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Old 02-17-2015, 01:27 AM #4993
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post


The Bible was written by forty different authors oven many centuries, all inspired by God, to write down what He has commanded.
All are in harmony and all point to the Saviour, Jesus.
Just look at all the prophecies in the Old Testament detailing and telling us what the Messiah would be and what He would do and how it will be done.
All you have to do is read the whole Book and it's all there.



Andrew


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LOL

40?

WAAAY more than that Sir.



The King James Bible ALONE had more authors than that.

For the KJB alone, there were six companies, divided up by biblical section.

The First Westminster Company was responsible for Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings and II kings.

Lancelot Andrews was Director.

Some of the better known biblical scholars of the time in his company were Hadrian Saravia, Richard Clarke, John Layfield, Robert Tigue, Geoffrey King, Richard Thompson, William Bedwell, and Francis Burleigh.


The First Cambridge Company was responsible for I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs.

Edward Lively was Director.

Some of the better known biblical scholars in his company were John Richardson, Laurence Chaderton, Roger Andrews, Thomas Harrison, Robert Spaulding, Andrew Bing, and Francis Dillingham.


The First Oxford Company was responsible for Isaih, Jerimiah, Lamentations, Ezekial, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai and Malachi.

The Director was John Harding.

The better known scholars in his company were John Reynolds, Thomas Holland, Richard Kilby, Miles Smith, Richard Brett, and Richard Fairclough.

And so on and so forth.

They all labored mightily, overcoming differences in opinion as to what to say and how to say it...producing some of what has been described as the most powerful and majestic biblical prose ever written. It was a masterwork in of itself, but, for political reasons, it was not able to be properly released when written, undergoing approximately 24,000 versions, and, finally becoming unofficially adopted hundreds of years later. Its adoption was a testament to its ability to unite people, and, its authoritarian orientation that appealed to governments facing a divided populace.

Many of those in the bible, who's passages are now part of it, were not there when the events happened, and, were added by reading earlier accounts, and essentially adding themselves to the scenes. biblical scholars have seen this, and its in official church documents....along with many many many earlier drafts of the bible.

Anachronisms such as language not in use at the original time, cities that didn't exist yet, etc, litter the bible...providing glimpses into the authorship and the involved time lines.

They had not for example, even decided if Jesus was a man, a temporary version of a man who was a god, second to god, or a form of god, in the earliest itinerations.

The drafts reflect the struggles to settle important points such as that.

So, there's no shortage of authors. There's the Sumerians for example, who essentially wrote almost all of the biblical stories, miracles, etc. These were then cut and pasted almost verbatim, or at best about the way a HS kid might edit/paraphrase some googled reference for a paper, etc.

There's almost nothing that doesn't appear in the Sumerian writings earlier than it does in the biblical writings.

And so forth.

Every miracle, every story, about Jesus, was predated by the same stories earlier in history...only attributed to others, instead of to Jesus. Virgin births, wise men following stars, died and resurrected, walking on water, healing the sick, water to wine, loaves, and so on and so forth...all done before.

Same with the flood, the whale, talking snakes, father's sacrificing their sons, the tower of babel, the Garden of Eden, and so on and so forth, the bible regurgitates the old myths, with NOTHING original...except the original SIN. They did add that more definitively after the Nicene Council...as Emperor Constantine demanded that they work out some details that would allow his subjects to be more easily ruled/subjugated, etc...saying he'd convert to Catholicism if he liked how it all played out.



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Old 02-17-2015, 01:36 AM #4994
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And yet Teej, there are biblical scholars that know all that you know and still believe. What of them?
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Old 02-17-2015, 01:39 AM #4995
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Are you suggesting that history ceases to be history and becomes only fiction after enough time passes? The books of Harry Potter are works of fiction, they are not history.

Alan
No, I'm merely suggesting that there is truth to be found in works of fiction, and as there is no proof to be found for the bible (since it is not a historical record, and physical evidence is usually at odds with biblical accounts) the books of Harry Potter hold equal merit.

Also given her charitable donations, the Author arguably has done more good for the world in our time, than Jesus, had he existed, did in his.
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Old 02-17-2015, 01:43 AM #4996
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Are you suggesting that history ceases to be history and becomes only fiction after enough time passes? The books of Harry Potter are works of fiction, they are not history.

Alan
LOL

Really?

