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Old 02-28-2015, 11:04 AM #5185
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
. An atheist stance is rejection, which requires belief, which also requires faith.
.
Duke, sorry to quote you from a few pages back but you have repeatedly made this incorrect assumption over and over and I can show you pretty easily why you are wrong. I did this before a couple months back but think you didn't enter the discussion till later. Here is the example to show why.

There is a jar of gumballs in a sealed jar. The only 2 possibilites is that the number of gum balls is even or odd. You tell me you believe the number of gumballs in the jar is even. I reject your assertion that the number is even because without counting them I know you can't KNOW this. Because i reject your claim that the number is even does NOT mean I think the number is ODD. If I did then yes that would also be an assertion on my part or a belief as you keep putting it. In evaluating the jar of gumballs without the ability to count them I hold no beliefs other than the number must be even or odd. I do not believe the number is even, I do not believe the number of gumballs is odd. I reject your claim but I am not making a counter assertion that is opposite of yours.

God either exist or he doesn't/ The number of gumballs is either odd or even

You claim that God exists/ you claim the number of gumballs is even

I reject your claim that a God exists/ I reject your claim that the number is even

This doesn't mean I assert or have faith that no Gods exists/ This doesn't mean I believe the number of gumballs is odd.

The atheist stance is only the rejection of the God claim, it makes no counter claim. Now yes there are some atheists that do claim that no gods exists but that is NOT what atheism is. A person that claims no God exists is an antitheist. That is there own belief and in that case yes they would have the burden of proof. Atheism only addresses the theist claim that God exists. It is a rejection of the claim it makes no claim of its own. A rejection of a belief does not by default mean a belief in the opposite.

Agnosticism addresses knowledge. The knowing of the question, is there a God? Most atheists, myself included, are often referred to as agnostic atheist. meaning I reject the theist claim because they have not met the burden of proof but I do not KNOW the opposite. A person that rejects the God claim and also asserts the opposite would be an antitheist atheist.

That is why you are wrong to assert that atheists position is a claim of knowledge or a belief. It is not. It is a rejection of the theist claim of a God. I cant explain it any easier than this.


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Old 02-28-2015, 05:28 PM #5186
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Why do we so often think it really matters what we believe in regard to the existence of God, or not? I don't think it matters what we believe one way or the other. What is, is. Do we really need to know? I guess I shouldn't ask that question... although religions will say certainly, and you also need to join our club or be left behind etc. I firmly believe all is well and working as it should regardless of the appearances.

I don't think God will end up being limited to what religions teach, when we get far enough to prove some of these things out, it will come back to ourselves and what we are all a part of, how the physics of reality work, how consciousness works and influences itself to know itself better, something outside of time but yet influencing everything in it. Just guessing, of course.... Hell, I don't know.
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:28 PM #5187
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess I'm antitheist then. I don't believe in anyones God(s). I like to make sure I'm fair that way.
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Old 02-28-2015, 06:17 PM #5188
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Why do we so often think it really matters what we believe in regard to the existence of God, or not? I don't think it matters what we believe one way or the other.
When you think about it its the biggest question one could ponder or ask. Its the difference between, we live in a natural mechanistic reality and cosmos, or we live in a reality and cosmos full of and began by literally magic and super nature. I think its a fascinating question and subject. One I have spent thousands of hours reading, writing, and discussing. Yes, I agree with your second part of the quote that regardless what we believe in or don't it is what it is but I personally get a lot of enjoyment talking and even debating the "Big Question" when its done with intelligent people. Not people like usabro. For me People like that kill the conversation at every turn with off the wall assertions and complete ill-logic. But when this topic is discussed or debated maturely and intelligently its helps both sides learn there position much stronger. The better the adversary, they better the challenge and personal growth.
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Old 02-28-2015, 08:57 PM #5189
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Why do we so often think it really matters what we believe in regard to the existence of God, or not? I don't think it matters what we believe one way or the other. What is, is. Do we really need to know? I guess I shouldn't ask that question... although religions will say certainly, and you also need to join our club or be left behind etc. I firmly believe all is well and working as it should regardless of the appearances.

I don't think God will end up being limited to what religions teach, when we get far enough to prove some of these things out, it will come back to ourselves and what we are all a part of, how the physics of reality work, how consciousness works and influences itself to know itself better, something outside of time but yet influencing everything in it. Just guessing, of course.... Hell, I don't know.

The reason it can matter what we believe, is because some people ACT on their beliefs.

If you believe that throwing your 12 year old daughter into the volcano is an honor for her and your family, and will protect the entire community from the volcano's anger, you may act differently than if you believed that the volcano was a vent for a magma chamber, and not a god.

