Old 02-27-2015, 03:00 PM #5169
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Please check the first few pages of this thread. It's full of pictures, gifs, videos, etc,.

Personally I end up browsing in desktop mode even from my phone, and don't have issues, except that I also disable viewing gifs.

The pictures add a bit of humor to what is otherwise a very contentious topic... I fully welcome any about atheists


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Old 02-27-2015, 03:08 PM #5170
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

People tend not to read a 324 page long thread from the beginning, and usually jump to the last page.

Anyway .. cdn.niketalk.com/4/44/44ae2003_bth_threadderailedsu2.gif
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Old 02-27-2015, 03:32 PM #5171
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ped View Post
People tend not to read a 324 page long thread from the beginning, and usually jump to the last page.

Anyway .. cdn.niketalk.com/4/44/44ae2003_bth_threadderailedsu2.gif
Lazy people

But ok.

Religion = bad. Empathetic reciprocity = good.

http://i.imgur.com/KQUdAlY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wGxpiEH.jpg?1

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Old 02-27-2015, 03:59 PM #5172
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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They're the same thing. Intelligent design IS creationism.
Yes you are right you can't believe in Intelligent design without creationism. Even if it is a god guided evolution it's still creationism.
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:01 PM #5173
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Religion = bad. Empathetic reciprocity = good.
I don't think religion is bad, it does have some benefits.

Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, ect. are just giant book clubs.

Some people like the book so much they try to be like their favorite character, Jesus. Those people know that the bible is just a book and they don't let it get in the way of other people's lives. There's nothing wrong with that IMO. Religion has shown to help people live happier lives, form stronger communities and cope better with loss. These people are fine because they are living their life without affecting other peoples negatively.

The problem comes from the big fans of the book. Those people believe everything written in a book, to the point where they ignore established facts. When someone lets a fiction written in a book be the basis of what they believe, then that is the problem. The reason I have problem with these people is that they affect the rest of us when they get into politics.


Some Christians have called Scientologists crazy for believing in fictional writings. The only difference is that one is more recent.

To an outsider, Christianity looks just as silly as Scientology.
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:08 PM #5174
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

one of my supervisors was an usher of his local church, and told me he did not believe the bible, and was for all intents and purposes an atheist. he said basically he went for the sense of community and whatnot. So I asked him why we couldnt have another reason to get together for potlucks and such that doesnt involve telling little kids they will burn for eternity in hell if they don't believe. I'm all for the positive functions, but cant we experience and base them on something better?
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:44 PM #5175
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ARG View Post
I don't think religion is bad, it does have some benefits.
I agree with you that religion has benefits, but I do believe on balance, and in the long run it causes far more harm then good, in the context of a modern society.

Were we in the same stage in our understanding of the world, and intellectually as people were 5000 years ago, I would probably even be a devout follower of a religion, and believe it to be wholly good... the basic structure judaism offered for example, guided people in a for the most part benign way to better lives... forcing rest on sabbath, not planting the same field over and over again, constant washing of hands, circumcision to reduce infection, honor for elders, help to the community, etc,. All these things in a primitive society were good.

Of course with that was also the stoning, the caning, the slavery, and other brutalities. Even so, on balance, where society was, religion was a good thing.

Now though, the context has changed. We understand that lighting is not from god being mad, or why washing hands is important. That it has nothing to do with being clean before god, but rather to prevent the spread of bacteria.

Now... religion holds society back, and does more harm, on balance, than it does good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
one of my supervisors was an usher of his local church, and told me he did not believe the bible, and was for all intents and purposes an atheist. he said basically he went for the sense of community and whatnot. So I asked him why we couldnt have another reason to get together for potlucks and such that doesnt involve telling little kids they will burn for eternity in hell if they don't believe. I'm all for the positive functions, but cant we experience and base them on something better?
I can completely relate to that man... I've volunteered at a synagogue before, and have attended many holidays, and ceremonies. I still go on rare occasions when invited, though my views on religion are well known. I too agree that it would be great to meet over something else, but unfortunately to many people religion is literally what they life revolves around... go to yeshiva, go to college, get job, get wife, have lots of kids. Do lots of mitzvot along the way, etc,.

