Old 02-12-2015, 06:00 PM #4945
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Again, which Christian doctrine are you referring to?


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Old 02-12-2015, 06:18 PM #4946
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

to whom are you directing the question?
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:21 PM #4947
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You or IE in this case.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:30 PM #4948
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Wasn't it the Catholics involved in the crusades? Swords aside, how about murder in the name of Christ and saving the victim's soul? Who was responsible for the Inquisition? Who burned witches in Salem? Which Christians are the kind that murder abortion doctors?
What about the Christian militia anti-Balaka currently murdering Muslims in Africa? Do you know which sect they represent?

The point (pun intended) being that zeal usually isnt dangerous until doctrine is introduced, be it christian, muslim, or other.



I take that back. Zeal can be very dangerous. I read recently that someone who had great zeal for base jumping died (of instant deceleration) after their parachute failed to open due to not being properly packed. They jumped off of a cell tower or something.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:50 PM #4949
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You're just pointing out bad things that people who claimed a religious affiliation did. You seem to be unable to produce any Christian principles or body of principles that support those people's actions. Their actions were "zeal" without "doctrine".
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:08 PM #4950
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

These weren't just people, these were the goddamned (literally should *god* as you believe in him exist) who represent the religion at large.

You want an example? OK.

What about say the POPE doesn't represent Christianity?

(You know the guy that advocates for freedom of speech but then says that religion can not be disparaged, and violence is an acceptable answer, while commenting on the murder of a cartoonist, by a religious zealot.)

What about the crusades did no represent the forceful imposition of church doctrine? That happened LOOOOONG after the new testament btw.

How many examples of brutality need be brought up?

How many contradictions?

Interesting bit of reading;

The Bible and violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New Testament Cruelty

Christianity and violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://spencerwatch.com/2011/05/22/t...80%9D-cop-out/

What it seems to always boil down to: http://i.imgur.com/MYG9BCk.webm

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Old 02-12-2015, 07:33 PM #4951
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
What about the crusades did no represent the forceful imposition of church doctrine?

What it seems to always boil down to: http://i.imgur.com/MYG9BCk.webm
The forceful part. Why don't you dig up something Jesus taught that supports the crusades to make your point and then tell me Christianity is at fault.

It's hard not to take some of the images/gifs you post as insulting, IE. I don't like to reciprocate but just to show the game can be play both ways again.

http://adam4d.com/comics/2013-05-20-...t%20garage.png
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Old 02-12-2015, 08:02 PM #4952
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The forceful part. Why don't you dig up something Jesus taught that supports the crusades to make your point and then tell me Christianity is at fault.
Why don't you dig up what Jesus actually taught that was not written by the very church? I mean you claim to follow jesus, but jesus didn't write the king james bible. He didn't write the old testament.

It is the teaching of the church that you follow, the church which promotes christianity and the following of jesus but you seek to somehow distance yourself from the church... despite following the christian doctrine.

I mean your position is, Jesus advocated non violence, so christianity is blameless where the crusades are concerned...

So were they following some other christianity? Which version do you subscribe to?

Does the old testament matter? New testament says it does... but I guess not?

On the subject of crusades having nothing to do with christianity...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It's hard not to take some of the images/gifs you post as insulting, IE. I don't like to reciprocate but just to show the game can be play both ways again.

http://adam4d.com/comics/2013-05-20-...t%20garage.png
I take zero offense at that as an atheist... because well... the cars were made by ford, you can go and visit the factory, do an analysis on the parts to see where they were made, etc,.

Just as soon as you can find a giant cross logo, or maybe JC imprinted with stars in the sky let me know!

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Old 02-12-2015, 08:37 PM #4953
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You have some good points there.

You still have not explained what your cartoon means. Does it depict a crazy christian without doctrine killing non christians ?
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Old 02-12-2015, 09:36 PM #4954
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ IE

You're blaming an religion for a movement that doesn't correctly reflect that religion. The teaching of Jesus, doesn't support those actions, Christianity's doctrine doesn't support those actions, so saying Christianity needs to be stamped out when it wasn't the cause doesn't make sense.

The old testament law was fulfilled by Jesus not abolished, what that means is following the old laws is not the focus anymore, what matters is morals and spirit of the law. I'm also surprised you chose to examine that comic literally to extract meaning.

@T

It's a simple comic with a quote, take whatever meaning you want from it. But as the meanings of zeal and doctrine go--

Enthusiastic devotion and tireless diligence to a cause without abody of principles presented for acceptance or belief.