History is littered with mythology. The earliest history WAS orally transmitted. Essentially no one was literate in the earliest times, so, a grandfather would tell the tale of a battle he had heard from HIS grandfather, who heard it form HIS grandfather, and so forth.

I don't know if you ever listened to grandfathers talk about the past, especially the distant past that was handed down to them...but it gets embellished, edited, morals are added as wisdom dictates, or at least what passes for wisdom in the appropriate time period, etc.

IE: I had two relatives who were at Pearl Harbor. I heard them tell about it when I was a young boy. Then again as an older boy. And more times as I also aged.

By the time they died, they'd gone from having run for their lives to helping others to manning guns, to shooting down zeros, and, for some strange reason, both separately told of treading water while saluting the flag...not sure how that got in there, but BOTH said they did that same thing, w/o hearing the other one say it as far as I knew at least. (It is possible though that they spoke with each other from time to time I guess...)

So, they either both gradually needed to up the entertainment value to the listening whippersnappers, and/or out do each other.

It was ALWAYS "True" though.

History, when verbally transmitted, is not exactly reliable. Even "who won" changes with time. By the time the stories are written down, and become "written history", they may already be mythology more than actual history.

Once literary abilities were more common, events were recorded slightly more accurately, but, again, the winners get to write the histories, and, the loser's stories are lost to the sands of time's erasers/editors, etc.

The Church burned drafts that didn't fit with the final decisions reached for the bible releases for example. No dissenting opinions could be allowed if the "breathed words" were to be "true".

Etc.
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Old 02-17-2015, 03:48 AM #4997
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And yet Teej, there are biblical scholars that know all that you know and still believe. What of them?
Compartmentalization
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:10 AM #4998
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The bible wasn't transmitted orally, it was written beginning with the five books of Moses about 1500BC and ending with Revelation written by the last of the apostles "John" in about 90AD before he was released from exile on Patmos and returned to Ephesus and passed away several years later. So it was written over a period of about 1600 years. The old testament was originally written in Hebrew and translated into Greek in 3rd and 2nd centuries BC. The new testament books were written in Greek from early to late 1st century AD. The Hebrews/Jews were good at keeping records and very early on when people noticed errors in the texts of the five books of Moses they developed a method of copying text without errors, so I am reasonably confident that the Hebrew Masoretic text remains unchanged.

However regarding modern translations in English and other languages there is some truth to what you have been saying. They are filled with mistranslations, changes and deleted text, the NIV now the most widely read translation is the worst offender in this area.

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Old 02-17-2015, 04:24 AM #4999
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Unlikely and at best rare. From personal experience that's not a mental state I've known biblical scholars to have.
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:30 AM #5000
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
From personal experience that's not a mental state I've known biblical scholars to have.
This is just a slightly longer version of your "I disagree" bullshit. By definition, you don't even know what's going on in your OWN subconscious. Would you care to tell the class how you know what's going on in someone else's subconscious?
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:37 AM #5001
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Unlikely and at best rare. From personal experience that's not a mental state I've known biblical scholars to have.
If you read some exmormon stories you'll see a common theme between most of them, they at first denied the doubts that they had about their faith.
For a lot of them cognitive bias kept them believing for a long time after their initial doubts.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:26 AM #5002
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Default

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
can someone explain how original sin doesnt apply to christ but applies to everyone else?

BR ASTRO admitted "He was setting up a linage of people, from whom one day, The Messiah was to be born"

cool. we know original sin applied to all the people running up to christ, why does he get the exemption? why is the lineage important if Joseph contributed no sperm? oh wait I know it's so he had claim to the throne, but that doesnt really make sense either, again, because joseph contributed no sperm. surely Mary also descended from a line that original sin applies to, so either way, christ should have it.
Jesus was the creator of the Universe.
He is the second person of the Trinity.
He was born sinless, by Mary, a virgin, who was His biological mother (mother's blood via Placenta doesn't mix with the child's).
Joseph was not His father because God was the father.
Hence Jesus was sinless all throughout His life, even unto death.
He is the only sacrifice that can pay for your sins and mine.
Since He was sinless, death could not hold him, because the penalty of sin is death.
Hence He rose again, forever making it possible for every sinner to enter Heaven by His blood atonement.
All you have to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and believe Jesus is the Son of God and ask Him into your heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
YOUR interpretation is the only correct interpretation, naturally. Of course, all other subsets of Christianity say the same thing about their interpretation. But they're all wrong and you're right.

