Old 02-19-2015, 10:35 PM #5073
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Mr Duke's interpretation is vastly different from Mr Astro's, Mr Squared's, and Mr Bro's. But his is clearly the correct one. Because his beliefs are based on the bible. Because he said so. And yet...

Mr Astro's interpretation is vastly different from Mr Duke's, Mr Squared's, and Mr Bro's. But his is clearly the correct one. Because his beliefs are based on the bible. Because he said so. And yet...

Mr Squared's interpretation is vastly different from Mr Astro's, Mr Duke's, and Mr Bro's. But his is clearly the correct one. Because his beliefs are based on the bible. Because he said so. And yet...

Mr Bro's interpretation is vastly different from Mr Astro's, Mr Duke's, and Mr Squared's. But his is clearly the correct one. Because his beliefs are based on the bible. Because he said so.

I thought I explained this already, yes 3 are incorrect.

Alan


Yes, Alan, you are correct, you did explain that the other 3 were wrong. It was actually quite clear, and, in fact, Cy was stating that exact sentiment.

He was also simultaneously pointing out that the other three who you so clearly identified as being wrong, for some bizarre reason, do not believe that THEY are individually wrong. They actually think that THEY are right!

Can you BELIEVE that? Its just crazy what people will say or believe....I hear you loud and clear about them.




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Old 02-19-2015, 10:45 PM #5074
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
You know Muhammad took some Judaism and Christianity and some pagan moon goddess worship and mixed them and spun it and out popped Islam. The three major religions in the region at the time, and that didn't work out so good in my opinion.

Alan
Actually, there's no "Pagan Moon Goddess Worship" in Islam.

Its pretty must the same fundamentalist religion as Christianity and Judaism.

The moon goddess crap was all made up by Christians to discredit Islam and make it seem less valid. It all started because "Allah" sounds a bit like a name of a pagan moon goddess....so, they ran with it. (Allah also sounds like what "GOD" was referred to back then, by Jews for example, and is in fact a derivation of the hebrew word for god)

The only structural difference between the 3 religions and their messiah figures is that Christians say its Jesus, Islam says Jesus was OK, but not a messiah, and that its all about Mohammed...and the Jews say no one showed up yet, but when he does, OY VEY!!!!


If you read the rest of the stuff, for all three, they all say love everyone and be nice and don't steal, cheat, lie, murder, etc. Then, they add a bunch of other stuff that dilutes it all until its about the trappings and not the spirituality....or who's god can beat who's...what you can eat and wear, etc.

For some reason, the Jews don't seem to have nearly the needs the others have to make everyone the same as them....and one of THEIR guys made it all the way to the top on Christianity, and he got a solid honorable mention in Islam, how weird is that?

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Old 02-19-2015, 10:54 PM #5075
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Its pretty must the same fundamentalist religion as Christianity and Judaism.
Sorry but you're wrong!
Islam is not the same fundamentalist religion as Christianity.

Any religion the denies that Jesus is the Son of God, has the wrong understanding of who Jesus really is.

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“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
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Old 02-19-2015, 11:00 PM #5076
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Sorry but you're wrong!
Islam is not the same fundamentalist religion as Christianity.

Any religion the denies that Jesus is the Son of God, has the wrong understanding of who Jesus really is.

The RELIGIONS say the same things. They just disagree about messiah figures.

YOU believe that they are wrong, THEY believe that YOU are wrong.

I am pretty sure they feel about as right as you do about it all.

I'm sure their beliefs are also based upon THEIR life's experiences and their interpretations of what they read, saw and felt.

So YOUR life lead to YOUR belief that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, and THEIR life lead them to believe Jesus was a Jewish PROPHET, but not the Messiah.

I hear both sides, and, well, I think you are both arguing whether mighty mouse could beat up superman, or visa versa...but, that you both feel VERY STRONGLY about who YOU think would win.





I want to hear some sort of explanation about how this demon thing works.


So far, we seem to have angels who used to be people....so, if you die, you can go to heaven and be an angel, with the caveat that I can't tell if everyone in heaven is an angel, or just the super duper souls, etc....

