Old 02-24-2015, 09:24 PM #5121
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 02-24-2015, 09:31 PM #5122
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I wouldn't bring up straw man since it's nearly your trademark... You do lot's of "So you says" then pick apart what you just setup. BTW the video's loose point comes at the very end, where Dennis admits to having faith.

Atheism is a bold claim, and of course you are you entitled to believe there is no creator, but you are the same as every religion in saying that your belief is the most valid, and everyone else has it wrong.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:58 PM #5123
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
you are the same as every religion in saying that your belief is the most valid, and everyone else has it wrong.
NO.

"I don't know what's out there, where we came from or why. I may never know. If you do know, tell me, and prove it. If you can't prove it, don't expect me to believe what you're telling me." - An atheist.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:02 PM #5124
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 02-24-2015, 10:07 PM #5125
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I wouldn't bring up straw man since it's nearly your trademark... You do lot's of "So you says" then pick apart what you just setup. BTW the video's loose point comes at the very end, where Dennis admits to having faith.

Atheism is a bold claim, and of course you are you entitled to believe there is no creator, but you are the same as every religion in saying that your belief is the most valid, and everyone else has it wrong.
No, its not the same.

Me saying that if you said something, then that would mean the following is true, is not a strawman argument.

Its called following the conclusion to what it would logically predict.

You just don't like what your statements lead to logically....as they don't support the position you thought you were supporting.

Having actors pretend to take a stance...and have them follow an illogical script in contrast to what would have been the conversation if not pre-loaded, and then have the script pull an unsupported conclusion that, surprise surprise, support the unsupported position, is a strawman argument.

I have not used a strawman argument yet.

Look at the actual statements I respond to, and, my actual responses.

Notice that I am simply taking what was said, and taking it to its logical conclusions.

I almost always phrase it along the lines of "If you meant this, then wouldn't this then follow...".


IE: "Demons are doing magic acts for magicians, and pretending to be dead people for mediums"

Wouldn't that mean that demons are frolicking around Las Vegas doing magic shows and comforting the bereaved over their lost loved ones? (An example of where a show where demonic forces would be needed, for the show to be otherwise impossible, and, as the demons pretending to be the deceased only say comforting things, they are comforting the bereaved...)?

That's not a strawman argument.

Adding, aren't they supposed to be suffering eternal torture in hellfire? How can they also be doing Las Vegas shows, etc?


Now, if the POINT was going to then make LAS VEGAS, as a specific location, IE: a pivotal part of the argument, and THEN go on to prove that there are no demons in Las Vegas, or that Las Vegas would not work for the following reasons, etc....THAT would be a strawman argument, as YOU never said anything about Las Vegas per se.


See the difference?

A strawman argument disproves something you didn't say or claim.

I was not disproving anything, merely pointing out that demons doing magic shows seemed in contrast to the proscribed torture for all eternity, etc.


If I said, in response to you saying demons are required for magic shows that would otherwise be impossible, that a trick you never mentioned, such as sawing a man in half, was performed in the following fashion, and was an illusion..and showed illustrations, etc...to prove that demons were NOT required, THAT would be a strawman argument. (Because you didn't say that sawing man in half was impossible w/o demons, so showing it can be done w/o demons would be a strawman argument)


See the pattern, the difference between a strawman argument, and taking a statement or claim to it logical conclusions, or at least to questions that would logically follow?


You can probably google some actual sources that discuss logic, etc, and get a lot more detail than I can do in a quick post between clients, but, if you read up on it, you'll see, hopefully, the differences.

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Old 02-24-2015, 10:52 PM #5126
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
NO.

"I don't know what's out there, where we came from or why. I may never know. If you do know, tell me, and prove it. If you can't prove it, don't expect me to believe what you're telling me." - An atheist.
An agnostic, you mean an agnostic right? Saying I don't know isn't rejecting a belief.

@Teej

"So you say" and then attacking it is representing your opponents arguement falsely which you have done. Call it whatever you want though.