So you're saying without doctrine is better? Remember doctrine doesn't even have to be religious.
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:10 PM #4955
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ IE

You're blaming an religion for a movement that doesn't correctly reflect that religion. The teaching of Jesus, doesn't support those actions, Christianity's doctrine doesn't support those actions, so saying Christianity needs to be stamped out when it wasn't the cause doesn't make sense.

The old testament law was fulfilled by Jesus not abolished, what that means is following the old laws is not the focus anymore, what matters is morals and spirit of the law. I'm also surprised you chose to examine that comic literally to extract meaning.

@T

It's a simple comic with a quote, take whatever meaning you want from it. But as the meanings of zeal and doctrine go--

Enthusiastic devotion and tireless diligence to a cause without abody of principles presented for acceptance or belief.

So you're saying without doctrine is better? Remember doctrine doesn't even have to be religious.


Being enthusiastic about stamp collecting might not be as dangerous about being enthusiastic about making others convert to your religion.

So, yes, zeal without doctrine might be better in at least some cases I suppose.

Having a doctrine that you are luke warm about, say, your belief that everyone must be the same religion as you, might be less dangerous than a red hot fiery passion for the same doctrine.

So, in some cases at lease, doctrine without zeal COULD be better.


Generally, zeal might be considered the energy a person might put into something...and, if its their doctrine, if they are very zealous, I might hope that their doctrine of choice is at least good for humanity.

If good for humanity, then zeal with doctrine is a good thing, and so forth.



People with "blamed religions", protest that the actions of some of their members do not represent THEM.

The Crusades were to convert the Muslims to Christianity or kill them/prevent Islam from spreading...it was a singularly religious war, waged by Christians against the Muslims.

The 911 attacks were by fundamentalist Muslims, more against the USA than Christianity per se, and mostly as pay back for the Crusades/Support of Israel.

Most of us were not in the crusades, and, via taxes at least, we support Israel as its the only democracy in that sand box, and the only reliable ally we have had in that region.

In any event, the fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians, etc, was not by us, we never shot or bombed anyone.

IE: You and I (I am guessing) do not feel that WE represent who the terrorists think they attacked, in any fair light.

The Muslims who were not hijacking that plane, and who have never held a weapon, etc, say "Those terrorists do not represent Islam! They represent a small but dangerous sect, but, they are not following Islam, the Koran or Hadith, but a twisted evil interpretation of it, used to manipulate their followers".

But, many Christians, and other Americans, simply lump them all together, and say "Muslims are Terrorists".


So, not all Christians and not all Muslims, are the same as all other Christians and Muslims. I know a lot of Muslims, and, trust me, their political views, world views, etc, are as varied as the many Christians I know....people ar e people.

As you've essentially stated earlier, evil people are evil people, and they were merely born into a situation that resulted in them being who they are and what religious views they have or whether they collect stamps, like chocolate better than vanilla, and that some were perverted enough to like vanilla better, or to believe in god, or not, is pot luck.

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Old 02-13-2015, 12:33 AM #4956
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Pope Francis: not having children is selfish | World news | The Guardian

What a judgmental asshat. And coming from a guy who himself will not have children.

News flash, its 2015, and having children is not for everybody. It has nothing to do with being selfish.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:13 AM #4957
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
unaffiliated and the nonreligious engage in far fewer crimes."
I don't know if that's true or not. Taking up a religion looks good on a parole report.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
People abuse power and use scapegoats wherever they find them, it's not necessarily the religion that causes it.
If you were truly a group of followers of the greatest being imaginable, I would hold you to higher standards than myself.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're just pointing out bad things that people who claimed a religious affiliation did. You seem to be unable to produce any Christian principles or body of principles that support those people's actions. Their actions were "zeal" without "doctrine".
Oh now you're just being facetious. You know damn well the old testament supports violence against nonbelievers in many areas and through many means.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Why don't you dig up something Jesus taught that supports the crusades to make your point and then tell me Christianity is at fault.
Of course. My mistake. A christian would never look to the old testament for moral guidance. You need the new testament.

Jesus says Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Now before you start with the mental gymnastics, at least understand it is reasonable for people to interpret that as condoning violence, even if you don't interpret it that way. The bible is an unquestionably violent book.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're blaming an religion for a movement that doesn't correctly reflect that religion.
That's a fallacy. No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-13-2015, 02:12 PM #4958
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I haven't been coming into this thread with a good heart lately and I will be toning it down a bit, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
like chocolate better than vanilla, and that some were perverted enough to like vanilla better

Lol, vanilla perverts.


Quote:
That's a fallacy. No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No... I'm not denying that Scotsman put sugar on their porridge, I'm saying it is not because he is Scotsman, that be puts sugar on his porridge.