Hey... Would you mind repeating "interpretations of the bible that don't agree with mine are wrong" in ten different ways for us?



Fantastic
You got it, good for you.
Yes many Christian religions try to add to the Bible with extra doctrines and rules etc.
But if you just take the Bible alone you'll see the truth.
Don't need to worship Mary or the saints, don't need to go to the priest for confession.
All you're questions are answered in the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
And now a word from Christians Against Dinosaurs.

Wow. First we coexisted with dinosaurs, now their just an evil lie.
You do realise there are people who claim to have a scientific background that also believe we haven't been to the moon.
Should I tar every scientifically minded person with the same brush?



Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
How do you know they were inspired by god, and not say just... ?

Why haven't there been any updates lately? Like say to address the question of aliens?

What would you say if you were to meet a man, and he claimed to speak with divine authority?
The Book of Revelation tells us how the future will play out.
No need for updates because Jesus told us all we need to know.

Aliens are actually demonic beings masquerading as aliens to trick humanity (including the Catholic Church leaders).
Don't believe any alien or UFO phenomenon, they are demon spirits.

BTW:
The flood WAS a world wide Flood.
Only Noah and his family survived (along with the animals).

Homo***uality is a sin just like any other sin people commit.
God judged Sodom & Gomorrah because of such sin (that's why it was referred to as Sodomy.
Christians don't hate homo***uals, we hate the sin, just like we hate other sins but love the sinner because we were all sinners once (and still are) but the Blood of Jesus cleanses us of all (confessed) sin.

Andrew

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Google David Blaine. Or for that matter any number of performers out there.

You will find all kinds of superhuman achievements. Are they too, divine? If one tells you cut off your left testicle, are you going to just do it?
David Blaine and others use the power of demonic spirits to deceive the public and put doubt in your mind about Jesus.

See this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpFmxCcJks


My apology for the multiple posts, can't keep up with everyone's responses.

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but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
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Old 02-17-2015, 01:49 PM #5003
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And yet Teej, there are biblical scholars that know all that you know and still believe. What of them?
Hmmm, there are mathematicians who have made mathematical mistakes....do I still believe in math?

There are fishermen who have gone fishing and not caught anything, are there still fish?

If two carpenters make tables, and one of them wobbles, is carpentry valid? Which of them is a BETTER carpenter? What if neither of them made a straight/non-wobbly table? Does that mean that carpentry is invalid?

What if two guys who were not carpenters each made a perfect table? What does that say about carpentry?

What if a carpenter said he was a fisherman? Or a Baker? Or a Messiah?

The answer is "Nada". It doesn't matter if someone does or doesn't understand what they are doing, you look at the table. If it wobbles, humans made a mistake.








The point I was making is not whether you choose to BELIEVE or not, it was addressing the facts. If you feel that acceptance of the facts causes dissonance, and you interpret that as me saying not to believe, that's your take on it, not mine.

I never said, "and in conclusion, do not believe in a deity".


I come back to the Church, a lot, because a lot of what people say they believe, particularly what's in the bible they refer to as the word of god, was not written the way they think it was written.

IE: I am speaking about the bible, not theism.


For example, a statement above that the bible was never transmitted orally, yet, refers to when it was FIRST being written thousands of years after the events described (The Adam and Eve story for example....who was alive to write that down?)

The "Let there be light" "and it was good" who wrote that down, THEN?

WHO witnessed the creation BEFORE THERE WERE ADAM AND EVE? There are no biblical passages in where god tells adam or eve about how he created the heavens and earth, or even themselves.

Knowledge is bad...the moral of the story is that wanting knowledge is evil, and, its WHY all humans are bad from birth...and why they were cast out of paradise.

So who wrote that down, then?

No one. It was written down thousands of years after the purported dates of occurrence.

How did the writers, thousands of years after creation, FIND OUT what god did first, and what god did second, how god FELT ABOUT IT, and about talking snakes, trees of knowledge and gardens of eden?

How about every one's NAMES from back then, whether light was before or after plants or water...let alone who's spare RIB, before written language?

How do we know Cain and Abel's names? Marks? Ancient murders and motives, conversations about it?

VERBAL HISTORY. What does verbal history turn into over millennia? Mythology.

That game of "Post Office", played over thousands of years, produces some entertaining stories for sure.