..or perhaps, angels are immortal beings that live in heaven, and, after that, they seem to be able to come back to earth to do stuff from time to time. The Angel of Death, or Clarence from its a Wonderful Life, etc.


Satan is reported as a "Fallen Angel". That means, obviously, that he used to be an angel. That begs the question as to if he used to be a person, or, are angels not ex-people?


Satan is supposed to be both sentenced to hell, and, in charge of it...and, he is blamed for apparently leaving hell to come to earth to do Las Vegas magic shows, comfort the bereaved at afterlife shows, and cause all sorts of havoc.

He is ALSO, in addition to the above duties, supposed to be locked in immortal combat with god, for possession of all on earth.


So, god and satan knew each other, and had a falling out...despite god's infinite wisdom, he could not convince an ANGEL that he was worth following?

What did that angel know that we don't know? HE KNEW GOD, and rejected him....what did he know about god?

He was an ANGEL. What was there IN HEAVEN that turned him against god? Shouldn't heaven be a wonderful place you wouldn't want to leave? Shouldn't KNOWING GOD PERSONALLY be a wonderful, inspiring experience?

IF god is all powerful and all knowing, and, you were an ANGEL, you would know if that's true. You would NOT think that YOU could BEAT him in a war for possession of anything, let alone EVERYONE.

WHY would satan THINK he could WIN?


IF god is who he's supposed to be, satan would KNOW satan could not win. That means either satan is not who he's made out to be, or, god isn't.


And are demons supposed to be souls cast into hell, or, even more immortal deities, or does the torture in eternal hell fire, again, actually involve trips to Las Vegas and comforting the bereaved after the deaths of loved ones?


Its confusing when they are ALL supposed to be tortured for all eternity in eternal hell fire, and, instead, they frolic about, pretending to be dead loved ones, helping magicians with their acts, making certain people say certain things, and having a grand old time.



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Old 02-20-2015, 01:00 AM #5077
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Islam is not the same fundamentalist religion as Christianity.
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Actually, there's no "Pagan Moon Goddess Worship" in Islam.
I think he was alluding to many of Islam's religious schedules and holy days being based on the lunar cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Any religion the denies that Jesus is the Son of God, has the wrong understanding of who Jesus really is.
Any religion that denies that Muhammad is the messenger of God has the wrong understanding of who Muhammad really is.

Any religion that denies the Torah as the sole works of God has the wrong understanding of what the Torah is.
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Old 02-20-2015, 01:13 AM #5078
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions



I think he was alluding to many of Islam's religious schedules and holy days being based on the lunar cycle.



Any religion that denies that Muhammad is the messenger of God has the wrong understanding of who Muhammad really is.

Any religion that denies the Torah as the sole works of God has the wrong understanding of what the Torah is.
No, its the whacko moon goddess crap the christians made up....there's a whole back story about it.

Lunar cycles are part of many many calendars, but a moon goddess is not the same thing as a lunar calendar.



There's a new magazine coming out that is advertised as promoting Islam and educating the general public about Mohammed. I think its in Europe now. Its trying to correct a lot of the incorrect stereotypes and fill in a lot of blanks.

The editor, in a radio interview, mentioned that if he wants to have a picture of Mohamed in the magazine, he'd do it....but did say he actually doesn't know what Mohamed looked like, as there were no actual pictures of him.

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Old 02-20-2015, 01:18 AM #5079
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think this thread is a disruption to the forum and should be moved to a social group.
Its hardly disruptive. Any of the good behaved contributors of this thread keep the feelings in this thread to only this thread and not anywhere else on the forum.

Its a good thread. Its interesting (at least to me) to see how other people see the world. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I would be no better than those I dislike if I thought my way of thinking was the only correct way.

Plus its good to keep my reasoning and debate skills sharp.
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Old 02-20-2015, 01:55 AM #5080
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We can argue how spirits and demons work in the world but the message of the gospel is the same.