Quote:
Jesus says Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Now before you start with the mental gymnastics, at least understand it is reasonable for people to interpret that as condoning violence, even if you don't interpret it that way. The bible is an unquestionably violent book.
It doesn't take mental gymnastics to know he isn't talking about a real sword, and it's unreasonable to come to that conclusion.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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Old 02-13-2015, 03:34 PM #4959
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I haven't been coming into this thread with a good heart lately and I will be toning it down a bit, my apologies.



Lol, vanilla perverts.




No... I'm not denying that Scotsman put sugar on their porridge, I'm saying it is not because he is Scotsman, that be puts sugar on his porridge.



It doesn't take mental gymnastics to know he isn't talking about a real sword, and it's unreasonable to come to that conclusion.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


RE: Scotsman:

The context was you saying that the people who acted in the name of your religion did not reflect the teachings of your religion in their acts.

So, if the Crusades had been carried out by those who just happened to be Christians, and, not sent by their Church to kill those of a different religion, then your argument would NOT be subject to the Scotsman fallacy.

In this case though, the Crusaders were only there BECAUSE they were Christians, and not as a coincidence, etc...so, they were "Scots like you", but, they did not ACT LIKE you felt a TRUE SCOT would (As in like you).

As your faith is based upon the bible you got from the catholic church, as its the catholic church that collected all those breathed words, and edited them to make a bible, or, actually, thousands of versions of the bible(s): You do not own, nor have ever seen, a single word in any bible that was not supplied by the catholic church. You want to follow the words of the Church, but, you ALSO want to say that they are not who you follow, because they are crazy perhaps, etc. You do not think the pope is god's representative on earth, you say he's just a guy.

The same "guy" who made the edits to say the words of the church cannot be wrong, and, that the bible contains the breathed words of god, etc....and that its true because he's god's representative, and is passing you the message....from god.

But, you don't believe him, except, you believe what he said...so your faith consists of the teachings of a Jewish guy, who, is quoted as saying his followers should follow the old testament to the letter, and not change an iota, but not following THAT part of what the Jew said, but, instead, what some OTHER Jewish guys who followed him around SAID HE SAID, when some OTHER guys wrote it down 70-300 years LATER, depending on which sources were involved.

And then saying that the parts he said to follow were obsolete, and to only follow the stuff AFTER that....even though he essentially said to be STRICTLY JEWISH.

And THEN to say every word of the bible is true...but, some of it is an allegory/metaphor or a story to illustrate a point, or, maybe as most are lifted directly from every prior religion known to bronze age middle easterners with myths and common date ranges for events/holidays, carried on to help converts identify with the new religion.


Weird belief set if you think about it rationally.













The same church that send those darn Scots to Crusades.

IE: Its your religion, they were acting on orders from the leader of your religion, and you still maintain the sanctity of what the Church wrote in your bible.

You're as much a Scot as they were, you merely feel that YOUR way of being Scotish is the correct interpretation, and, that their interpretation of how to be Scottish was not "true".


So, I think you need to accept the Scottish Moniker for now at least.





As for the sword, sure, it was a figure of speech, but, what did it mean, at least figuratively?

He added a bunch of stuff along the same lines, such as people should abandon their families to follow him, and any that don't were unworthy to follow him (Into this figurative battle? At all?) and so forth.

Missionary work has been a historical position for Christianity. Converting people, and if needed, torturing them until they chose Jesus of their own free will, and/or killing them if their free will was taking too long, etc.

Church practices DO adjust with the times of course. Mass murder and torture are, for example, no longer openly practiced. Conversions are encouraged but rarely are people killed for not converting. There are areas of course where people are still murdered and/or at war over religious beliefs, and Islam seems to be clearly taking the lead in that arena, and if they can kill maybe a thousand times more people, they can start to catch the Church.

So, just as most Muslims are not terrorists, or even Fundamentalists, most Christians are not terrorists or even Fundamentalists. The Church no longer condones violence, officially, not even the killing of gynecologists and obstetricians, which is of course still practiced from time to time unofficially by "rogue" Church goers.

Muslims claim TRUE followers of Islam would not do what the terrorists are doing in the name of Islam. The terrorists though, say THEIR interpretation of Islam is the MOST TRUE, and that TRUE MUSLIMS would join the fight to convert or kill others based upon THEIR version of Islam.

So, Scotsman are EVERYWHERE now a days.


Last edited by Teej; 02-13-2015 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 02-13-2015, 04:05 PM #4960
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
Those were not statements from the old testament, but clearly reference it.

Guess that puts into play all the violence from there no?
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