The abundant fallacies in the video IMO are what make it hilarious. But that's not to say that one reasonable point cannot be taken from it.
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Old 02-24-2015, 11:39 PM #5127
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
An agnostic, you mean an agnostic right? Saying I don't know isn't rejecting a belief.

@Teej

"So you say" and then attacking it is representing your opponents arguement falsely which you have done. Call it whatever you want though.

The abundant fallacies in the video IMO are what make it hilarious. But that's not to say that one reasonable point cannot be taken from it.




I did not represent it falsely though.

A statement was made the some magic seen at shows was impossible to have performed without demons...and that at shows where people go to contact their deary departed, the demons impersonate the dead people, rather than the medium making contact with the real deceased.

That is what was stated.

I said, in response, that if there's demons at shows doing magic and comforting the bereaved, then, they are not tortured.

I then went on to ask about the nature of Satan and Demons, and IF they ARE supposed to BE tortured for all eternity, etc...but, no one answered.

That is not a strawman argument. It is not falsely representing what was said.

It was saying, if this (the claim about demons doing magic, etc...), then...



If I had said they could not be at shows because they were busy being tortured...even that is not a strawman argument....as its still addressing that they were at the shows doing magic, etc...which WAS the claim.



Again, you need to read about logic, and learn the difference between refuting your claim (Which I did not attempt to do if you read the argument), asking you to substantiate an aspect of your claim (Which I did), and saying you made a different claim, and then refuting that claim you didn't make (Which I did not do, but which WOULD HAVE been a strawman argument.



So, I am NOT attacking you at all, let alone falsely.

I AM asking you to substantiate the aspect of your claim that seems in conflict with Christianity's claim that the demons were cast into hell for eternal torment....since it was brought up that they are doing magic shows and comforting the bereaved, etc....instead of being tortured.


I was giving you an opportunity to clarify your claimed position...not making up a position.



Another example:

"My mother was cured of cancer yesterday, but the doctor at St Barnabus said last year that no prayers could save her, so it must have been demons. They wanted to make people lose faith in modern medicine by discrediting the church affiliated hospital."

So I might respond that it seems odd that demons would cure cancer, and that weren't they supposed to be tortured for all eternity rather than curing cancer?

That is not falsely representing the claim, its following what the claim would mean, and asking if that made sense.



Strawman version:


"My mother was cured of cancer yesterday, but the doctor at St Barnabus said last year that no prayers could save her, so it must have been demons. They wanted to make people lose faith in modern medicine by discrediting the church affiliated hospital."

I might reply that your claim that demons cure diseases is false, because I had my priest cure my acne, which is a disease, and, my priest is not a demon, he a is a great guy, and if you are trying to say my priest is not a great guy, here's a petition signed by 1,000 members of our parish to prove he's great!!



See the difference yet?




---------------------


On the agnostic vs atheist issue -


Being an agnostic usually means you are not sure if there's god(s) or not.

Being an atheist means you don't believe there's god(s).


Saying you don't know AN answer to a particular question is typically REJECTING a suggested answer. (If you don't reject it, it means you are no longer in need of the answer...)



In the above case, saying you don't know how the universe came to be, but if you find out, prove it to me...is not the same as saying anything about god.


If you substitute it as follows:

I don't know why my engine won't start...I don't understand it, and I'm not sure I ever will. If you can figure it out and prove to me what's wrong, then I can fix it.

Response: Wait, that means you did not REJECT the possibility that there's a unicorn in your fuel injector pump?


Um, what, A unicorn? No, I can reject it as a likely scenario now though...as a unicorn in the fuel injection is the least likely explanation I CAN think of.


IE: An atheist can say, I don't know why my car won't start, but a unicorn stuck in the fuel pump is not possible....so I still don't know why.

An AGNOSTIC can say, hmmm, a unicorn, hmmmm, I don't see how, but, I'll ask my mechanic to put some unicorn flush through the system just in case....OR that he simply doubts there's a unicorn stuck in there, etc.




