Old 02-22-2015, 06:35 PM #5105
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@Teej

I'm not glossing over anything, just trying to have a dialogue and your long responses contain a lot of "you say" lines and they aren't necessarily things I said or meant. You're essentially setting yourself up to make your points, it doesn't feel like a shared conversation. Also you keep bringing up that councils debate on doctrine and although you havent said, it seems like your logic is "something in Chriatianity was debated" therefore Christianity is invalid.

Also maybe I missed I earlier but what is your worldview?


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Old 02-22-2015, 07:40 PM #5106
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@Teej

I'm not glossing over anything, just trying to have a dialogue and your long responses contain a lot of "you say" lines and they aren't necessarily things I said or meant. You're essentially setting yourself up to make your points, it doesn't feel like a shared conversation. Also you keep bringing up that councils debate on doctrine and although you havent said, it seems like your logic is "something in Chriatianity was debated" therefore Christianity is invalid.

Also maybe I missed I earlier but what is your worldview?


To clarify then, I have specified what was debated in earlier posts, so I alluded to the debate, rather than restate it.

I even mentioned Santa Claus punching a guy over the debate for example, perhaps some details are now fuzzy as that was many posts ago?



BTW - When an argument makes a point that some aspect off something is not valid, it doesn't always mean that it means nothing related is valid either.

These should be taken on a case by case basis.

For example, if someone says that magic tricks are due to demons, and I ask about what the poster believes about demons, given some points that indicate that I am doubtful of their supposition/statement, etc...

...it doesn't necessarily mean that everything that person says is invalid....merely the aspect of what was stated is called into question.

If a statement is made that the type of divinity possessed by an entity is a small unimportant detail, and I call into question how that can be when the religion in question bases almost its entire existence upon those details, it doesn't mean that the religion is "invalid", merely that the statement that the details are unimportant is called into question.

And so forth.

When I say things along the lines of "What you are essentially saying is then....", it is my way of putting what you said into perspective, and, taking your thought as expressed, and what would then be the case based upon it.



So, if someone says "Demons pretend to be dead people at shows that people come to to contact dead loved ones"...

It then means for example that demons are not really being tortured while they are busy comforting the bereaved at the show.

So, sure, the statement was not "that demons are not tortured for all eternity", merely that if they are at shows, then they are not really being tortured...they are participating in earthy activities....so, that's what would follow if the magic show/bereaved comfort duties were part of the demonic routine.


So, no, a debate about something doesn't mean its invalid, anymore than an argument over the answer to a problem in physics means physics is invalid.

The very argument could in fact be how the issues are validated for example.


So, I've asked, repeatedly, for those with view points expressed in their statements, such as whether THEY believe something, personally, and typically get no answer at all, or, a paste of a biblical passage, as about none of the theists here seem to want to say what they believe personally, except for blanket statements about the bible, etc.

I HAVE said what I personally believe, a few times....when asked.

I quote ME though, as, I'm the one with MY beliefs.




So, if you want to have a dialogue about what you believe, I am all for it.

Just expect to the specifics of what you say to be what I will in turn address.


The rewards for this interaction, for me at least, are that I make sure my mind is open, as if you were to make a valid point, it would be noted, thought about, and, as always, followed as a line of reasoning to see where it would take me.

The idea of discovery that you were RIGHT, and that there IS a loving and benign god, would be WONDERFUL!


I can't lose essentially, as if I am right about there not being a god, I break even...no harm done....but, if I am WRONG, then I will be as devout as anyone, as I do not stick with ideas that don't work...and if you convince me there is a god...I am on board 100%.




It is not your job per se to DO that, for me. It would be something you either wanted to do, or not. I don't hold you responsible for "my salvation", as, thus far, its not on my radar as something you could do anyway...as no arguments have been defensible thus far.

To "save" a logical person, speaking personally, you would need to use logic to sway me towards your position. When you ONLY use flawed logic, such that the conclusion you were going for doesn't logically follow, its convincing that your position has zero support, logically. IE: If there WAS a decent point, why has no one ever actually used THAT, instead of all the illogical, flawed arguments?


