Old 02-25-2015, 01:03 PM #5137
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I know you are replying to someone else but I have to comment on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I did not represent it falsely though.

A statement was made the some magic seen at shows was impossible to have performed without demons...and that at shows where people go to contact their deary departed, the demons impersonate the dead people, rather than the medium making contact with the real deceased.

That is what was stated.

I said, in response, that if there's demons at shows doing magic and comforting the bereaved, then, they are not tortured.

I then went on to ask about the nature of Satan and Demons, and IF they ARE supposed to BE tortured for all eternity, etc...but, no one answered.

Teej, I explained to you who and what Satan and the demons are in an earlier post.

That is not a strawman argument. It is not falsely representing what was said.

It was saying, if this (the claim about demons doing magic, etc...), then...



If I had said they could not be at shows because they were busy being tortured...even that is not a strawman argument....as its still addressing that they were at the shows doing magic, etc...which WAS the claim.

Where do you get this idea that they are being tortured somewhere and not walking among us wreaking havoc? This is not a Christian belief, the Catholics don't believe this and I don't think any other Christian denomination does either. They are at war with God and the war is not over yet.

Again, you need to read about logic, and learn the difference between refuting your claim (Which I did not attempt to do if you read the argument), asking you to substantiate an aspect of your claim (Which I did), and saying you made a different claim, and then refuting that claim you didn't make (Which I did not do, but which WOULD HAVE been a strawman argument.



So, I am NOT attacking you at all, let alone falsely.

I AM asking you to substantiate the aspect of your claim that seems in conflict with Christianity's claim that the demons were cast into hell for eternal torment....since it was brought up that they are doing magic shows and comforting the bereaved, etc....instead of being tortured.


I was giving you an opportunity to clarify your claimed position...not making up a position.

You do sometimes just make stuff up. In fact you should consider quitting your day job if you have one and start writing, I think you could be successful at it.

Another example:

"My mother was cured of cancer yesterday, but the doctor at St Barnabus said last year that no prayers could save her, so it must have been demons. They wanted to make people lose faith in modern medicine by discrediting the church affiliated hospital."

So I might respond that it seems odd that demons would cure cancer, and that weren't they supposed to be tortured for all eternity rather than curing cancer?

That is not falsely representing the claim, its following what the claim would mean, and asking if that made sense.



Strawman version:


"My mother was cured of cancer yesterday, but the doctor at St Barnabus said last year that no prayers could save her, so it must have been demons. They wanted to make people lose faith in modern medicine by discrediting the church affiliated hospital."

I might reply that your claim that demons cure diseases is false, because I had my priest cure my acne, which is a disease, and, my priest is not a demon, he a is a great guy, and if you are trying to say my priest is not a great guy, here's a petition signed by 1,000 members of our parish to prove he's great!!

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Now there are some people out there that believe that demons can cause diseases but I am not sure any Christians believe that, and I don't believe they can cure a disease.

See the difference yet?




---------------------


On the agnostic vs atheist issue -


Being an agnostic usually means you are not sure if there's god(s) or not.

Being an atheist means you don't believe there's god(s).


Saying you don't know AN answer to a particular question is typically REJECTING a suggested answer. (If you don't reject it, it means you are no longer in need of the answer...)



In the above case, saying you don't know how the universe came to be, but if you find out, prove it to me...is not the same as saying anything about god.


If you substitute it as follows:

I don't know why my engine won't start...I don't understand it, and I'm not sure I ever will. If you can figure it out and prove to me what's wrong, then I can fix it.

Response: Wait, that means you did not REJECT the possibility that there's a unicorn in your fuel injector pump?


Um, what, A unicorn? No, I can reject it as a likely scenario now though...as a unicorn in the fuel injection is the least likely explanation I CAN think of.


IE: An atheist can say, I don't know why my car won't start, but a unicorn stuck in the fuel pump is not possible....so I still don't know why.

An AGNOSTIC can say, hmmm, a unicorn, hmmmm, I don't see how, but, I'll ask my mechanic to put some unicorn flush through the system just in case....OR that he simply doubts there's a unicorn stuck in there, etc.

Quit bringing up unicorns, they existed once but died out because two of them didn't make it to the ark in time! The same reason there are no dragons, they weren't taken aboard the ark because it wouldn't have been safe to do so. just joking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
- The Earth is 4000/6000 years old

It is a very tiny minority that believes this nonsense, I know we have one here who sometimes posts in this thread, but it is not a common Christian belief. Science tells us that our own solar system formed from the remnants of a supernova explosion, that means the universe was here for billions of years before we were here.

-Man Walked alongside dinosaurs and/or dinosaurs never existed

I have never heard this nonsense before, anyone who says that dinosaurs never existed is a complete idiot! This is not a Christian belief.