Some of these people are truly wonderful in their dedication to do good, and would literally give the shirt of their back to you should you ever need it. Some are geniuses, and I don't use the word lightly. Yet they have this narrow perspective where all they do, good though it may be, is guided strictly by religion, and for god. They seem to be pretty happy, and frankly I'm at time jealous of that.

I too wish that the sense of community, doing good things together, getting together on a regular basis, I wish there was another imperative than religion that got people as motivated, unfortunately at least for now there is not.
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Old 02-27-2015, 08:16 PM #5176
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I agree with you that religion has benefits, but I do believe on balance, and in the long run it causes far more harm then good, in the context of a modern society.

Were we in the same stage in our understanding of the world, and intellectually as people were 5000 years ago, I would probably even be a devout follower of a religion, and believe it to be wholly good... the basic structure judaism offered for example, guided people in a for the most part benign way to better lives... forcing rest on sabbath, not planting the same field over and over again, constant washing of hands, circumcision to reduce infection, honor for elders, help to the community, etc,. All these things in a primitive society were good.

Of course with that was also the stoning, the caning, the slavery, and other brutalities. Even so, on balance, where society was, religion was a good thing.

Now though, the context has changed. We understand that lighting is not from god being mad, or why washing hands is important. That it has nothing to do with being clean before god, but rather to prevent the spread of bacteria.

Now... religion holds society back, and does more harm, on balance, than it does good.



I can completely relate to that man... I've volunteered at a synagogue before, and have attended many holidays, and ceremonies. I still go on rare occasions when invited, though my views on religion are well known. I too agree that it would be great to meet over something else, but unfortunately to many people religion is literally what they life revolves around... go to yeshiva, go to college, get job, get wife, have lots of kids. Do lots of mitzvot along the way, etc,.

Some of these people are truly wonderful in their dedication to do good, and would literally give the shirt of their back to you should you ever need it. Some are geniuses, and I don't use the word lightly. Yet they have this narrow perspective where all they do, good though it may be, is guided strictly by religion, and for god. They seem to be pretty happy, and frankly I'm at time jealous of that.

I too wish that the sense of community, doing good things together, getting together on a regular basis, I wish there was another imperative than religion that got people as motivated, unfortunately at least for now there is not.



I hear what you are saying...but some people ARE actually only participating in charity, etc, because they are terrified of going to hell...even the ones who seem to be quite enthusiastic about their charity work etc.

Essentially, those people have transferred the emotions to the charity work, and, typically, don't even know they did it.

Some people are genuinely altruistic, in that heaven is not on their mind when they do good...they just LIKE doing good.

So, there are ways to have that camaraderie and community sense w/o it being in a synagogue or church or mosque...such as community organizations, food banks, homeless shelters, meals on wheels, senior centers, etc.

When you go to Church, you only meet those of the same religion, not the REST of the community.

When you participate in community activities, you CAN be interacting with the rest of the community.


Everyone's motivation to contribute to society is going to be different. Why does one person help at a homeless shelter, and another at an animal shelter?

Why does one plant trees/make city gardens, and another teach adults to read?

The one's out saving whales, fighting whale boats and the ones saving pit bulls, from fighting each other, all are trying to DO something good...but why THAT cause, and not another?

Because different people have things resonate differently when struck with them. People either fall into something, or, pursue it actively, or both...when they choose a cause.

Same for hobbies. Why lasers and not stamp collecting or racing weekends at Lime Rock, or Big Game hunting or fishing or mountaineering, etc?

So, we might have a few hobbies/interests, and, a few "causes" we volunteer for, etc...but, no one does EVERYTHING...we choose what resonates with us.


If we all started with a blank slate as far as religion...and similarly CHOSE what we actually believed, on our own, we would most likely NOT be the religion we were born with now....but we start with a heavily marked up slate, not a blank one, and there's typically no room to write OUR OWN beliefs on it.

Different beliefs will resonate with different people, but, resonance can be influenced by harmonics, etc...so, your family and so forth will tend to "tune you" to THEIR resonance as a default.

If you later choose to march to a different drummer, that can trigger family dissonance...but, free you to follow your own path....and the song in YOUR heart.