All I did was substitute YOUR supernatural solution for a DIFFERENT supernatural solution, not to prove anything about god or unicorns, but to show how the same argument, in an EXAMPLE, would play out with the substitution, and how that illustrates the difference between saying you don't know AN answer, and, if that DID mean rejection of a SUGGESTED answer, or not.


So if your CLAIM was that him saying he did not KNOW AN answer (as to the nature of the universe) meant he did NOT REJECT your answer (god as explanation) as a possibility...made him an agnostic instead of an atheist....that is what follows.



See the difference?




PS - I must have missed it, what was the one reasonable point that can be taken from the video? I can't see any points in it. Sure, it WAS funny, but, it made no actual points. Essentially, it was:

Look, these people you thought were smart because the made break throughs that were astounding for their time, also still had some ancient beliefs too, so, science is wrong and you're a science bitch if you believe any of it. If there are millions of pieces of evidence that exist, and you read a few things about them, say in school, it doesn't count unless YOU were there looking at the fossil records,

BUT

Its better to read ONE source, say a spider man comic, that proves there's a spider man, because it says so right there in the comic book...and believe in spider man instead of science.

That's not valid point, that's a caricature of creationist babble.

To put it another way, the point is that if a scientist was wrong about ANYTHING, even if right about other things, then science is invalid.


Or, another way - Einstein forgot to carry the 2 one time in a math problem, so obviously atom bombs and GPS didn't work decades later.

Newton thought he might be able to change lead to gold, so calculus doesn't work.


Or, the bible has mistakes in it, therefore there's no god.

See how that argument works?


IE: The bible COULD have mistakes in it WITHOUT proving there is no god. The only god THAT would preclude, logically, is a perfect god, who is represented on earth by infallible men, chosen BY god, who's words were breathed into their ears, so that everything they wrote down was exactly as god intended.

Obviously, THAT god would not allow a typo, or a mistranslation, or an anachronism such as a 1000 AD expression appearing to be used by a BC era person, or any other imperfection.

So, the bible DOES leave room for IMPERFECT entities to breath their words into the ears of men, men who god chose, but, who were poor choices.

The OTHER option is that god DID breath the words perfectly into his chosen men, and they wrote it down EXACTLY as dictated....but, later editing by the church, political pressures to make the bible more ruler friendly, the lessons more about submittal and subservience...and, later, about infallibility, etc. (The infallible parts did not appear for many hundreds of years...it wasn't in any earlier versions...)

So, god was perfect, as far as delivery, and the church corrupted it.

ALL of the above are EXAMPLES of options.


Short answer = A person can make a mistake w/o negating other ideas. Newton invented calculus, which works great. Einstein predicted the GPS and atom bomb would work, and, they did. If Newton dabbled in alchemy, calculus still works. If Einstein waffled on quantum physics, the GPS and so forth still work.

Science, as a process, is not negated by one of its members making a mistake, any more than a religion is invalid because one of ITS members raped a child.


Another point is that science is a process, not a religion. Theists tend to say, so, you believe in science instead of god? - As if those are the choices.


So, you believe in NOT COLLECTING STAMPS, instead of god? So you believe in science, instead of in collecting stamps? etc...its all meaningless drivel.




As for "Bold Claims" -

Not really...its the ABSENCE of a belief.

If you flip it around so that if someone doesn't believe in say, Unicorns, that this is "A Bold Claim".


I don't have a "belief in the absence of unicorns, as my religion", as much as I don't believe that they exist...just as I don't believe that I should worship stamp collectors.

IE:

My religion is not "Not Worshiping Stamp Collectors".


To me, "Not Worshiping Stamp Collectors" = "Not Worshiping Buddha" = "Not Worshiping Bal" = "Not Worshiping The God of the JEWS" = "Not Worshiping the God of the Catholics" = "Not Worshiping a Jackal"

And so forth.

