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Old 03-03-2015, 05:05 PM #5217
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Headed down this path you're leading yourself to "Denying the antecedent".
"It's okay I believe people can live to 800 years. It's supernatural, so it is outside science. Therefore I do not deny science"

"It's okay I believe several million species could travel from all areas of the globe to live together in harmony on a single boat together for months, then migrate back to their respective habitats without leaving fossils. Nevermind all plant life was wiped out. It was supernatural, so it's outside science. Therefore I do not deny science."

If that's not what you're saying, please clarify.


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Old 03-03-2015, 05:36 PM #5218
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
A skeptic can always doubt anything they want to doubt, even with evidence in their face. I have seen it over and over again, I didn't intend to use that statement as a cop out, just an observation. A person who is adapt at arguing any subject can also win it, even if they are wrong, I've seen that numerous times too. I don't have the stamina, perhaps more like desire, to argue points much, but every now and then I say something. I see many like to debate one another though
I see the issue.

What I consider to be valid, compelling evidence, and what you consider to be valid compelling evidence, differ.

To argue that you observed instances where you were convinced of something, but that your evidence was not accepted by another, as evidence of their unwillingness to accept it, not as evidence that was inadequate, is yet another type of bias.



A magic trick for example, that a party tells me is evidence of demonic activity....and they show a video of the trick. Its evidence "right in my face" that what they saw was only possible if demons were involved.

So, yes, the evidence WAS right in my face, and, yes, I did not accept it.

So, do you believe I was wrong in not accepting that evidence, even though it WAS right in front of my face?

Or, do you think its possible that what THEY considered conclusive evidence, was simply inadequate to convince me?



How about a graph showing that during a study, the amount of meditation and the amount of world peace were in correlation, so that the more meditation there was, the more peace there was, with the premise being that it proved that meditation clearly improved world peace?

It was right in my face, I could see it quite plainly.

I simply evaluated the data, determined that it was a poorly designed study, in that there were no controls, and, no causal links.

IE: The study could have plotted the sale of peanut butter against that same increase in peace, during the same calendar period, and found that eating the same amount of peanut butter increased world peace, and so forth.

So, again, an example of evidence "right in my face", that I did not accept as proof of the premise.


So, sure, a knife found at the scene of a murder might be evidence...but, if the scene involved a shooting in a kitchen, and the knife was in a knife block in that kitchen...it does not PROVE that the knife was involved with the murder.

So, something can be true, yet, not be compelling evidence of something else.


I did not reject the arguments because I am simply a mean old crabby skeptic. I rejected the arguments because they were not capable of making the leap to prove the claimed premise.


They did not meet a burden of proof that would be proportional to the claims.


If we meet up to go fishing, and you say you know a good fishing hole...I would probably take your word for it, as its perfectly reasonable to believe you DO know a good fishing spot.. If we get there, and its an apartment building, and there's no water....OK, now you have some explaining to do.

If you said, no, wait, there's a lake under the building, we have to go in...fine, I might be a bit leery, but, again, its at least possible.

If we go into the building, down to the basement, and, its just dry concrete...again, you'd have some explaining to do.

If you said, no, wait, there's a hole in the concrete over there at the sump pump pit...and the fish are all under there, its like ice fishing on concrete, again, I'd be leery, but its at least possible.

If I look at the pit, and its bone dry, and, the bottom is right there....again, you'd have some explaining to do.

If you then said, oh, that's just a cover to keep other's from finding the hole...at this point, I'm STILL on board with it being possible...

And you then pantomime removing a cover, and plop your fishing lure onto the dry concrete, and look like you expect to catch a fish...once again, you'd have some explaining to do.

If you then said, no, really, that lure in in some really nice deep water, and, there's a ton of fish here...I catch them all the time...I would, at that point....assume you'd have been A) Pulling my leg the entire time, and/or B) Insane.

I would NOT assume that the lure laying on the dry concrete was really in water with fish.

I would NOT accept your explanation that they just weren't biting that day as to why no fish were caught.

Your explanation would, at that point, need to be air-tight. The burden of proof would need to be proportional to the premise.


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Old 03-03-2015, 05:53 PM #5219
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What I consider to be valid, compelling evidence, and what you consider to be valid compelling evidence, differ.
I guess that goes both ways, thus the differences between what is accepted or not. I am a skeptic about so many things myself, probably some which are actually true too.
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Old 03-03-2015, 06:11 PM #5220
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I guess that goes both ways, thus the differences between what is accepted or not. I am a skeptic about so many things myself, probably some which are actually true too.
I think YOU posted the meditation graph, so, YOU believed it to be compelling evidence.