-Evolution is a lie

-The big bang didn't happen*

Plenty of Christians believe the Big Bang theory, science can't tell us how and why it happened or what was before the Big Bang so there is no conflict with creation or intelligent design.

It really kind of is though. I'm not saying everyone who believes in God thinks the above things, but a large number of them do, and unfortunately they are usually the loudest ones, so weather intentional or not, they end up representing the faith as a whole.

Not such a large number but a loud voice yes, they are really very few and we shouldn't give them a louder voice by speaking of their nonsense as being mainstream beliefs.

*I will concede that there is no definite and absolute proof of the big bang, but there is strong evidence to support it, so until a better theory comes along, its what I'll accept.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:56 PM #5138
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Cyparagon

There is nothing biblical that tell us to ignore science, pointing out the mistakes of others doesn't counter my point.

Quote:
Atheists, for the most part, state that:

1) Atheism is the rejection of the belief in a god, and that
2) Theism is the view that god exists

and they reject the definition:

3) Atheism is the view that there is no god

Somehow, the atheist by using (1) deceivingly escape the burden of showing that there is no god, and asks the theist to show that god exists. The person who defines atheism as in (1) commits an intellectual laziness and irresponsibility.

@ Shakenawake

I do appreciate you sharing your experience. I honestly don't have a "dug in no matter what" mindset, I spend time in self reflection to make sure of this. I must admit that the idea of becoming an atheist could be nice, the perspective then shifts to the individual as being as the center of the universe. I listen to claims against Christianity but the huge majority is just atheists pointing out the sins or mistakes of Christians.

@ Teej

Here let me quote you to you.

Quote:
On the other hand, sometimes, if I try to get the dog to see the bird...and I'm pointing at it, the dog just keeps looking at my finger, not what its pointing at...so, the context is beyond him.
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:02 PM #5139
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

we do not have to show there is no god. it is the default position. hasnt this been gone over? how would you feel if we asked to be shown there is no tooth fairy or shown there are no leprechauns or santa? there are literally an infinite number of things that there is no reason to have a burden to prove dont exist. what is intellectually lazy is positing gods for every unknown rather than working to find out what's really going on.

Quote:
I must admit that the idea of becoming an atheist could be nice, the perspective then shifts to the individual as being as the center of the universe.
i have no idea what makes you think this. it was religion that formerly claimed and sometimes still does claim that we were the center and that all existence existed and exists for us, and science that usurped that view in favor of one that hardly places us or our planet at the center, quite the opposite is true and I actually feel rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. you seem to repeatedly attribute faults of religion to nonbelievers as if we share them

I am glad to hear you are receptive to ideas, for once you decide you will not be convinced no matter what, you have decided that the truth is not really important to you. realization of this helped me get where I am. many things I now believe I responded negatively towards upon first hearing them, but I realized this was an emotional defense mechanism and confronted them head on. it was still important for me to hear them even if I did not properly process them at the time. though how could you be sure satan isnt working through me with a silver tongue, trying to steal away god's promise from you?

Christians are prone to making mistakes and sins just as any other group. I try to focus on the problems with the bible and god himself as I realize that child molesting priests arent really a good reason not to be christian, there are however plenty of other valid reasons

I apologize for poorly constructed run-on sentences, sometimes I type the way I think
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:18 PM #5140
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
An agnostic, you mean an agnostic right? Saying I don't know isn't rejecting a belief.
No, an atheist.

I completely and fully reject the notion a god as you/christianity present it.

At the same time I'm not arrogant enough to think I have the answers or gullible enough to believe people who claim they do, absent proof.

In the same way that I reject that a colony of hyper intelligent bacteria is currently in the throes of a scientific renaissance within the stomach of an african elephant, just discovered the ability to time travel sans the grandfather paradox, and will grant us all a threesome with our two favorite movie stars in exchange for putting dots of ash on our foreheads, and mumbling once in a while praise be to ANT, and oh, yes, the threesome is not deliverable until you die, and no one will ever come back to confirm if it ever takes place.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet there are elephants! There are bacteria in their guts!

I could tell you what my theories are. I'm fairly confident I have somewhere along the line in this thread, but I have no proof to substantiate those theories, and so I don't force them on others, as a belief system.

You do. Christianity does.

Even if it's not in aggressive manner, you expect allowances to be made for your faith, and your number one representative here on earth, the pope, condones violence in response to art work.
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Old 02-25-2015, 06:31 PM #5141
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well I don't believe the pope is infallible like they say he is, but then I am not Roman Catholic either. I think he is just a man who is chosen to lead by other men.

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Old 02-25-2015, 07:45 PM #5142
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Fair enough, but I extend that proposition to my belief that there is nothing divine about christianity or the bible. That is a fully man made belief system with no supernatural basis, and was designed to offer some guidance to, and more importantly control over people, by other people, and for material gain.
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:22 PM #5143
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Well I don't believe the pope is infallible like they say he is, but then I am not Roman Catholic either. I think he is just a man who is chosen to lead by other men.

