Old 03-02-2015, 11:27 PM #5201
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Do you blame every evil act on whatever religion that person follows?
If a devout christian burns down an orphanage because he hates orphans, then him being christian is irrelevant to the crime.

If a devout christian burns down an orphanage because "God told him too" or because he thinks orphans are an affront to God, then him being christian is relevant to the crime.

If an atheist beats up a man for wearing socks with sandals, him being an atheist is irrelevant to the crime.

If an atheist beats up a man for being (insert religion here), him being an atheist is relevant to the crime.


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Old 03-02-2015, 11:31 PM #5202
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Belief in the supernatural doesn't also require the rejection of the natural.
Maybe with your special mental gymnastics, but you'll have a tough time getting around that with the examples I gave. If you believe people lived to 800 years, you have to reject what science knows about human lifespans. If you believe in the noah flood, you have to reject a lot more science.

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Those "mistakes" are not "because of" the bible.
I'll never understand why you think saying the opposite of what I do is an adequate counterargument. It's just annoying. It reminds me of a child shaking their head while covering their ears and yelling "nuh-uh! nuh-uh! nuh-uh!"

If you honestly don't believe young-earth creationists believe what they do because of the bible, maybe you can start by telling us why YOU think they believe that.
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:12 AM #5203
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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I thought atheism wasn't a religion, are you now saying it is?



No hookah smoking frogs, it was a hookah smoking caterpillar, go ask Alice I think she'll know.

I am not from Mars, the hookah smoking caterpillar said so.

Alan


I like that.


On the religion/atheism, no, I'm pointing out the same example made many posts earlier, of listing people in 2 overlapping groups as if that overlap was supposed to be meaningful.

IE: I am saying that just because a Christian man murdered his wife, that doesn't mean Christians are murderers, or that the murder was due to Christianity....

...and that analogously, if a man who was an atheist were to commit a crime, it doesn't mean the crime implicates other atheists, or that the crime was due to atheism.


Atheism is simply not believing that there's that frog, or god, or magic fairies, etc.

If that's a religion, so is NOT believing any OTHER examples you could think of...

...Such as what religion is it where you DON'T believe that there are invisible frogs on the ceiling smoking Hookahs?

Its YOUR religion, as you believe they are caterpillars, not frogs...so, what religion are you?


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Old 03-03-2015, 01:38 AM #5204
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Maybe with your special mental gymnastics, but you'll have a tough time getting around that with the examples I gave. If you believe people lived to 800 years, you have to reject what science knows about human lifespans. If you believe in the noah flood, you have to reject a lot more science.
No science has to be rejected to believe supernatural events occurred, as it is credited to the supernatural and thought of as outside of natural laws or at least current understanding, leaving belief in natural laws unrejected. No mental gymnastics required.
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Old 03-03-2015, 01:53 AM #5205
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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@Teej-Just wondering, do you believe in an ultimate truth?
Could you tell me the difference between truth, and an ultimate truth?
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:07 AM #5206
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Thanks Alan,

While I've never studied Buddhism other than read a couple of books which included superficial information about the religion, and a couple of Buddish (LOL) movies, I see no difference in what they teach and how I think too, except for a long time I disagreed with the statement Buddha made that "there is no soul". Although, after pondering upon that off and on (of course) for over a decade, it finally came to me, there are no individual souls, none... only the appearance of such and in time, only unity. Another way of looking at it is that we are all the same life living in parallel throughout all of time in every place in the universe we can exist, billions upon billions of selves experiencing all of the diversity possible right on down to the single-celled creatures, if they have any kind of dim sentience, I would think we are there too.

I realize some members are wired completely backwards to this kind of thinking and see it as complete bunk, that's OK too, it's part of the diversity.

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Alaskan, you should look into Buddhism, it too can lead you down the right path to the answers you're looking for. I was involved in Buddhism for about 2 years back in my mid twenties. Not original Buddhism but Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism. They are to Buddhism perhaps similar to what LDS and JW are to Christianity. It is unfortunate that the law of cause and effect/karma are not a teaching of all religions.

I know this will be difficult to understand but many of the members were atheists, and yet they believed in the law of cause and effect, they believed it to be a natural force built into the universe, they also believed in reincarnation, including the atheists. They also chanted Nam-myōhō-renge-kyō, they believed that the will of many can influence reality, a group of people together in the same place concentrating on the same thing can have a real physical effect. This is somewhat similar to Christian prayer except your not praying to God. There were some known cases of what Christians would call miracles, but what they considered the result of a natural force built into the universe, and again even the atheists believed this.

Alan
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:11 AM #5207
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
No science has to be rejected to believe supernatural events occurred, as it is credited to the supernatural and thought of as outside of natural laws or at least current understanding, leaving belief in natural laws unrejected. No mental gymnastics required.
I agree..if we are speaking theoretically, and, don't need to be correct per se (IE: Its not logically flawed, in of itself, albeit the conclusion may not derive from the statement).