I am not spending time "NOT WORSHIPING" anything.

Atheism is not a religion....its the lack of a religion.

Are YOU "Making a Bold Statement" when you "DON'T Worship a COW?"


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Old 02-25-2015, 12:34 AM #5128
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
An agnostic, you mean an agnostic right? Saying I don't know isn't rejecting a belief....
we are free to reject untenable answers without positing our own. many christians cant grasp this. we are ok saying "i don't know" we are fine living like this, even if we would like to know. we are not so desperate to complete our knowledge and understanding that we will fill gaps in knowledge with gods. doing so halts the advancement of further understanding, which is a detriment to us. we do not need to supply an answer to demonstrate that others are false. history is replete with religion getting in the way of scientific advancement because dogma would rather not change, and maintain it's control, than allow updated and more accurate information. but if you would rather believe a consistent lie than a growing understanding, that's your choice. then you can maintain the opinion that god is steadfast and science is wishy washy

I can only assume i stumped RB, he has failed to respond to me. maybe he's hard at work researching and rationalizing away. still waiting.
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Old 02-25-2015, 01:31 AM #5129
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

God and science are not at odds, when will this finally be understood. Christianity does not inpede science, some people try to though. Also "I don't know" is fine, I understand, but "I don't know" is the agnostic stance. An atheist stance is rejection, which requires belief, which also requires faith.

RB probably walked away, which is what I should do too.

Teej my logic is fine, you've misrepresented my arguements before and attacked them.
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Old 02-25-2015, 02:04 AM #5130
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God and science are not at odds, when will this finally be understood. Christianity does not inpede science, some people try to though. Also "I don't know" is fine, I understand, but "I don't know" is the agnostic stance. An atheist stance is rejection, which requires belief, which also requires faith.

RB probably walked away, which is what I should do too.

Teej my logic is fine, you've misrepresented my arguements before and attacked them.
If I did, it was unintentional, and I apologize.

Please show me some examples of my doing this, so I can adjust accordingly. (Show me where I took your claim, and falsely represented it, to disprove your real claim)

- Thanks!


And

No. "I don't know if there is a god" is an agnostic response. "I don't know how I got here/how the universe works, etc..." is atheistic if the SUGGESTED answer (God) is not considered. It would only be agnostic as an answer if god were considered to be a possible answer.

"I don't know" in of itself, is not agnostic or atheistic.

He did NOT say he didn't know if there were a god or not. He said he didn't know reasons for a different issue.

Pretend that it was "I don't know how the train will get here in time due to the weather"

Does that mean he is agnostic about the existence of god?

No, he was talking about the train, and the weather.


Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
NO.

"I don't know what's out there, where we came from or why. I may never know. If you do know, tell me, and prove it. If you can't prove it, don't expect me to believe what you're telling me." - An atheist.
I don't see him saying "I'm not sure if there's a god or not" or "I don't know if god exists"

I DO see him saying he doesn't know what's out there, and if you say you do know, prove it.


That's not an agnostic statement.





I hear you on god and science...and, I don't think Christianity itself impedes science, as much as some Christians INTERPRETATION of science combined with their INTERPRETATION of their religion, DOES impede science.

I work with a lot of scientists, and while sure, most are not religious, some at least go to church on Sunday if their wives (or sig other) make them, etc. They can do their jobs w/o too much conflict, if their field is not in conflict.

The Christians that DO impede science for example, are the ones who want creationism and/or intelligent design taught in schools instead of actual science.

The children suffer tremendously, as when they leave their cloistered bible belt school, and go to collage for example, they will suddenly be faced with all these people who disagree with them...and, later, people who won't hire them.

They are not hired because the interviewer hates Christians, they are not hired because they come across as potentially dangerous morons.

Obviously, we all know potentially dangerous morons with perfectly wonderful jobs, but typically, if you want a job in science, starting as a creationist is a bad path to get there.