Alan
1) In a post above of mine, You replied to examples as if they were claims...which was a bit odd.


2) As you rejected the Catholic Church, as you are NOT a Roman Catholic: Do you believe the Catholic Church's claim that THEY are the ONLY conduit to god?
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:36 PM #5144
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
the perspective then shifts to the individual as being as the center of the universe.
Not the individual, but humanity, perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
There is nothing biblical that tell us to ignore science
Noah flood, creation story, resurrections, 800 year lifespans, and similar bullshit is all telling you to ignore science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
pointing out the mistakes of others doesn't counter my point.
Except those "mistakes of others" are because of the bible. So it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
"The Earth is 4000/6000 years old"

It is a very tiny minority that believes this nonsense, I know we have one here who sometimes posts in this thread, but it is not a common Christian belief.
WTF are you talking about?? 18-39% is NOT a very tiny minority:
Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-25-2015, 09:42 PM #5145
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
WTF are you talking about?? 18-39% is NOT a very tiny minority:
Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In my experience all religious jews that I've met also hold this belief, specifically, that the earth/universe was created already old, but only 5-6 thousand years ago.
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:46 PM #5146
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
1) In a post above of mine, You replied to examples as if they were claims...which was a bit odd.

Well I will try to be more careful how I word things but if anyone does make those claims then you know my opinions.

2) As you rejected the Catholic Church, as you are NOT a Roman Catholic: Do you believe the Catholic Church's claim that THEY are the ONLY conduit to god?
Absolutely not! LDS also claim they are the only conduit to God and I don't believe them either. That would make all other Christian denominations in valid. I don't believe any church can make such a claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Not the individual, but humanity, perhaps.



Noah flood, creation story, resurrections, 800 year lifespans, and similar bullshit is all telling you to ignore science.



Except those "mistakes of others" are because of the bible. So it does.



WTF are you talking about?? 18-39% is NOT a very tiny minority:
Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I could be wrong but I find that very hard to believe. That's not something they teach in most churches and you almost never hear it on Christian TV or radio. I have been a Christian since I was 7 or 8 years old (about 46 years) and I don't remember anyone ever telling me they believed this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
In my experience all religious jews that I've met also hold this belief, specifically, that the earth/universe was created already old, but only 5-6 thousand years ago.
Thanks for sharing that, I'll look into that, I was unaware they believe this. It is certainly not biblical, even if you interpret the bible literally there is no basis for this.

Alan
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Old 02-26-2015, 02:30 AM #5147
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I find that very hard to believe [that 18-39% of USA residents are young earth creationists]
Would you care to do some research and link some of your own statistics? Your purely anecdotal representation of the situation isn't very convincing. I'd say it's even less convincing than a series of polls taken by Gallup, a respected company.
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:20 AM #5148
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Would you care to do some research and link some of your own statistics? Your purely anecdotal representation of the situation isn't very convincing. I'd say it's even less convincing than a series of polls taken by Gallup, a respected company.
I spent some time on this this evening and I have to admit you are correct. It looks like 42% of Americans are creationists and nearly half of them are young earth creationists. I am disappointed that so many Americans can be so stupid! I am not convinced of the accuracy of Gallup polls since it is a sample of only 1028 adults over 18 done by telephone only, but it is probably accurate enough. Only about 430 of those polled would have been creationists, I am not convinced that is enough to get a reasonable random sample. I hope someone does a larger poll someday of just the creationists to see how many are young earth and how many are old earth creationists.

I see this nonsense does possibly have its roots in Judaism. It's unfortunate Jesus or the apostles aren't known to have ever spoken on this subject. Maybe no one was thinking about it much back then.

Alan
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:28 AM #5149
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Ha! It all makes sense now

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Old 02-26-2015, 08:56 AM #5150
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

LOL! If Angels are real they are not physical entities, they are spirit entities and are supposed to be immortal, so it would be impossible to poison them.

Here is the link to that article: Are Militant Atheists Using Chemtrails to Poison the Angels in Heaven? - HardDawn.com | HardDawn.com

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Old 02-26-2015, 02:49 PM #5151
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
LOL! If Angels are real they are not physical entities, they are spirit entities and are supposed to be immortal, so it would be impossible to poison them.

Here is the link to that article: Are Militant Atheists Using Chemtrails to Poison the Angels in Heaven? - HardDawn.com | HardDawn.com

Alan
Wow. That whole website... I want to believe it's satire... please tell me it's like the onion?
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Old 02-26-2015, 03:26 PM #5152
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Wow. That whole website... I want to believe it's satire... please tell me it's like the onion?
IE you've got to read the one about the cats: Why Are Cats Immune to Chemtrails? 5 Possible Answers From Science - HardDawn.com | HardDawn.com I can't stop laughing!

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