Your requirements to be compelling are not that stringent, so you will be more likely to believe unwarranted premises...if that example is representative of your process. If its not, then, its merely an apparent coincidence. IE: There was evidence, right in my face, but, given the small sample size, I would not call it PROOF of your lack of stringency.






It is possible of course to be right, at least sometimes, as you are an intelligent person, and, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses..and, ALL people tend to give more credence to potential evidence that supports their world view.

Its human nature. So, most people I know, if there's a consistent pattern to their mistakes in logic or burden of proof requirements, tend to err in favor of beliefs that support their world views, and, over-reject evidence that conflicts with their world views.

Me too, its just how we're hard wired.


I just happen to be the kind of person who does re-examine things after my initial impression, and, I will occasionally find that something has merit that my initial gut reaction had rejected.

I will also find things that my gut reaction had accepted to be less valid than initially believed, and, reject them, etc.

That way, I am cognizant of my human nature, and the flaws I will be prone to, and, compensate, by playing devil's advocate against myself.

That way, after I've had a chance to wrestle with a new point of view or fact, and can better internalize it, and, use it to help me fine tune my own beliefs.


Global Climate Change would be an example that evolved from me initially thinking it was simply part of the ice ages and historical temperature cycles the planet has always been through...to seeing compelling evidence that man can influence the environment, and, the weather, etc, over time.

I was initially wrong, but, with additional evidence, which was compelling enough to change my mind, I changed my view of that topic.

I challenge myself and my own beliefs so that I feel that I know at least what I BASE my beliefs on.

If I later find that a foundation for a belief was invalid, or flawed, I always then look at EVERYTHING that rested on that foundation.

Its just my nature.




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Old 03-03-2015, 07:51 PM #5221
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
"It's okay I believe people can live to 800 years. It's supernatural, so it is outside science. Therefore I do not deny science"

"It's okay I believe several million species could travel from all areas of the globe to live together in harmony on a single boat together for months, then migrate back to their respective habitats without leaving fossils. Nevermind all plant life was wiped out. It was supernatural, so it's outside science. Therefore I do not deny science."

If that's not what you're saying, please clarify.
To clarify...

I do not believe Genesis was written as a historical or scientific text.

Quote:
"If readers recognize, for example, that creation accounts are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be, but rather theological texts that explain the world as it is, then readers avoid misinterpreting the text and forcing it to say things it does not convey."
But I can still fill in the blanks of your statement with what I do believe and answer your question.

Quote:
"It's okay I believe Jesus Christ performed miracles and rose from the dead. It's supernatural, so it is outside science. Therefore I do not deny science"
Supernatural things are events that appear to happen outside of the laws of nature as we understand them. Neither of us understand the technical nature of how these miracles happened, but your rejection of them based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make them invalid or discredit their possibility just as my belief in them doesn't force me to reject what we do understand about nature.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:39 PM #5222
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Supernatural things are events that appear to happen outside of the laws of nature as we understand them. Neither of us understand the technical nature of how these miracles happened, but your rejection of them based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make them invalid or discredit their possibility just as my belief in them doesn't force me to reject what we do understand about nature.
1. if, and how.

2. That just doesn't make sense.

Common sense: 2 + 2 = 4

Religion: 2 + 4 = 42.

It's not supernatural though, we just don't have the understanding of how 42 is achieved. Would that be a fair interpretation?

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Old 03-03-2015, 10:04 PM #5223
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I do not believe Genesis was written as a historical or scientific text.
Ah, I see. You're saying it's not the bible's fault for being bat-shit crazy, it's the fault of the people who are bat-shit crazy enough to believe it

Quote:
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your rejection of them based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make them invalid or discredit their possibility... my belief in them doesn't force me to reject what we do understand about nature.
On the contrary.

"I read in a book there are a group of teens that can shape-shift into any animal they come in contact with. your rejection of that claim based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make it invalid or discredit its possibility."

"I read in a book there is a god living on the top of a mountain that summons lightning with the help of a blacksmith named Hephaestus. Your rejection of this idea based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make it invalid or discredit its possibility. My belief in this doesn't force me to reject what we do know about nature."
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Old 03-04-2015, 12:29 AM #5224
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
.....