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Old 02-27-2015, 08:26 PM #5177
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I hear what you are saying...but some people ARE actually only participating in charity, etc, because they are terrified of going to hell...even the ones who seem to be quite enthusiastic about their charity work etc.

Essentially, those people have transferred the emotions to the charity work, and, typically, don't even know they did it.

Some people are genuinely altruistic, in that heaven is not on their mind when they do good...they just LIKE doing good.
This goes to the question of whether the motive, or the action matters more, and how much more.

For example I've always been bothered by the concept of hate crimes.

Edit: I think it would be wonderful if religion was not something taught until a person turned at least say 18.

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Old 02-27-2015, 08:44 PM #5178
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
This goes to the question of whether the motive, or the action matters more, and how much more.

For example I've always been bothered by the concept of hate crimes.

Edit: I think it would be wonderful if religion was not something taught until a person turned at least say 18.
By that time there views on the world are set in stone.
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Old 02-27-2015, 09:09 PM #5179
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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By [adulthood], there views on the world are set in stone.
You think adults can't learn things or be persuaded? That's a categorically stupid thing to say.
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Old 02-27-2015, 09:10 PM #5180
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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By that time there views on the world are set in stone.
Huh... so people pop out at 18 already fully licensed doctors, lawyers, engineers?

I must have gone to the wrong high school.
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Old 02-27-2015, 09:41 PM #5181
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
It is easy for atheists to demand proof from those with faith. Science is easy here.
As I told an atheist friend of mine once when he asked me, an engineer, for proof, I could only respond: "When you can define infinity with finite words, we will both know God".
It's called burden of proof!!

If I walked into a room and said "humans can piss out their ear if they sing and clench their buttocks" would you just believe me or demand proof?

The same applies for religious beliefs and all the fanaticism that goes with it. And I'm sorry, but to any rational person a lot of what is said in this thread (yes, RB_astro, I am looking at you) is just laughable nonsense.

I'm going to burn in hell for eternity because I don't bow down and submit to some imaginary floating sky daddy? F*ck off. I live a perfectly moral and kind life, more so than some people I know who dare to call themselves Christian.


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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
By that time there views on the world are set in stone.
Speak for yourself! Although, that is probably why religion is pushed down people's throats before adulthood - because no mentally sound being would buy that crap. Sorry to say my boy, but you've been had! Cheated!
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Old 02-27-2015, 11:53 PM #5182
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
By that time there views on the world are set in stone.
I disagree. Physical human development stops there, but people are always developing in terms of what they know and what they believe.
You can find stories about people of all ages changing their mind about religion.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:34 AM #5183
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ARG View Post
I disagree. Physical human development stops there, but people are always developing in terms of what they know and what they believe.
You can find stories about people of all ages changing their mind about religion.
In my experience the ones who question and ultimately lose their faith as they grow older, are those with the intelligence and the gall to question what is fed to them. On the contrary, people who have had no faith and "found god" so to speak, have usually done so to fill another void in their life or after a tragedy or near death experience. It consistently seems to be two very different types of people, who lose their faith,and those that gain it.

That's not to say there aren't intelligent, even scientific people who are believers, I know a few and they're very pleasant. The difference with these people is that they can draw the line under "faith" and don't try to pass it off as fact which if you believe otherwise will cause you to suffer eternal damnation!
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:42 AM #5184
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ARG View Post
I disagree. Physical human development stops there, but people are always developing in terms of what they know and what they believe.
You can find stories about people of all ages changing their mind about religion.
that's extremely true, however i think the longer a person goes, the less likely it is they will stop believing, the ego will get in the way. they have gone so long that to admit they might be wrong is to say all the time spent worshiping is wasted, and they would have to rework their world view. that's too damaging to the ego for some, and too much work, very much easier to just stubbornly continue on than admit being wrong. but if a person values truth and will allow themselves to be persuaded based on the best available evidence, they will be happy to change. I heard an anecdote about a scientist whos life's work or maybe just a long period of work on a theory was unlimately proven false, and he thanked the person who proved so.

the desire for truth must be stronger than the fear of mortality and desire for eternal life. I believe this fear of mortality and hell is reflected in pascal's wager, but remember that an all-knowing god would realize you are only professing to believe "just in case", and not because you actually believe
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