Not everyone is logical though, and, statistically, its somewhat rare, in a true form, in that most of the human race CAN be fooled by flawed arguments, as they don't RECOGNIZE the flaws.

Emotional people who tend to have opinions based upon what they internally respond to, emotionally, are the easiest to fool, as they can be easily manipulated to believe what they want to believe.


For example, people tend to under/overestimate the risks involved in certain situations, due to emotions.

A common example is that humans tend to act as though the severity/gravity of an outcome changes its likelihood.


People will run out to buy lottery tickets when the payout is very high...forgetting that their actual odds of getting anything is (marginally) better when the payout is low, and fewer OTHER people are buying tickets.

People would buy flight insurance in case their plane crashes, but not have life insurance in case their car crashes.


The more heinous a crime, the more likely they perceive the defendant as guilty.


The more they PREFER an outcome, the more likely they believe that outcome to be correct.

IE: Why would you want to believe in there being no afterlife? Don't you want to have something after all this? (Arguing you should believe an outcome is CORRECT because its a preferable outcome)


And so forth.


Very few people who really understand statistics buy lottery tickets. Its essentially a tax on those who suck at math.


As long as SOMEONE wins, they can then rationalize that it COULD be them, because THAT is a desired outcome, and, therefore, re-prioritized as more possible than it really is.


Anyway, that's how I see things.

If someone, any one, wants to find some REAL argument, a valid argument, please, for the love of god, present it.



If no one can think of, or find, a valid argument, I would then ask, why not?


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Old 02-22-2015, 07:50 PM #5107
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This is what religion promotes: Too Young to Wed, by Stephanie Sinclair - Album on Imgur

Last edited by ped; 02-23-2015 at 06:38 AM. Reason: Keep the vids/pics/gifs to a minimum please.
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Old 02-22-2015, 08:14 PM #5108
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I think its what the religion allows rather than promotes per se.

Its more a cultural thing that predates the involved religions...and the religions have traditionally looked the other way.

For example, if the religion demands "a virgin", a popular fundamentalist requirement, it doesn't say the age...just that she's a virgin.

If they have to grab them at 5 years of age, for example, to avoid their already being devirginized in that society - well, that's their response.

If the religion required virgins, but the culture didn't rape babies, a girl might reach puberty w/o having been already raped by family members, etc.

So the religion set up conditions, in that culture, that lead to child brides, w/o REQUIRING child brides.




For myself, I think if I were to have a religion, and it were to have rules of conduct, I might add that rape is a real no no too, perhaps even ranking it higher than, say, coveting.


Of course, if I were a typical bronze aged man, raised in a culture that didn't have the word rape in it, I doubt I'd have it in there either, and I'd ALSO be more worried about someone getting my possessions than about women and children providing *** on an as desired basis. Maybe, if there is a god, he is really a misogynist....or, merely has the morals and world view of a bronze age barbarian....for whatever reason.


Its part of why only ~ 3 of the 10 commandments were used in modern laws, etc....the other 7 were too bronze aged.


Of course, if you like the iron age better, you could argue that we SHOULD follow Sharia Law, etc...which is very very close to the early versions of the modern religions, back when their fundamentalism was still fresh and raw.

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Old 02-23-2015, 03:42 PM #5109
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 02-23-2015, 03:58 PM #5110
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I think its what the religion allows rather than promotes per se.
I agree with you for the most part, but to be it appears that religion is also used as the means to perpetuate these traditions, where in the absence of religious dogma, the tradition would die out.

Were I to found a religion it would be very simple, and extremely brutal.

Simple in that it would be based on just two tenets;

1. Treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated. By extension consider actions in terms of how you would treat those you love/care about. Would you do the same thing if it it were your brother, mother, daughter, best friend? If not, than change what you are doing, or don't do it.

2. Do no harm. Even if you feel that you would accept being treated in that manner, if you realize that it is harmful, don't do it.