Supernatural things are events that appear to happen outside of the laws of nature as we understand them.

Neither of us understand the technical nature of how these miracles happened, but your rejection of them based on your current understanding of nature doesn't make them invalid or discredit their possibility just as my belief in them doesn't force me to reject what we do understand about nature.
If I am reading this correctly, your premise is:

Neither of us understand the technical nature of how these things you call miracles happened.

Not knowing how they happened and attributing them to natural, or supernatural forces, is equally valid.

And, supernatural things are events that appear to happen outside the laws of nature, as we understand them.



I will rephrase this to match my version of reality:



Superstitious people refer to things that they don't understand as "super natural".

Non-superstitious people refer to things that they don't understand as "things they don't understand".


You feel that if there are events that you don't understand, it is just as valid, logically, to assume that they are due to supernatural forces, as it is to assume that they are due to as of yet unexplained natural forces.

So, if an event appears to be without a technical explanation, you might call it a miracle...or supernatural event.

If I see an event without a technical explanation, I might call it an event without a technical explanation.


I think the difference would be, for us, the choice of how to classify an unexplained phenomenon.


You tend to be biased towards assumptions of supernatural causes, and I tend to be biased towards assumptions of natural causes.


As, historically, the natural causes have been progressively replacing all of the events PREVIOUSLY attributed to supernatural forces, as explanations are finally discovered for previously unexplained events...

...I feel justified in feeling that that process is the most likely scenario....and to skip the use of the supernatural forces as a placeholder, potentially saving time and misconceptions, etc.


You seem to feel that we should continue to assume that supernatural forces should CONTINUE to be used as place holders until science proves the real reasons...as has been done historically.



Does this sound about right?


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Old 03-04-2015, 12:44 AM #5225
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think YOU posted the meditation graph, so, YOU believed it to be compelling evidence.
Truth is, I haven't changed my position. I've been practicing TM myself and have looked into this far deeper than this one video. I just didn't want to get into a deep debate.
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Old 03-04-2015, 12:59 AM #5226
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Truth is, I haven't changed my position. I've been practicing TM myself and have looked into this far deeper than this one video. I just didn't want to get into a deep debate.
So, you then, accept things with far lower burdens of proof than I do...and, prefer not to defend premises you make, based upon the questionable data.

OK.

Gotcha. Nothing says you can't make statements that seem implausible, and then choose to not defend them.

Its a fairly popular position worldwide actually. Its the people who choose to PHYSICALLY defend implausible BELIEFS that cause far more problems.

Not defending the implausible beliefs as a choice is quite a bit less bothersome.



I would have preferred a debate about it though, personally, as at least we do know that brain waves are electricity, and, we also know an electric eel, ray, etc, have evolved the ability to project their electricity from nerves/muscles out into their environment.

So, theoretically at least, I would not say its IMPOSSIBLE to project brain waves outside of the body. After that, its a question as to how they can be emitted so as to initiate forces on exterior objects, etc.

So, its not magic unicorns per se, merely implausible...but potentially within the bounds of science.

The most interesting conversations are about just HOW implausible something might really be, and, I never know what I might learn in the process.


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Old 03-04-2015, 01:06 AM #5227
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You judge me from a point of not knowing what I have or have not investigated or to what depth, i suppose that is OK, after all, I did ask others what they thought of that and didn't indicate my involvement or depth of knowledge on the subject.
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Old 03-04-2015, 01:19 AM #5228
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We don't understand what dark energy is. Must be supernatural. Its not possible that there are things in our universe that we just aren't advanced enough to explain yet.
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Old 03-04-2015, 01:23 AM #5229
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
You judge me from a point of not knowing what I have or have not investigated or to what depth, i suppose that is OK, after all, I did ask others what they thought of that and didn't indicate my involvement or depth of knowledge on the subject.
Well, I DID give you the opportunity to clarify if that one example was representative of your level of proof, and, you implied that it was.

That indicated that you have a strong confirmation bias, and do not look too critically at data that is not in conflict with what you feel to be true.

Essentially, the graph for example plotted two things, and showed that an increase in one aligned with an increase in the other, over the same time span.

IE: More meditation on peace, and more peace, aligned.

The CONCLUSION was that, therefore, the meditation had CLEARLY increased the amount of peace.


I was in research for a long time, and, to me, that's not a valid study, as there was no control, and no way to connect the events.