Jesus was not a mere man who became God only later, in Jesus, God took on humanity in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Within a short decade or two, the early Christians understood that Jesus' identity was intrinsic to the identity of Israel's God. The rapid rise of Christianity and the fact that large numbers of Christians were prepared to die for their faith are best accounted by the historical reality of the resurrection of Jesus, not faith in hallucinatory visions of Jesus as risen. This is true especially when one considers that there is no real Jewish precedent to arrive at these conclusions apart from genuine impetus. The short interval between Jesus' crucifixion and documented worship of Jesus as divine is best explained by Jesus' own claim and actions pointing to deity prior to his violent cross-death and then his resurrection.
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Old 02-20-2015, 01:55 AM #5081
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
Its hardly disruptive. Any of the good behaved contributors of this thread keep the feelings in this thread to only this thread and not anywhere else on the forum.

Its a good thread. Its interesting (at least to me) to see how other people see the world. I don't agree with a lot of it, but I would be no better than those I dislike if I thought my way of thinking was the only correct way.

Plus its good to keep my reasoning and debate skills sharp.
Totally agree and a +Rep, for you, from me.

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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:54 AM #5082
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
We can argue how spirits and demons work in the world but the message of the gospel is the same.

Jesus was not a mere man who became God only later, in Jesus, God took on humanity in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Within a short decade or two, the early Christians understood that Jesus' identity was intrinsic to the identity of Israel's God. The rapid rise of Christianity and the fact that large numbers of Christians were prepared to die for their faith are best accounted by the historical reality of the resurrection of Jesus, not faith in hallucinatory visions of Jesus as risen. This is true especially when one considers that there is no real Jewish precedent to arrive at these conclusions apart from genuine impetus. The short interval between Jesus' crucifixion and documented worship of Jesus as divine is best explained by Jesus' own claim and actions pointing to deity prior to his violent cross-death and then his resurrection.
What you are saying as if it were a proven fact, was not even agreed upon by the time of the First Counsel of Nicaea, about 300 years AFTER Jesus. They DISAGREED as to the facts.

You refer to the "historical reality of the resurrection of Jesus", but, there is no historical evidence, at all, that this occurred...yet you use this to base another point upon.

For example, the town of Nazareth didn't exist yet....so Jesus wasn't from it. He was a member of a Zealous Jewish Rebel Group that sounded similar to that, and, as the bible was written long after the purported events, editing was done to try to make sense of what was written, and what they knew at the time...combined with the need to change him from a rebel fighter to a peacenik to get authority from the rulers of the time.




As for all of these supposed facts, even within the Church, at the TIME - They argued. One side gained a majority, and, won, the other side was variously excommunicated/banished, and all of their known (at the time) records and writing and research that supported their position was burned by the winners.

There was almost nothing from the early AD period to confirm what you are saying was instant...it was hundreds of years later before what Christianity was to be was hammered out....at the order of Emperor Constantine.


I'm unclear as to what this means btw:

This is true especially when one considers that there is no real Jewish precedent to arrive at these conclusions apart from genuine impetus.


The Jewish "precedent" is the entire concept that a Messiah will come, and, that's what the prophesies Jesus was supposed to fill were relative to...so, Jesus was ENTIRELY within a Jewish precedent.

What 'genuine impetus" refers to, within the above context, doesn't seem to be supported by any valid points made?

It seems to be referring to the "instant" rise of Christianity...being somehow related to the idea that happening fast (which it didn't) support it being real?

This might be analogous to the "instant" rise of the bull worship that the Israelites (Jews again...) practiced in the time it took Moses to go up and down the mountain to get the 10 commandments...implying that we should worship bulls?

Or the 1969 Mets?


Or that Aliens/The Raptures are coming and we don't need our worldly possessions or our corporeal bodies? MILLIONS of people QUICKLY believed in THOSE things and acted, some dying for their beliefs. They were wrong BTW.


So if a guy can convince modern people with internet access and access to libraries, etc...that they should all do something for religious reasons, such that they act quickly and with purpose to achieve that objective based upon their beliefs...imagine how easy it was for a guy to do that to simple bronze age barbarians/iron age peasants, etc?

These were people to whom witches were a real thing...and, it made sense to THEM to have a test where they were tied up and thrown into a river, etc... and, if they were a witch, they would not drown, so, they were guilty, and, could be burned...but, if they sank and drowned, then they were innocent.