Yes, Mr Jones, we will be executing a mission to a distant star, near the Crab Nebula, and we need scientists to calculate the trajectories required to get our exploratory equipment to it for some ground breaking research.

We want only the best and the brightest of course. So, to give me an idea of your abilities, off the cuff, the nebula is ~ 6,500 light years away, and the star was observed to die approximately 1,000 years ago with it became a supernova. So, if it took the light from it 6,500 years to reach earth, and the people on earth observed it ~ 1,000 AD, that means the star died of old age approximately 7,500 years ago.

How old would a ship be by the time it reached this location if it were using current ion drive engines?


Mr. Smith, you must have made a mistake, the star could not have died 7,500 years ago, as it was not made by god until 6,500 years ago. And it could not be that far away anyway, because a dragon's tail would not have reached that far.

Mr. Jones, thank you for stopping by, we have decided to go another way at this time....







So, while religion DEFINITELY has a proven record of impeding science, historically, as an active and violent practice, in my view, most of it, in modern USA at least, is from interpretations that impede it. IE: VERY VERY FEW Christians are creationists...but, the creationists are a VERY VERY VOCAL and active group, and, they bully school districts, etc, into dumbing down the programs until they don't find them objectionable. Creationism camouflaged as ID though DOES sneak past a lot of BS detectors, seen a a "compromise" by many boards for example, who want to avoid controversy.

So, instead of spending MORE TIME on important things like science, time is wasted teaching things that are false, but presented as if they are science. So they don't learn anything useful, and, they are taught things which are essentially lies that further confuse young impressionable minds.

Instead of understanding that the moon makes tides go in/out, they are taught that god makes the tides go in/out. Instead of learning that the scientific method is responsible for all of the technology they enjoy, they are taught that science doesn't work, and believers in it are fools. Instead of learning about how vaccines work, and how they saved countless lives from polio and so forth, they are taught that god made us perfect so getting a vaccine is implying that you want to "fix" god's mistakes, and, that that would be an arrogance beyond forgiveness....so the unvaccinated children are killed and crippled by their parent's "faith".

IE: Loss of real knowledge, loss of ability to apply logic and the scientific method to solve problems, loss of whatever breakthroughs these crippled or murdered young minds MIGHT HAVE been capable of.

Religion is a tolerable lie (To me). I don't feel I need to run around the kindergarten telling them all there's no Santa. If they ASK me about Santa, I, well in kindergarten, I did NOT rat the fat boy out....if its all grownups who try to tell me there's a Santa, that's a different story as well...and I'm willing to share my views.


Creationism/ID is another story though. That is truly harmful, with long-term repercussions.

Teaching ID as equal to real science is not OK. Presenting "Both Sides" is not OK. Science is science, ID is thinly veiled creationism.

Its as if the science teachers were granted permission to show up at Sunday School, and teach science instead of bible studies...the bible study at Sunday School, is where it belongs. Sunday School should not be conducted in Public Schools.

If you are at a Catholic School, for example, fine, its a CATHOLIC SCHOOL, DOH.

So, as long as theists (Not just Christians...its no picnic being a scientist in some Muslim countries either lately...) STOP trying to pretend religion IS SCIENCE, or even based on or supported by science, which it is not, in any way shape or form...and/or stop murdering/punishing anyone who CONSIDERS that there is no god, or a particular god, etc...then science can continue.

If they CONTINUE though, they do impede science.

Impeding science impedes humanity.



I know that our time on earth, as a species, is limited, as the earth itself is a temporary home. Our sun will expand and incinerate the earth, and that will be it....not a trace left of our civilization here.

Our only hope is to use the next few billion years to figure out how to get the eff out of here, and not die out there instead.


It is NOT an easy task, relocating a planet's inhabitants to a new planet. The distances are mind boggling. The logistics are mind boggling. Even colonizing new planets with Mayflower type expeditions inside of our own solar system will be a daunting task.

