old 03-04-2015, 06:34 PM #5241
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Easy to find by observing its effects. The problem is, it doesn't interact with "normal" matter so directly observing it or obtaining it isn't possible by known science. That and there isn't any in our solar system, so even if we found a way to capture/contain some, you would be waiting a long, long time to get some.

You can't see gravity, yet you know its there because you can feel it and observe its affects on its surroundings. And we sure don't know how gravity works, yet we know its there and accept that it exists. Its not that exotic a concept that there are things we cannot directly see yet we know are there.
Easy to find is it? Where is it then? How do you know those effects aren't caused by invisible unicorns? If it doesn't interact with "normal" matter then you wouldn't be able to observe any effects. How do you know there isn't any in our solar system? Do you believe this because we can't find any?

You say we don't know how gravity works, there is the problem, we don't know how it works, so we can't assume those gravitational effects are caused by some invisible matter that we can't find. There could be other forces at work, gravity may interact with other forces in a way that we don't know about yet.

Alan
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:08 PM #5242
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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Easy to find is it? Where is it then? How do you know those effects aren't caused by invisible unicorns? If it doesn't interact with "normal" matter then you wouldn't be able to observe any effects. How do you know there isn't any in our solar system? Do you believe this because we can't find any?

You say we don't know how gravity works, there is the problem, we don't know how it works, so we can't assume those gravitational effects are caused by some invisible matter that we can't find. There could be other forces at work, gravity may interact with other forces in a way that we don't know about yet.

Alan
We don't know how gravity works, but we do know mass creates gravity. Thus, even though dark matter/energy doesn't itself interact with normal matter, the gravitational effects it creates does, and we can observe these effects on normal matter.

Mass is the only thing ever observed creating gravity, thus its a safe bet to assume that these gravitation affects observed are also cause by mass.

Dark matter does not emmit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, thus we cannot directly observe it, hence why it is "dark".

We know there is none in our solar system because there are no gravitational irregularities in our solar system that would be present if there were dark matter.

It could very well be invisible unicorns. They would still have mass and be undetectable, and therefore still be considered dark matter.
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:37 PM #5243
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
We don't know how gravity works, but we do know mass creates gravity. Thus, even though dark matter/energy doesn't itself interact with normal matter, the gravitational effects it creates does, and we can observe these effects on normal matter.

Mass is the only thing ever observed creating gravity, thus its a safe bet to assume that these gravitation affects observed are also cause by mass.

Dark matter does not emmit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, thus we cannot directly observe it, hence why it is "dark".

We know there is none in our solar system because there are no gravitational irregularities in our solar system that would be present if there were dark matter.

It could very well be invisible unicorns. They would still have mass and be undetectable, and therefore still be considered dark matter.
Mass may create gravity but we don't know that only mass creates gravity. Mass is not the only thing ever observed creating gravity, something invisible appears to be creating gravity, we can't just assume that additional invisible mass is creating that gravity. In every Galaxy and every solar system there are many forces at work, there are bodies in motion and most of them spinning and some have magnetic fields and some have a fusion reaction taking place. There are other forces that may interact in a way that we don't yet know about.

If dark matter does not emit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, then the military is going to want that stuff for stealth technology so if we can ever get our hands on any your never going to know about it anyway until quite a few years down the road.

Alan
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:26 PM #5244
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Came across an interesting article; Americans are turning away from organized religion in record numbers
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:48 PM #5245
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Well then you come over here and dump a big chunk of dark matter in front of me

...


If dark matter doesn't emit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, then the military is going to want that stuff for stealth technology
"I don't believe in neutrinos. You dump a big chunk of them in front of me, and I'll believe. If neutrinos do not emit or reflect light, radio waves, or any other form of radiation, then the military is going to want that stuff for stealth technology"
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:14 PM #5246
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Mass may create gravity but we don't know that only mass creates gravity. Mass is not the only thing ever observed creating gravity, something invisible appears to be creating gravity, we can't just assume that additional invisible mass is creating that gravity. In every Galaxy and every solar system there are many forces at work, there are bodies in motion and most of them spinning and some have magnetic fields and some have a fusion reaction taking place. There are other forces that may interact in a way that we don't yet know about.

If dark matter does not emit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, then the military is going to want that stuff for stealth technology so if we can ever get our hands on any your never going to know about it anyway until quite a few years down the road.

Alan
Mass is the only thing that creates true gravity, by bending space-time. Acceleration can create forces that are similar to and act like gravity, but they are not true gravity.

You realize that we're centuries away from being able to harvest dark matter right? So many other technologies would have to exist before we could even travel to where any is. Not to mention that it would take decades or centuries to even get to any dark matter.Then theres the matter that it doesn't interact with normal matter so even if we could find some we couldn't just scoop it into a jar and take it with us, least of all use it as a stealth coating. By the time we are able to get dark matter we won't even need it to be stealthy.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:35 PM #5247
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Mass may create gravity but we don't know that only mass creates gravity. Mass is not the only thing ever observed creating gravity, something invisible appears to be creating gravity, we can't just assume that additional invisible mass is creating that gravity. In every Galaxy and every solar system there are many forces at work, there are bodies in motion and most of them spinning and some have magnetic fields and some have a fusion reaction taking place. There are other forces that may interact in a way that we don't yet know about.


If dark matter does not emit or reflect light, radiowaves, or any other form of radiation, then the military is going to want that stuff for stealth technology so if we can ever get our hands on any your never going to know about it anyway until quite a few years down the road.

Alan


LOL

Sounds like the guy who covered his face with lemon juice because he heard it was used as invisible ink, and thought that covering his face with it would make his face invisible.



If you try to hide behind something invisible, we can still see you.

If you can't interact with normal matter, the military would have a hard time using something MADE OF IT TO INTERACT WITH NORMAL MATTER.

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Old 03-05-2015, 12:06 AM #5248
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Mass is the only thing that creates true gravity, by bending space-time. Acceleration can create forces that are similar to and act like gravity, but they are not true gravity.

How do you know mass is the only thing that creates gravity and that it does so by bending space-time? You said earlier that we don't know how gravity works, now you claim you do know how it works!

You realize that we're centuries away from being able to harvest dark matter right? So many other technologies would have to exist before we could even travel to where any is. Not to mention that it would take decades or centuries to even get to any dark matter.Then theres the matter that it doesn't interact with normal matter so even if we could find some we couldn't just scoop it into a jar and take it with us, least of all use it as a stealth coating. By the time we are able to get dark matter we won't even need it to be stealthy.
Your getting ahead of things there. First we need to prove it even exists and then find out what it is.

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LOL

Sounds like the guy who covered his face with lemon juice because he heard it was used as invisible ink, and thought that covering his face with it would make his face invisible.



If you try to hide behind something invisible, we can still see you.

If you can't interact with normal matter, the military would have a hard time using something MADE OF IT TO INTERACT WITH NORMAL MATTER.

It is you who are hiding behind something invisible, 80% of the universe made of something we can't find, and can't detect except that something we can't see appears to have gravity? Do you really believe this? Now if anything requires faith, that certainly does. I think it far more likely that there is some error in current theories.

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