IE: If science explains stuff, and super natural explains stuff, you can theoretically have both explanation paradigms in your repertoire...but, be wrong.



Science is not necessarily the belief that all things have natural explanations though.

Science has traditionally been open to the supernatural, and, in fact, its origins are strongly rooted in it.

Before the real reasons were discovered for countless events, the supernatural explanations were quite popular.

There are cash prizes, one for a million dollars alone for example, for ANYONE who can demonstrate ANY supernatural power, under controlled conditions.

Some illusionists, etc, COULD fool some scientists who were unfamiliar with "tricks"...but when the scientists know what conditions to control, so the experiments could be honest, NO ONE has EVER been able to do magic, bend spoons, levitate things, read minds, faith heal, etc.

So, that IS science, conducting experiments to see what is actually happening, IE: THE TRUTH.

Scientific investigation is also performed relative to the supernatural. This is how radio interceptors picked up the wireless mic signals the faith healer's and/or medium's assistants used to to tell him about the audience member, etc.

This is how they were able to duplicate Uri Geller's tricks, and so forth.

Science is not about debunking potential explanations.

Science is about finding the TRUTH.


So far, what science has found, is that ALL supernatural "acts" you see on TV, such as faith healing, communicating with the dead, psychics, telekinesis, and so forth, are not supernatural...they are in fact TRICKS. More accurately, they are scams.

A faith healer who has a national TV audience send him millions of dollars because of his "miracles" is fleecing them, by PRETENDING to be a faith healer...and its not that he's deluded, they have a STAFF who assist with the shearing.




So, science is the search for the truth. It is not "the truth" and, it is not a denial of the supernatural.

Is has so far though, shown supernatural claims to all be lies and deception...with no one, ever, coming forth to prove otherwise.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:15 AM #5208
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Thanks Alan,

While I've never studied Buddhism other than read a couple of books which included superficial information about the religion, and a couple of Buddish (LOL) movies, I see no difference in what they teach and how I think too, except for a long time I disagreed with the statement Buddha made that "there is no soul". Although, after pondering upon that off and on (of course) for over a decade, it finally came to me, there are no individual souls, none... only the appearance of such and in time, only unity.
So, we don't have souls, but these souls we don't have unite at some point?



They believe that there is sort of one soul of all mankind, as opposed to reincarnation per se...and the entities are simply in various states as time passes. Much as they view thought itself.

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Old 03-03-2015, 02:24 AM #5209
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
There are cash prizes, one for a million dollars alone for example, for ANYONE who can demonstrate ANY supernatural power, under controlled conditions.

Some illusionists, etc, COULD fool some scientists who were unfamiliar with "tricks"...but when the scientists know what conditions to control, so the experiments could be honest, NO ONE has EVER been able to do magic, bend spoons, levitate things, read minds, faith heal, etc.
Not true, there have been numerous offers to prove it and the nay sayers always find a way to wiggle out of the challenge. Check with Victor Zammit, he's a lawyer in Australia, you can find him on Facebook. There have been numerous offerings to that challenge but the people who claim to pay if you can prove it always back out on the real challenges. Victor has the full story on this, if you want to run it down.

I've seen something which could not happen myself, impossible, but right before my eyes it did happen, but to offer the story to someone who would doubt it makes no sense at all. If you want to doubt something, you will always find a way.

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So, we don't have souls, but these souls we don't have unite at some point?



They believe that there is sort of one soul of all mankind, as opposed to reincarnation per se...and the entities are simply in various states as time passes. Much as they view thought itself.
I'm not a Buddhist, but so far, I don't disagree with anything I've seen come from them, just that one point didn't make sense to me for many years until I understood, we are all cut from the same fabric, in essence, the same life. Are you as the whole body any different than any cell in your body, in essence? The DNA in each cell contains a complete map of the whole body, just that different cells are taking on different rolls. That's probably not a good example, but the only one which I can think of at the moment.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:54 AM #5210
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

That's sort of a biased source though...

Why not send all those "cheated" to say, James Randi's foundation, and they get a million $, US.




I mean, if for example, a guy who says he can bend spoons, seems to only be able to bend spoons he supplied, I don't count him as telekinetic, even if he feels cheated. The scientists being fooled is nothing new...but, there are controlled studies....as opposed to essentially biased studies with foregone conclusions...or honest but poorly controlled studies.

To say that a skeptic can always doubt something is a cop out...there still needs to be solid evidence for claims that would be as earth shattering as the implications would be. VERIFIABLE PROOF of the supernatural has never occurred, merely observations that were misinterpreted...or, potentially completely and totally accurate, but, without any verifiable evidence/proof.

I too have seen things which seemed unexplainable...and, some went many years unexplained, and, then, I found explanations. Not knowing how something happened doesn't prove the cause was supernatural.