We have a LOT of science to do, a lot of discoveries and break thoroughs to make...before we are ready to spread out into the stars that we are composed of, and go home.




Religion will not get us to these new planets. Science may not either, but, if I have a choice between a wing and a prayer...if I have to fly, I'll put my money on the wings.


On a philosophical note, to me, one of the saddest things would be the idea that another life form had advanced to the point where they were also looking for us, as we had been looking for them...and we miss each other due to the vast spaces and times involved.

If every few billion years, the planet that life developed on, is destroyed by its sun, the life may never leave a single trace...and each successive life form may reach the same point, and be erased forever. The cosmic black board wiped clean, over and over again. If the molten cores that generate the magnetic fields that shield us from radiation, cool to the point where they stop spinning enough to lose enough field, that would stop the party even earlier...as it seems to on mars.

The TIME needed to develop to the point where you can THINK ABOUT the potential for there to BE other life forms, based merely upon our own experience, is ~ 4.5 BILLION years.

Our planet is at least ~ halfway through its lifespan, and we JUST started thinking about this issue. If early earth had been a bit less hostile, so the dinosaurs would have ruled a few million more years, etc, we might STILL be leaping from tree to tree or running down game in the savannahs, or in a cage in a zoo, etc.

So, we need to get our butts in gear, stop fiddle farting around with wastes of time that imply, or even state, that "science is an opinion or a faith, etc", and actually figure out what REALLY matters, which is saving humanity from extinction.

Noah will not be building a spaceship to carry off the 2 unclean/7 clean pairs of survivors. We will potentially, if all goes well, do SOMETHING, but, who knows what it will be. I DO think referring to it as an "Ark" WOULD be tremendously popular though, its a natural reference.











So, anyway, show me my false representations of your claims used to disprove your real claims. I DO want to see what you're talking about.

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Old 02-25-2015, 02:25 AM #5131
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Post #5106

Also you comments on IE's comment standing alone, make sense, but in the context that he posted it I stand by my reaponse. You're missing the context.
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:05 AM #5132
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Christianity does not inpede science
*points to young earth creationists*
*gestures towards the fundamentalists*
*indicates the widespread HIV/AIDS largely due to christian "condoms are evil" stuff*
*could do this all day*

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God and science are not at odds
That really depends on how you define God, doesn't it? If you define God as supernatural, or "outside science" then of course they're not at odds because you've defined it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm saying your atheism is based on faith, just like the religions you condemn.
Does it require faith to denounce fairies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
you are the same as every religion in saying that your belief is the most valid, and everyone else has it wrong.


Once again, you're forgetting where the burden of proof lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
An agnostic, you mean an agnostic right? Saying I don't know isn't rejecting a belief.
NO. We've been over this already. Remember russel's teapot? If you were to claim there is an invisible spider in your armpit that does not interact with the material world, It would not be possible for me to disprove it, but I am entitled to live my life under the assumption that such a spider does not exist.

Do you believe in zeus? No? You can't disprove him, so you must take the position "he might be there, or he might not be", right?

Do you believe a supervirus in your ballsack will kill all humans the moment it comes in contact with a higgs boson? No? Well, you can't disprove it, so you're not allowed to say you don't believe in it, right?

Do you believe in a giant dildo of neutrinos fucking you in the ass for seven hours on every Thursday while Frodo baggins wearing the ring of power watches silently from the corner? You can't disprove it, so you can't say you don't believe in it, right? How silly do we have to get for you to understand this.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE INDIVIDUAL THAT MAKES THE CLAIM.
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Old 02-25-2015, 03:22 AM #5133
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God and science are not at odds, when will this finally be understood. Christianity does not inpede science, some people try to though. Also "I don't know" is fine, I understand, but "I don't know" is the agnostic stance. An atheist stance is rejection, which requires belief, which also requires faith.

RB probably walked away, which is what I should do too.