If you believe that your belief is so important you would die for it, and that your belief system is so important that you feel you must kill all who do not share it, you may act differently than if no one had a belief system that COULD conflict with others in a violent manner, etc.

And so forth.



As to if we really "Need to Know"....that of course can only be in the context of WHAT is is we need to know.

If its whether or not there's a god...we need to know there's not, to avoid needless conflicts and deaths, etc.

As far as "judgement", I think it would be nice if we all just realized that bad guys are bad guys and good guys are good guys, regardless of what religion they are born to or claim to practice.

If there's no god, logically, its your fellow humans, and yourself, that are going to judge you.

If you think there IS a god, then YOU get to make up whatever fairy tale you want to about how he deals with you after you're dead.

Most go with whatever is the most COMFORTING, as that's the POINT of religion in the first place.

So, if you feel that leading a good life is all that matters...or, that worshiping cows or a particular god, or his progeny or pet, etc, is all that matters, then that's what YOU will believe.


You might be might be like Huck Finn helping a slave escape "even though I know I'll go to hell for it", because even though you were taught it was wrong, and even though it was illegal, and even though the church sermon preached it was wrong...somehow, you felt it was the right thing to do anyway...and you'd risk hell over it.

Humans may not agree on what is right, and what is wrong....consistently. Its a complicated concept. Its subjective, and some things seem straight forward, and others are blurred by current mores.

Killing is wrong, unless its in self defense, or, its your job, as in the army...

...except mafia members consider themselves to be in an army, so, its OK for them to kill....

..and some army men killed people who were later judged to be off limits, and, they are prosecuted for murder, etc.

A terrorist cell hides in a building in a town, and a drone takes out that building, and part of one next to it, killing an unrelated/innocent person.

Who killed the innocent person, and, are they guilty of murder?

Are the terrorists enemy soldiers, or, are they criminals?

If criminals, is it OK to kill them w/o a trial, etc?

Where is the line between making a bombs to kill people you hate or to draw attention to your cause, and being a terrorist, or, an enemy soldier?

Who is supposed to get a trial? Who can be killed outright?

And so forth.


So, what is right and what is wrong is a REALLY complicated concept in practice. Its not that there's no right, and no wrong, except what people feel...its that we have a hard time figuring it all out, and, come to different conclusions.


The "kill'm all and let god sort it out" concept is actually an ancient principle.

Its not really a nice way of doing things though. (IE: If the "witch" doesn't drown, she's a witch, and you burn her...and, if she does drown, she was innocent...and you don't have to burn her...)



So, sure, your beliefs matter. YOUR beliefs don't matter TO ME unless you then need to impose your beliefs, or collateral issues, UPON ME, or, upon others.

If you believe science is a religion, and, don't want it taught in schools, and I want my decedents to one day be able to leave earth and find a new home where the sun WON'T be about to incinerate them, etc...I do NOT want you influencing the educational process, and, you would be harming all mankind.

If you belief that we should all love each other and have pretty crystals and meditate on how to improve mankind...you're probably not harming all of mankind, and, potentially helping to drive the incense and crystal market, etc.





If we are a planet of superstitious natives who fear knowledge and burn scientists, things will be more likely to end badly for us as a species, than if we eventually become a planet of rational and capable thinkers.

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Old 02-28-2015, 09:19 PM #5190
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

http://i.imgur.com/9zKanm6.png

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Old 03-02-2015, 07:40 PM #5191
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
we do not have to show there is no god. it is the default position.
The default position is "I don't know"


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Noah flood, creation story, resurrections, 800 year lifespans, and similar bullshit is all telling you to ignore science.

Except those "mistakes of others" are because of the bible. So it does.
Belief in the supernatural doesn't also require the rejection of the natural.

Those "mistakes" are not "because of" the bible.
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:47 PM #5192
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Then what are the mistakes based on?

Define for me, what is the bible?

By extension what is christianity?
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:41 PM #5193
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Do you blame every evil act on whatever religion that person follows?
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:56 PM #5194
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Of course not. Though I do when it specifically the reason given for the crime taking place... whether it be the crusades, the inquisition, the quasi religious zeal of the holocaust, and stalin's purges, or the jihads. We've been over that time and again. Your argument is "these guys aren't true christians" therefore it does not reflect badly on christianity itself.

Fine. I'm willing to entertain that notion.

Which leaves me the question of what is christianity?

Which version is the correct one if I wanted to be a true christian? Based on which version of the bible?

Who's interpretation do I follow? Do I need to come up with my own? What if it's a different interpretation to what others have come up with? Is it still christianity, or christianity lite? Do I go into limbo instead of hell, or a worse version of heaven, or a better version of hell?