That's it. As for whatever fantasies people want to believe in, let them. I don't care in the least, just so long as they are not imposed on others against their will.




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Old 02-24-2015, 01:05 AM #5111
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

great vid cyp, thanks for sharing. I see you must be a subscriber of his, you shared it only hours after it came into existence. you shared another of his previously. made me start to watch more of them. it seems I'm not the only one who thinks doublethink is appropriate and applies, thus I feel pretty vindicated for makeing the connection on my own. I'm not even formally educated like this guy is.



this one is superb as well, and highlights a concept that had been forming in my mind. he does all the work for me. this is what I mean when I say I strive for consistency

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Old 02-24-2015, 04:47 AM #5112
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So many good ideas, thoughts, expressing of the mind. There is something to be said for religion and the surrendering to God through such belief systems, there is something to be said for abandoning the idea of a personal God or any "God" at all, there is something to be said for being spiritual without being religious, there is something to be said for being neither religious or spiritual, there is something to be said for being without all these things, alone in the world or at one with the world. All of these things have their own rewards and perhaps, punishments.

One thing though, regardless of your own way of life, way of thinking or living, we are all experiencing and to experience what ever it is we each do, as we will, is the most important thing of all, me thinks...
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Old 02-24-2015, 11:28 AM #5113
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
great vid cyp, thanks for sharing. I see you must be a subscriber of his, you shared it only hours after it came into existence. you shared another of his previously. made me start to watch more of them. it seems I'm not the only one who thinks doublethink is appropriate and applies, thus I feel pretty vindicated for makeing the connection on my own. I'm not even formally educated like this guy is.



this one is superb as well, and highlights a concept that had been forming in my mind. he does all the work for me. this is what I mean when I say I strive for consistency





I think the guy who's voice is narrating these vids is also known as potholer54.

He's got to have one of the calmest voices on youtube. As a divinity student who studied the bible until he realized the truth about it, and became an atheist, he has a very nice perspective on how it all works.

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Old 02-24-2015, 01:09 PM #5114
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think the guy who's voice is narrating these vids is also known as potholer54.

He's got to have one of the calmest voices on youtube. As a divinity student who studied the bible until he realized the truth about it, and became an atheist, he has a very nice perspective on how it all works.
Nay sir, you don't have the truth. You just have faith.
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Old 02-24-2015, 02:13 PM #5115
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

no, potholer54 has a british accent. but yeah his vids are good too. he has his own channel, ive shared a few of his vids

Duke, projecting religious problems on atheists to try and level the playing field is a lame tactic, we all know it is not true. not sure how many times we must explain it takes no faith to be an atheist, not to mention that many like myself are also apistevists, who not only lack faith but reject it as unnecessary and the most dishonest position to hold
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Old 02-24-2015, 06:23 PM #5116
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Nay sir, you don't have the truth. You just have faith.
So the two are mutually exclusive then?

I see.

I guess that explains why he HAD FAITH, and, had to give it up when he found the TRUTH.


Conversely, if willing to give up the truth, one could have faith instead.




I'm not sure I agree with what you are essentially saying in of itself though.

If faith can mean, perhaps broadening the context that you meant, strength of conviction in a belief without any verifiable evidence to support it...

It is theoretically possible to be right, even if you don't know why.

IE: Even a stopped clock can be exactly correct twice a day.


If by faith you mean the narrower context of YOUR PERSONAL belief being supported, without any verifiable evidence, then, I'm not sure if your clock is stopped or not, but, the evidence indicates its not stopped, and, the indicated time will be unlikely to be accurate.

For example, there are faithful Muslims. They have very strong faith, and they actively defend it. Is THEIR faith less valid than YOUR PERSONAL faith?

What about those with THEIR faith in a different branch or sect of Christianity? Is THEIR faith less valid than YOUR faith?


What about a native American, and HIS PERSONAL faith? Is YOUR PERSONAL faith more valid than his?


Do you BASE THAT OPINION on anything that would not have an equivalent basis in THEIR faith?