Teej my logic is fine, you've misrepresented my arguements before and attacked them.
wrong. I can reject without having a belief of my own. just because I don't know in a god exists, doesnt mean I am not free to reject all claims of specific gods, such as yours, which I find untenable. no belief or faith reqired. it's really not that difficult. believe me, there was a time I wanted very dearly for a god to exist. I could worry a lot less and rest easy knowing things will work out. attempting to justify this stance led me to where I am now, as i found I had nothing on which to stand, despite formerly believing very firmly that I did. I even used to preach to others and at one point referenced kent hovind. (I know I know, so sorry.)

what I wonder, are you even prepared to be convinced, or have you decided ahead of time that nothing could convince you? my mother is fond of the saying "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" without realizing it could easily apply to her. she thinks I have something against god and nothing could convince me otherwise. this isnt true, I just have a high standard of evidence. the same is not true for her, she has adorned the armor of god and will use her shield of faith to block even the most comprehensive refutations

yes christianity has often impeded science. Galileo is just one example. all one has to do is point out an observable phenomena that contradicts the bible. makes me wonder why, if the words were "god breathed", and god knows the workings of the universe, would such errors crop up? why would the bible say the sun stood still rather than say the earth ceased to rotate? why would the bible claim the stars were small enough they could fall to the ground?

walking away is of course the easy route. it's always easier to deny than refute. for me the transormation from believer to atheist was pretty gradual. denial was one of my responses. when one leg was removed, I shifted weight to the others, until eventually none were left and I had no choice but to admit so. believe me, many layers of defense had to be breached. I realize you may take this to mean you should follow my example, but I really just mean to tell my story, not tell you what to do. for me it was as simple as making sure all my thought and opinions were as consistent with reality and as free from bias as possible. perhaps you should read through the Quran, bhagavad gita, and tibetan book of the dead and make sure you do not find them truer than yours. it may help to imagine your parents telling you each is true before reading each one, so you can examine them in an unbiased fashion
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:22 AM #5134
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Post #5106

Also you comments on IE's comment standing alone, make sense, but in the context that he posted it I stand by my reaponse. You're missing the context.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The first council of Nicaea didn't question the fact that Jesus rose from the dead or that he was divine. Historically Jesus ' resurrection can no more be proven than it can be disproven, but from the evidence we do have we know something extraordinary happened. I wouldn't dwell on every specific on how the spiritual interacts with the physical, not everything has been revealed to us.

1 Corinthians 13 : 12
------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post


So, you say its possible to "resurrect" someone who didn't die? If not dead, they don't NEED to be resurrected.

Deciding on if he CAN be "resurrected" is step one in deciding if he WAS resurrected.

Deciding if he was a man, and COULD die, is important, as otherwise HE DIDN'T DIE.

And so forth...so, you are glossing over an ENORMOUSLY important set of concepts as if they don't matter....when in fact, they are PIVOTAL.





You say the trinity is simply different aspects of the same entity, in which case, that's like saying EVERYONE should be referred to as aspects of themselves, instead of as themselves, etc.

IE: Why refer to aspects separately when you have one entity?

If they are all one entity, just say so.

If they are three entities, just say so.

For example, if you pray to a Saint, can the Saint help you? The "Patron Saint" status they enjoy seems to support that.

If you pray to an angel, can the angel help you?

If you pray to god, are there intermediaries, such as angels, who are responsible for answering your prayers, or, does god so the work?

If you pray to Jesus, is Jesus also god, who hears your prayers, or does Jesus hear your prayer if you pray to Jesus, and god hear your prayer if you pray to god? If it doesn't matter, why does GOD want YOU to to pray to JESUS?



DID Jesus die on the cross?

If he died, then, he was not immortal. If he was god, then god died.

If god didn't die, then he did not die for your sins.


If he died, but, god brought him back to life, then, if you believe that, you are a polytheist, as you believe there was a god, and his son.