Heck, If I'd never heard of magnets, and some guy said he could make two pieces of metal attract each other one way, and repel each other the other way, and showed me one making the other float in mid air, I'd be in AWE of that.

If I didn't know about static electricity, and I saw a guy make a spark leap from his fingers and shock me, I'd be amazed at his powers, and so forth.

Just because I didn't know an explanation for apparent supernatural events, didn't make them supernatural, merely unexplained. I don't need to plug in "supernatural", when I don't have an explanation. I can HAVE an unfilled gap in knowledge w/o needing a supernatural placeholder.

This is a good thing, because I could easily trade knowing EVERYTHING I KNOW for everything I DON'T know, and come out so far ahead, the ratio would be some astronomically enormous number.





I understand what you mean by the DNA, etc.

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Old 03-03-2015, 05:01 AM #5211
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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No science has to be rejected to believe supernatural events occurred, as it is credited to the supernatural and thought of as outside of natural laws or at least current understanding, leaving belief in natural laws unrejected. No mental gymnastics required.
"It's okay if I believe in homeopathy because water has supernatural powers. Water's supernatural powers are outside of natural laws, so I don't reject any science."

"It's okay if I believe in crystal healing. Crystals' supernatural powers are outside of science, so I don't reject any science."

"It's okay if I believe in magnet therapy. Magnets have some supernatural powers that are outside of science, so I don't reject any science."

These are reasonable statements to you?
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Old 03-03-2015, 01:45 PM #5212
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
"It's okay if I believe in homeopathy because water has supernatural powers. Water's supernatural powers are outside of natural laws, so I don't reject any science."

"It's okay if I believe in crystal healing. Crystals' supernatural powers are outside of science, so I don't reject any science."

"It's okay if I believe in magnet therapy. Magnets have some supernatural powers that are outside of science, so I don't reject any science."

These are reasonable statements to you?

Headed down this path you're leading yourself to "Denying the antecedent".
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:14 PM #5213
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Could you tell me the difference between truth, and an ultimate truth?
Well what I mean by ultimate truth, is like for example, there is a god and he is the absolute truth no matter what anyone else believes.
Like do you have something similar?
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:20 PM #5214
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Headed down this path you're leading yourself to "Denying the antecedent".
Logically, I don't believe that particular bias would apply in this context.


Denying the antecedent is more about a logical argument that loses the if-then format, and uses "not" instead, etc.


Examples might be along the lines of:

If I am a member of LPF, then I am human.

If I am not a member of LPF, then I am not human.



On the other hand:

"It's okay if I believe in homeopathy because water has supernatural powers. Water's supernatural powers are outside of natural laws, so I don't reject any science."

....Is not in this format.



Its context is simply using an analogous example to show why the ORIGINAL argument is not valid.

IE: "I am not denying science if I attribute the phenomenon to the supernatural", as a premise.


It is not the format the denial of antecedent would be in...and neither is the original premise.


If the original argument was in the format required, it would need to be more along the lines of:

If I DO understand how something works, then it is explained by natural forces.

Therefore, if I DON'T know how something works, then it is NOT explained by natural forces.


Instead, the original premise is essentially saying that a law is not violated if that law has no jurisdiction in that area, while also assuming that science doesn't recognize the possibility of unexplained forces. So, it can be true that a law has no jurisdiction in some areas, albeit natural laws could be questioned as applicable, it was a false premise that science did not consider unexplained forces, as, many many unexplained forces are exactly what science has, historically, been explaining, eventually.



IE: Believing in the supernatural doesn't require rejection of science....contrasted with examples of specific conflicts with that premise.

So, overall, a person can BELIEVE any combination they want to about what they believe they know, due to science, and what they know due to superstitions/the supernatural. It doesn't mean that ANY of what they believe they know is CORRECT though.

For example, a rather famous bank robber believed that, as lemon juice was used as "invisible ink", he could wipe it all over his face, and, the tellers and security cameras would be unable to identify him...and he robbed 2 banks using that scientifically derived ruse.

He believed that invisible ink made what it was on invisible.



On the flip side, there are examples of warriors told they were invincible due to a magic spell, and sent into battle knowing they could not be killed.

Last edited by Teej; 03-03-2015 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:56 PM #5215
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Well what I mean by ultimate truth, is like for example, there is a god and he is the absolute truth no matter what anyone else believes.
Like do you have something similar?
Similar to a person "being a truth?"

How can someone BE "A Truth"?



Can you give an example?
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:04 PM #5216
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A skeptic can always doubt anything they want to doubt, even with evidence in their face. I have seen it over and over again, I didn't intend to use that statement as a cop out, just an observation. A person who is adapt at arguing any subject can also win it, even if they are wrong, I've seen that numerous times too. I don't have the stamina, perhaps more like desire, to argue points much, but every now and then I say something. I see many like to debate one another though
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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