Add to that "Propaganda"....the purposeful spread of what you want to become accepted facts, which, was coincidentally invented by the Catholic Church (That's what they called it before it later gained negative connotations), and you have FOCUSED MYTHOLOGY.

So, first off, even in the bible, Jesus lived and died a JEW. He said to not deviate from the old laws, not even an iota.

So, what would Jesus do? He would be a devout JEW.


What did the BIBLE say? It says that that what Jesus said and did, but, was later INTERPRETED to say that what he MEANT, was to ignore some parts of the old testament, and, to keep some parts, and that the new replaced the old, except where it didn't.

Modern Christians then take that interpretation, and, re-interpret it in light of their own personal beliefs, and, call that "Their religion".

So, every word in every bible a Christian would have as representing "Their Religion" came from the Catholic Church.

The CHURCH spent a LOT of time translating Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, etc, into Greek, Aramaic, Latin and Hebrew and back again, over and over and over again.

IE: A paper might have been possessed that was in Hebrew...and translated into Greek. The Greek might then be translated into Latin. A later scholar might then translate the Latin into Aramaic. That Aramaic version might then be translated into Hebrew.

The two Hebrew versions would then exist at the same time, but, disagree as to what happened and when, and with who...due to translation differences.

If divinely inspired, the monks should not make any "errors". If ordered to change things to please a particular ruler or current political/religious situation, the "errors" always, without exception, seemed to change things in favor of who was in charge at the time.

Now, if you're a Catholic, that would be, in a best case scenario, the POPE. He is there to tell you what god's will is. HE HAS DIVINE AUTHORITY. He is infallible. He can not be wrong, because, he is getting the dope straight from the Big Man upstairs.

So, the BIBLE is "HIS PRODUCT". You bought it. (literally, and figuratively)

No matter which christian bible you have, the CHURCH wrote it, every single word its based upon came from the church.



So, if following Jesus, you are Jewish....according to the bible's words.

If Christian, you are following the bible's interpretation by the church.

If Catholic, you are at least putting your money where your mouth is, and BELIEVING the Catholic Church's interpretation.

If christian but NOT a Catholic, you are in the odd position of saying you believe every thing the church said, but, NOT THE CHURCH...as you are rejecting them as NOT the divine authority, while, at the same time, accepting the divinity of what they said, BASED UPON THEIR DIVINE AUTHORITY.


Everything after that is just a song and dance to rationalize the above.


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Old 02-17-2015, 02:02 PM #5004
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
This is just a slightly longer version of your "I disagree" bullshit. By definition, you don't even know what's going on in your OWN subconscious. Would you care to tell the class how you know what's going on in someone else's subconscious?
There are some points I'd like to touch on before we more forward here.

1) Earlier I used the "I disagree" line, then you also used it, now you're calling it bs, seems hypocritical of you.

2) You responded to my last post with one line, implying you believe compartmentalization is a characteristic of all believing biblical scholars, you didn't specifically say this so I won't hold you to it but but this isn't something you could possibly know.

3) Now you're telling me that's it's impossible for me to know this, yet somehow you know. Either it is possible to know or is isn't, pick one. Also you're doing it again where you're trying to tell me what I think.

4) You're very cynical, condescending, and rude. Showing even an ounce of respect to you're opponents can go a long way to getting them to accept your ideas. I know your response might be something like "Christians will never change their minds and I'm rude to them to that others who are undecided will not believe" Which IMO is BS. In reference to "Pale Blue Dot" - a quote from someones opinion you might actually value.

Quote:
To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known. - Carl Sagan

@ ARG

I will look into those and check them out thank you.
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Old 02-17-2015, 02:29 PM #5005
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej, what is your problem?! Were you fucked in the ass by a priest when you were a child or what? What is the source of your extreme hatred of Christianity? You don't need to keep repeating yourself and writing a book every time. Your not going to convince any Christians with your arguments about how the bible was written and they won't convince you either. Let's just agree to disagree.

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Old 02-17-2015, 03:17 PM #5006
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Teej, what is your problem?! Were you fucked in the ass by a priest when you were a child or what? What is the source of your extreme hatred of Christianity? You don't need to keep repeating yourself and writing a book every time. Your not going to convince any Christians with your arguments about how the bible was written and they won't convince you either. Let's just agree to disagree.

Alan
LOL

So, we have a religion thread in which we don't say anything, sounds exciting and productive.





Were you anally blessed by an atheist? Why do you hate Atheism so much?


Its the same argument.