He could not bring himself back to life, as that requires action, and, he'd still be dead until he took that action. So, if he "resurrected himself", he wasn't actually dead, and therefore did not die for your sins.

If Jesus was god, and he did die, then god died....and so forth.


So, yes, its completely pivotal to answer the questions.


I still don't see what you are talking about?

Show me your claim that I falsely represented...I can't find it.

Also, what's the correct context for what you added about IE?

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Old 02-25-2015, 05:38 AM #5135
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God and science are not at odds.
- The Earth is 4000/6000 years old

-Man Walked alongside dinosaurs and/or dinosaurs never existed

-Evolution is a lie

-The big bang didn't happen*

It really kind of is though. I'm not saying everyone who believes in God thinks the above things, but a large number of them do, and unfortunately they are usually the loudest ones, so weather intentional or not, they end up representing the faith as a whole.

*I will concede that there is no definite and absolute proof of the big bang, but there is strong evidence to support it, so until a better theory comes along, its what I'll accept.
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Old 02-25-2015, 10:18 AM #5136
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

The point of science is not to replace religion.

Its not a "one or the other" proposition.

Religion is an attempt to make sense of things by attributing supernatural forces as explanations of what we don't understand..IE: I don't know how that happens, so, god must be doing it.

Science is an attempt to make sense of things by exploring different ways things MIGHT be happening, hoping a model is found that explains it. The difference is that science doesn't require there to be an answer for everything at at once.

IE: NOT knowing how things work DRIVES science, as the process of science is how we DO find out how things work, eventually.

There is really no "Belief in Science" anymore than there is a "Belief in Math".

Its not a religion, its a process for understanding how things work by proposing hypothesis, which are then tested by multiple sources, and rejected, and/or accepted over time...and, if solid enough based upon these challenges, accepted as scientific principles or theories, such as evolution, or gravity, etc.

So all of the conflicts between religion and science, historically, come from organized religions protecting their turf.

If the organized religion says that the earth stars are fixed in the sky, and a scientist comes along and shows they are not, the organized religions historically do not then adjust their books, they threaten the scientist with torture or burning at the stake, etc...until he recants.

The more power the organized religions had at any given time, relative to the governments, the more likely they were to just go right to the stake (The stake as a symbol of murdering the scientist, as in reality, myriad methods were used to kill them)


So science can provide explanations that are able to be verified, and that can be used to predict things based upon them. Not like Nostradamus, but like relativity and how a GPS or atom bomb works, etc.

They come up with potential explanations, and, see if they work. They see if there are things that DON'T work when the new idea is assumed.

If the theory holds up, and things based upon it WORK, that's great...but if someone comes up with a better theory, that explains even more, they don't murder the new scientist, the old scientist might argue for his theory, but, he might lose if the new one is better, and, we dump the old one and go with the new improved version.

That means science is dynamic, and adaptable. Its a method that has dragged us up out of the mud and allowed us into space....not with dogma, but with reason.

Religion is completely unrelated other than that both attempt to answer questions.

Science is not looking for our purpose. That's not its job.

Religion is not looking for our purpose, it TELLS you that your purpose is to worship THEIR god.

Religion is not LOOKING for answers, its TELLING you answers...but, different religions tell you DIFFERENT ANSWERS.

Its a completely different concept.

One is actively seeking answers, the other is telling you "here is everything you need to know".


If we find that the Big Bang can be replaced by a new theory that also explains Hawking Radiation, Red Shift, etc...great...eventually, that means we'll know even more.

Scientists don't "Believe in the Big Bang" as a religion, anymore than you "Believe in the Moon Causing Tides" as a religion.


Atheists don't believe that there is a god. There is no such thing as a religion that consists of not believing something.

Its like a word that means you don't collect stamps, or don't believe in unicorns.

You would not say "My Religion is NOT collecting Stamps".

I practice it by not collecting stamps.

We don't meet every Sunday, to discuss not collecting stamps.

IE: NOT COLLECTING STAMPS is not a religion.

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