IE: For a given time period, if you plotted that exact same increase in peace, wouldn't ANYTHING you plotted it against ALSO show the same impact?

Lets say the DATA showed that in that month, there was an increase in peace.

Lets say we then looked at the mediation DATA, and it showed an increase in Meditation to bring about peace, in that same month.

Let's say we also collected DATA regarding the number of times I farted that month, and, the number of times I considered taking up tennis again.

If the DATA indicated that I farted more that month, that would mean, based upon the same logic, that the more I fart, the more world peace there would be.

People would be sending me barrels of pork and beans, etc.


I also considered taking up tennis more that month....and, I guess that means that considering taking up tennis increases peace as well.

Obviously, I should meditate about world peace while considering taking up tennis as I eat my beans and fart our way to world peace.


See what I mean?

The study was bogus.


It doesn't mean ANYTHING.


A STUDY being fatally flawed of course DOESN'T mean that its conclusion was wrong, or right...just that you can't DRAW a conclusion.

If you had a more compelling study, one that was NOT fatally flawed, THAT would be a better example, if you wanted to demonstrate your more stringent side.




Otherwise, its along the lines of popping into the room, saying, by the way, there are invisible unicorns!

And we say really? and you say "Oh, yeah, definitely, I did a ton of research on it, but I don't feel like explaining"


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Old 03-04-2015, 01:54 AM #5230
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yes, you did. Let me think on how to respond to it and get back with you later when I'm ready, this kind of discussion isn't something I enter into lightly but at the same time, I doubt I can convince you of anything and it would be a waste of time. I cannot prove anything to anyone, I can offer information and you can either accept it as plausible or reject it as bunk, all depending upon many factors within your own world view. Does it really matter what you think, to me? Not really, I only shared the information for those who might enjoy it, those who reject it are fine as they are, we all travel our own paths according to our own needs, I'm not out to change anyone but it is nice to find brothers or birds of a feather, so to speak. If I come off in the text here as having an attitude, please forgive me, I don't mean to do so. However, let me say this, you clearly have an aptitude for quickly judging with little information. I have written so little and yet you have jumped to such lengths to place me in one of your little boxes, categorized, labeled and put in the back side of the closet of your mind as finished, less I open myself up to a debate, perhaps a long one. I can do that, and will get back with you later.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 03-04-2015, 02:51 AM #5231
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Yes, you did. Let me think on how to respond to it and get back with you later when I'm ready, this kind of discussion isn't something I enter into lightly but at the same time, I doubt I can convince you of anything and it would be a waste of time. I cannot prove anything to anyone, I can offer information and you can either accept it as plausible or reject it as bunk, all depending upon many factors within your own world view. Does it really matter what you think, to me? Not really, I only shared the information for those who might enjoy it, those who reject it are fine as they are, we all travel our own paths according to our own needs, I'm not out to change anyone but it is nice to find brothers or birds of a feather, so to speak. If I come off in the text here as having an attitude, please forgive me, I don't mean to do so. However, let me say this, you clearly have an aptitude for quickly judging with little information. I have written so little and yet you have jumped to such lengths to place me in one of your little boxes, categorized, labeled and put in the back side of the closet of your mind as finished, less I open myself up to a debate, perhaps a long one. I can do that, and will get back with you later.
I hear you.

I agree that the sample set was short, and, if the power had not gone down as I was editing, that would have been better fleshed out, so, sorry about that.

I appreciate your efforts to explain your position better, as I said, when something IS at least potentially possible I am EXTREMELY interested in hearing new info.

I am willing to wait, and, WILL have an open mind. I will not be forgiving of flawed studies though, so only use evidence that at least is dependable/defensible.

I know meditation works, and, a lot about how, brain wave control, etc....

....its the part about how to channel it to exert changes exterior to the body that needs exploration. I am waiting on evidence that progress is possible.


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Old 03-04-2015, 04:46 AM #5232
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I read this forum frequently and I now have a dumb question....
Dark Matter --- we believe it makes up about 80% of our universe.
1. We think it is there from observations but we can't prove it even with
our best machines.
2. We think it is causing the known universe to expand to somewhere.
3. In the expansion, galaxies collide perhaps causing death to unknown organisms.
4. It appears to surround us on all sides and maybe within our existence.
5. Its composition is unknown.

Could this be a new religion? Science believes it is there but we can't prove it
but we have faith that we will discover it someday.

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