ALL of the "Faiths" say, yes, but only MY BOOK is correct....the other books are wrong.


IE: MY clock is dead on, those other clocks are inaccurate.






So, I'm not saying YOU need to change what YOU believe. I AM saying that you can use this opportunity to either say you believe what you believe for no reason at all other than its what you were taught...as is your right....

...or list the reasons why your faith is the only possible true faith, and the other faiths are not valid, and, are not possible, using verifiable evidence (IE: You can't use your book as a reference, as that's an obviously biased source). You also cannot just say, well I believe in Jesus and they don't, as belief is Jesus would then be part of what you'd need to prove they don't have an equivalent to, and simply circle in a spiral about which past prophet is more valid, and much more involved proof certainly...unless you are willing to evidentially (Verifiable) support your contention.


Start with Catholicism....as that should be an easy one to compare other Christian sects to.

State what YOU believe, based upon YOUR FAITH....and, compare it to what in Catholicism, would make Catholicism a faith in something, that could not be potentially valid....IE: What invalidates Catholicism? (That is addressed in your faith)

If you ARE Catholic, compare it to Protestantism as your starting point.

If you freely chose your faith, and did not simply believe what you were taught, you must have researched other potential faiths to find the one that YOU PERSONALLY believed in...and, therefore, should find this exercise quite simple...and, your reasons for being born again, or a Buddhist, etc, should be quite clear to you.

If your faith is more valid, and you prove it, then I will have to look at it more closely.



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Old 02-24-2015, 06:58 PM #5117
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
no, potholer54 has a british accent. but yeah his vids are good too. he has his own channel, ive shared a few of his vids

Duke, projecting religious problems on atheists to try and level the playing field is a lame tactic, we all know it is not true. not sure how many times we must explain it takes no faith to be an atheist, not to mention that many like myself are also apistevists, who not only lack faith but reject it as unnecessary and the most dishonest position to hold
I only consider it dishonest if the "believer" DOESN'T believe it.

It might be INTELLECTUALLY dishonest to use a flawed argument, but, to me, if a person truly believes in god, and they act accordingly, that's merely being wrong, not dishonest.

More like a weatherman who does his calculations, and declares tomorrow will be partly cloudy...and, then, the next day, you have to shovel 6" of partly cloudy.

He didn't LIE, even though his statement was false...he was simply WRONG.


If a person truly believes, but uses an argument they know is flawed, instead of one that is valid...then, they are truly dishonest as well. This is where a lot of the faith based dishonesty can come from, as there are no valid arguments, at least none ever made in the history or religion...so, ALL of the arguments are intellectually invalid. At least so far.








Now, guys like Ken Hovind and his ilk who spoke of being devout and worshiping god and pretending to be a force for good, while raking in money from fleeced flock members to the point where they (Hovind, not the flocks he fleeced) end up in jail, etc...

ARE dishonest, and, like a cop on the take, its ESPECIALLY dishonest when one is so insistent about THEIR WAY being righteous, while knowing it is NOT. Society tends to expect more from those with a high moral ground. Its more of a betrayal of trust when the liar was in a position of authority, either civil or moral.

The evangelicals caught planting audience members to make it look like they "faith healed them", inciting violence and intolerance towards gays and later having their OWN gay romances exposed, preaching about fidelity while banging the congregation, taking vows of celibacy then raping children, and so forth....all are dishonest.


People who quote SOME passages from a book as "Gospel", because they support their world view, but ignore the passages that do NOT support their world view, are AT LEAST intellectually dishonest...and, dishonest TO THEMSELVES if they cannot consider their OWN sources' validity.

If they consider the validity, find a conflict, and then ignore it, and espouse their beliefs even though they KNOW that their basis is unsupported, then they are morally dishonest as well.

So, the "Professional" advocates of the faiths, the one's who make a living spreading the lies and superstitions, tend to have the MOST vested interest in maintaining the ignorance of the flock to be fleeced.

And, coincidentally, they seem to be the one faith based group that seems to get caught with their proverbial pants around their proverbial ankles, despite prodigious pedantic promulgation of proverbs, more often than not...when they are exposed as liars and cheaters and charlatans.