THIS is the level of reasoning and superstition that was EASILY manipulated by ANYONE of the period with half a brain. Fooling dumb people is not proof of divinity.


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Old 02-20-2015, 11:08 AM #5083
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
We can argue how spirits and demons work in the world but the message of the gospel is the same.
No one ever seems to explain this though....and, as it is part of the gospel, I think it needs explaining.

IE: The Message of the gospel says Satan, and his demons, will do horrible things to you after you die, UNLESS you "freely choose Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior".

YET, Christians say these demons are busy doing card tricks to entertain people, and, pretending to be passed loved ones to comfort the bereaved, etc...

So, which is it?

Do you think RB is correct about the card tricks and so forth?

Or, do you have a DIFFERENT interpretation of the bible than he does?






Explain what an Angel is, what a demon is, who Satan is?

How does one become these things, or, did they always exist? Can they die? Can god make them appear and disappear?

If they are evil, and hurt people who are still alive too (They are blamed for bad things that happen on earth), why did god MAKE THEM?

If god DIDN'T make them, who did? Or, did they always exist?

If god didn't make them, did Satan make demons?


If Satan made demons, doesn't he have the power of creation?

Are the demons passed people who were not taken to heaven?

If they were cast into Hell, as punishment, why do they get to frolic about the earth doing Las Vegas acts and comforting the bereaved?



So - A lot of questions, and, the answers are all in the bible I'm sure, as that's the source of your knowledge about the existence of these things, and, what they do and don't do, how they came to be, etc.

Take your time, and, I will read your response with great interest. (RB - YOU'RE input is greatly appreciated, and, feel free to provide your own version of the answers too)


Again, the context of all of this is BECAUSE the gospel says that Satan and his demons are WHO tortures you for all eternity for NOT following Jesus....even though THEY don't follow him either....which, obviously, makes no sense. Therefore, as being cast into hell is the punishment for not following Jesus....but, doesn't seem to exist, what again is what happens if you DON'T follow Jesus? WHO is punishing you for it?

On the flip side, if you DO follow Jesus, you get to Heaven instead of Hell. And there's ANGELS. So, what's up with THEM too? And so forth. Just answers about the demonic side for now would be a great start though.

Last edited by Teej; 02-20-2015 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 02-20-2015, 08:20 PM #5084
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
You know Muhammad took some Judaism and Christianity and some pagan moon goddess worship and mixed them and spun it and out popped Islam. The three major religions in the region at the time, and that didn't work out so good in my opinion.

Alan
I agree, and you're not going to get any argument from me on it. Islam has been a disaster imo, and it is the religion that at present is holding the world back the most.

Just wish you would view Christianity with that same level objectivity.
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:02 AM #5085
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The first council of Nicaea didn't question the fact that Jesus rose from the dead or that he was divine. Historically Jesus ' resurrection can no more be proven than it can be disproven, but from the evidence we do have we know something extraordinary happened. I wouldn't dwell on every specific on how the spiritual interacts with the physical, not everything has been revealed to us.

1 Corinthians 13 : 12
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:08 AM #5086
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The first council of Nicaea didn't question the fact that Jesus rose from the dead or that he was divine. Historically Jesus ' resurrection can no more be proven than it can be disproven, but from the evidence we do have we know something extraordinary happened. I wouldn't dwell on every specific on how the spiritual interacts with the physical, not everything has been revealed to us.

1 Corinthians 13 : 12
actually that was the major debate, whether he was god or not. btw, if he was god, then he was never really dead, therfore was not a sacrifice. if you can raise yourself from the dead, you arent dead

wht would christ say none come to the father but through him if he is the father also? doesnt make sense. why kneel and pray to god for guidance on what to do about stoning the adultress if you are god? why say you are come to uphold the law, and say that its easier for all existence to perish than the law not be fulfilled, then break the law?
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:27 AM #5087
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Debating on whether he was on the same level as God or just below God is not the same debate as questioning the divinity or resurrection.
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:50 AM #5088
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Not exactly on topic, but I felt the need to share this. It makes leaps of "logic" on the level of Illuminati conspiracy theorists.
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