I say some facts that concern the BIBLE. YOU say that means I hate Christianity.

If you don't want to objectively examine your beliefs, that's fine, I'm used to people taking that stance on MANY issues, not just religion.

Just because I present what I think, doesn't mean I hate YOU. I LIKE YOU.

I just disagree with you about superstitious issues. You believe in magic and the supernatural, and I don't. I don't hate you for it, I just wanted to express how I felt about it.

If you cannot hear my dissenting opinion w/o thinking you are hated, I am sorry if I gave that impression.

I don't hate creationists because they think the world is 6,500 years old, I hate that they want to teach children that, which would intellectually cripple them for their entire lives.

YOU are not a creationist, you simply want to believe a particular creation myth and associated stories. I am not against that, any more than I feel the need to run over to some equatorial jungle and try to convince the natives that voodoo is psychological.

If I am in a discussion about voodoo with the natives though, say on a laser forum with a voodoo section/thread, sure, that IS THE PLACE to have that discussion.

It DOESN'T mean I hate them though.

It just means I am making an attempt to open their eyes to the superstitions they live by.

If they want to open MY eyes, to share their belief in the supernatural, that is ALSO the place to do it. I don't take that as hate either, merely ALSO them just trying to open MY eyes to their viewpoint.

If I TRULY hated someone, I would NOT be driven to give them any useful information...and if they believed something that I knew was false, I'd have no motivation to correct them.

I don't really hate anyone though. I may have flashes in the heat of a moment, but, they are temporary flashes that do not last more than a moment or two. I tend to quickly gain perspective on whatever triggered the event(s) and act accordingly.

So, again, I don't hate Christianity or Christians. I am merely trying to save them. Some are like the old lady who didn't want to cross the street, and beat the boy scout senseless. I get that, and, I ask if they want to cross. I might point out the lovely shops on the other side of the street, or that they seem to be at the intersection for SOME reason, perhaps they wanted to cross? Etc.

I do not physically drag them kicking and screaming across the street. If they don't want to cross, they don't. If they decide to, then they do.






Last edited by Teej; 02-17-2015 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:21 PM #5007
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
David Blaine and others use the power of demonic spirits to deceive the public and put doubt in your mind about Jesus.
I honestly can't decide if you're serious or trolling.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:56 PM #5008
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
David Blaine and others use the power of demonic spirits to deceive the public and put doubt in your mind about Jesus.

See this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpFmxCcJks


My apology for the multiple posts, can't keep up with everyone's responses.

Andrew
LOL

OMG

So, you didn't know its all tricks? Its a SHOW....put on by magicians.

There's NO MAGIC!

Also, there's no need for DEMONS to get magic, because there's no magic, and, no demons.

Magicians practice really hard to be able to do the tricks. The statement implying that they convinced YOU that it MUST BE magic is hilarious.

The POINT of a magic show is to create a spectacle you cannot explain...hence, it appearing "as magic". That is why they are CALLED magicians...its what they DO.

So, essentially, if you see something you can't explain, you attribute it to the supernatural, instead of considering that you simply don't know how they did the trick....

...unless you're the sort of person who simply understands that its a show, and not evidence of the supernatural...and that it was done so convincingly, that you simply do not understand how they did it, but, you still KNOW that they tricked you.

I can watch a show and understand that its a show, and still be amazed by how well its done, and how inconceivable it was to DO IT. I can maintain that dissonance between what I saw, the lack of explanation, and, acceptance of that lack of explanation...while acknowledging that I saw something impossible.

I do have a little inside info though, as I have a brother who is a lighting technician, and, well, the magicians are VERY CLEVER fellows. They spend a LOT of time designing and perfecting magic tricks.

They are TRICKS though, every single one of them. If you are saying that you didn't know that, and that you thought they used demons to perform REAL MAGIC, I am flabbergasted.


I actually cannot believe that you are that gullible, so, I will assume that you were joking.

Please, please tell me you're joking?




PS - Satan is real, and, doing card tricks to steal souls?

Some men have the power of Satan at their control, can levitate themselves and others, and objects, make entire buildings disappear, and, they use that satanic power to make a living as a MAGICIAN?

It sounds like a rewrite of say a Superman comic, where instead of using his powers to fight for truth, justice, and the 'Merican Way, he just gets a job as a pizza delivery guy.


Last edited by Teej; 02-17-2015 at 05:25 PM.
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