The leaders being liars cheats and charlatans, despite supposedly being the shining examples of the faiths they represent...is not proof that their cause is wrong, but, it does call into question the qualifications of those teaching it.

To me at least, these are the MOST egregious examples of faith based dishonesty.


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Old 02-24-2015, 07:16 PM #5118
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 02-24-2015, 07:39 PM #5119
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I watched the first video of his that Cyp posted and a few small parts of the second, I never really got a "wow" moment like I hoped to see. There's some intelligent stuff in there but largely he's just picking apart analogies that are either flawed or stretching them beyond their intentions. (Which is BTW why I dislike about 98% of analogies I see ppl use)


@Teej
Quote:
I'm not sure I agree with what you are essentially saying in of itself though.
I'm saying your atheism is based on faith, just like the religions you condemn.
Science is a Liar Sometimes - Video
The vid is just for fun, and maybe has a mild point to make, and I will get to posting validation of my faith as I have the time to.
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Old 02-24-2015, 08:16 PM #5120
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I watched the first video of his that Cyp posted and a few small parts of the second, I never really got a "wow" moment like I hoped to see. There's some intelligent stuff in there but largely he's just picking apart analogies that are either flawed or stretching them beyond their intentions. (Which is BTW why I dislike about 98% of analogies I see ppl use)


@Teej


I'm saying your atheism is based on faith, just like the religions you condemn.
Science is a Liar Sometimes - Video
The vid is just for fun, and maybe has a mild point to make, and I will get to posting validation of my faith as I have the time to.
LOL

You link to a classic strawman argument, while asserting that the lack of belief in something is a faith?

IE: Aristotle was a scientist, and, was wrong, therefore scientists are wrong?


Science doesn't teach us to accept finding on faith. There are experiments to prove concepts, proof of concept, and, reviews.

Gravity, for example, is one of science's theories.

Its very well understood as far as its existence, even though we might not understand everything about it. There is enough evidence of gravity's existence, that it qualifies as a valid theory.

If you want to say that the people who didn't do the experiments are accepting the scientists theories based upon faith, that's a contortion of what faith means.

IE: Reviewing a study and deciding that it makes sense based upon what you already know, is not accepting it on faith. Understanding some basic scientific principles, can explain a lot of phenomena. Even if you don't know how to make a television from scratch, you do know that they exist, and, have some evidence to support that belief.

If an idea or belief can be used to predict things, for example, you believe that time and space are related, and that the faster an object is traveling, the more impact that will have upon relative time for other objects its traveling relative to...then, you should be able to predict what the time difference would be, based upon that speed.

If you find that there's a difference, but not the one you predicted, then you know you need to go back to the drawing board, take into account your error and its implications, and try again.

If the time difference IS what you predicted it would be, then, that validates your hypothesis, and, you can now use that formula or calculation, etc, to make other predictions.

So, you might have a GPS in your car or in your phone, etc...but, someone had to do the math to make sure that the time difference for the orbiting satellites corrected for that time difference.

Your GPS works, because all a GPS is doing is receiving a time signal from satellites, and triangulating its position based upon their RELATIVE times they sent. IE: The satellites will all be sending a DIFFERENT TIME...off by mere teeny fractions of a second, and that difference tells your GPS where it is.

Obviously, it works. Aristotle was a smart guy, no question, but, satellites were way over his head.

So, the theory of relativity (Einstein was a smart guy too...) got a boost when GPS worked for example....and when Hiroshima vaporized, etc.

HOW DID SCIENTISTS KNOW THOSE THINGS WOULD WORK?

Did they LIE about how they worked?

Or, did the devices work because they were based upon the scientific method?


Was Einstein INFALLIBLE? No, of course not...he was just a guy with a wild hair cut and some earth shattering insights into how the universe worked.

He was WRONG about somethings, just as any good scientist might be when breaking new ground. Its a process.

But, the correct stuff was able to be supported.

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