So... which is the correct bible? Can you tell me what the starting point is before we even get into the finer points?

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Old 03-02-2015, 09:05 PM #5195
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej, I was thinking more along the lines of what difference does it make if you believe in God or not, but limited to that alone, not the things people do because of their beliefs. I don't agree with the idea we must believe in God or we will not be a part of the special club who goes to heaven and be cast into the pits of hell if we don't. Even if there were a "God" (which I am not disputing) I don't believe such a God would be that cruel, I wouldn't call such a being, whether it created all of the universe or not, a "God". Not in the way I want to view God.... which of course, is another thing to debate too.
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Old 03-02-2015, 09:42 PM #5196
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Do you blame every evil act on whatever religion that person follows?
You mean like a list of people you thought were atheists and who also were famous for being evil?

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Old 03-02-2015, 09:51 PM #5197
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The default position is "I don't know"




Belief in the supernatural doesn't also require the rejection of the natural.

Those "mistakes" are not "because of" the bible.

I agree with you 100% that there is no large percentage of people who only believe in 100% supernatural phenomenon and zero % natural...and that -as you correctly surmised, belief in one or the other is not a true dichotomy...you can easily believe both exist w/o contradiction.



The default position only exists if there is a default question its in answer to.

Logically, there is no "default question".

IE: Is not believing there are invisible frogs hanging upside down from your ceiling smoking from invisible hookahs....and act of faith?


So we have BELIEVING in those frogs...as "Premise #1"

Is it really a "belief that the frogs are NOT there" that would be "Premise #2"?

Would not the default position be no answer at all, as, there would be no default question?

Its the same essential dichotomy you pointed out as invalid earlier.

A belief in the frogs doesn't preclude you from believing that you are human, or wearing a hat.

But which is a "belief" that requires "faith" in the normal sense of the word?


Is ONE OF YOUR RELIGIONS "NOT believing that you are from Mars"?

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Old 03-02-2015, 10:15 PM #5198
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You mean like a list of people you thought were atheists and who also were famous for being evil?

I thought atheism wasn't a religion, are you now saying it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I agree with you 100% that there is no large percentage of people who only believe in 100% supernatural phenomenon and zero % natural...and that -as you correctly surmised, belief in one or the other is not a true dichotomy...you can easily believe both exist w/o contradiction.



The default position only exists if there is a default question its in answer to.

Logically, there is no "default question".

IE: Is not believing there are invisible frogs hanging upside down from your ceiling smoking from invisible hookahs....and act of faith?


So we have BELIEVING in those frogs...as "Premise #1"

Is it really a "belief that the frogs are NOT there" that would be "Premise #2"?

Would not the default position be no answer at all, as, there would be no default question?

Its the same essential dichotomy you pointed out as invalid earlier.

A belief in the frogs doesn't preclude you from believing that you are human, or wearing a hat.

But which is a "belief" that requires "faith" in the normal sense of the word?


Is ONE OF YOUR RELIGIONS "NOT believing that you are from Mars"?

No hookah smoking frogs, it was a hookah smoking caterpillar, go ask Alice I think she'll know.

I am not from Mars, the hookah smoking caterpillar said so.

Alan
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:21 PM #5199
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@Teej-Just wondering, do you believe in an ultimate truth?
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:01 PM #5200
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Teej, I was thinking more along the lines of what difference does it make if you believe in God or not, but limited to that alone, not the things people do because of their beliefs. I don't agree with the idea we must believe in God or we will not be a part of the special club who goes to heaven and be cast into the pits of hell if we don't. Even if there were a "God" (which I am not disputing) I don't believe such a God would be that cruel, I wouldn't call such a being, whether it created all of the universe or not, a "God". Not in the way I want to view God.... which of course, is another thing to debate too.
Alaskan, you should look into Buddhism, it too can lead you down the right path to the answers you're looking for. I was involved in Buddhism for about 2 years back in my mid twenties. Not original Buddhism but Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism. They are to Buddhism perhaps similar to what LDS and JW are to Christianity. It is unfortunate that the law of cause and effect/karma are not a teaching of all religions.

I know this will be difficult to understand but many of the members were atheists, and yet they believed in the law of cause and effect, they believed it to be a natural force built into the universe, they also believed in reincarnation, including the atheists. They also chanted Nam-myōhō-renge-kyō, they believed that the will of many can influence reality, a group of people together in the same place concentrating on the same thing can have a real physical effect. This is somewhat similar to Christian prayer except your not praying to God. There were some known cases of what Christians would call miracles, but what they considered the result of a natural force built into the universe, and again even the atheists believed this.

Alan
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