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Old 02-12-2015, 03:36 AM #4929
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It baffles me now you can associate stalin with a love based religion with the magnitude of genocide he's associated with. Regardless you've missed the point entirley.


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Old 02-12-2015, 03:59 AM #4930
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It baffles me now you can associate stalin with a love based religion with the magnitude of genocide he's associated with. Regardless you've missed the point entirley.
The same could be said of you.

Stalin, like others before, and after him USED religion to his own ends. One need not believe in it to see a use for it, and he certainly did.
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:22 AM #4931
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
8) Than Shwe was not an atheist at least privately either. Than Shwe is said to rely heavily on advice from his soothsayers, a style of ruling dating back to Ne Win. So, a superstitious person cannot be an atheist.
Why is that? I don't see where superstition requires belief in God, maybe some do but not most.

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Old 02-12-2015, 10:50 AM #4932
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
The same could be said of you.

Stalin, like others before, and after him USED religion to his own ends. One need not believe in it to see a use for it, and he certainly did.
The same can be said for government or really any authoritative position, but I don't see anyone here fighting the existence of those.
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Old 02-12-2015, 11:27 AM #4933
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
...love based religion...
Me thinks we must have very differing definitions of love. mine excludes coercion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The same can be said for government or really any authoritative position, but I don't see anyone here fighting the existence of those.
what are you saying here? undoubtedly governments and lots of authority use religion for control and to garner support. as an atheist I am against that use, I presume other atheists are as well, but clearly the existence of the authority is verifiable, it's the god they claim authority from that is not evident. often the authority really doesnt believe, but just wants believers to think that so they get their vote. then they proceed to do things against the religion and the intersts of those who voted for them. for example, former president bush claimed to be a christian, but I never heard him espouse the idea of "loving your enemies" or "turning the other cheek" I used to have a bumper sticker that said, "who would jesus bomb?" ironic, I know.
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Old 02-12-2015, 11:37 AM #4934
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It baffles me now you can associate stalin with a love based religion with the magnitude of genocide he's associated with. Regardless you've missed the point entirley.
YOUR point, seemed to be, that atheists were represented by evil people, otherwise, what was the POINT of YOUR post?

I simply gave some facts to give perspective on YOUR post, associating not believing in god, with STALIN, for example.

So, how can you associate Stalin with a belief that there is no god? Easy, the same way I associated him with a belief in god.

The difference was that he did believe in god, making your post somewhat off base in practice.

So, am I saying that because Stalin believed in god, he committed all of those atrocities? No, even though YOU implied he did it because he did not.

Trust me, for every person who did something bad who was an atheist, there are millions who did bad things who believed in god(s).

Its a misleading argument to say that just because the pope ordered the Crusades where untold innocents were brutally murdered, that ALL Catholics, or ALL Christians are bad.

Its a misleading argument to say that just because Hitler believed in god and ordered the death of millions of innocents not to mention combatants, that HIS belief in god was because he was Christian, and therefore Christians are bad, despite him SAYING he was doing "God's Work".

And so forth.

Just look at it the other way....if being a Christian and committing atrocities DOESN'T say that being a Christian is a bad thing...wouldn't all of the people who happen to NOT believe in god should therefore not similarly damn all OTHERS not believing in god?

YOUR point, showing those who you at least THOUGHT were atheists, as indicative that atheists have no morals, and, therefore, commit atrocities, is deeply offensive to deeply moral atheists.

MY point, that 1) Most of your examples, ironically, were not atheists, and, 2) That even if they were, its not a valid argument...any more than you and Hitler following Christianity means you are "Like Hitler".

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Old 02-12-2015, 12:22 PM #4935
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
Me thinks we must have very differing definitions of love. mine excludes coercion
As does mine, I doubt our definitions of love are very different.

Quote:
what are you saying here?
What I was saying was non-religious authoritative positions and beliefs can be abused for selfish reasons like religion can. Government was created for "good" but evil can come out of it, similar to religion. A lot of good comes from religion too, but fallible people can abuse it. People abuse power and use scapegoats wherever they find them, it's not necessarily the religion that causes it.


@ Teej

Quote:
YOUR point, seemed to be, that atheists were represented by evil people, otherwise, what was the POINT of YOUR post?
I literally clarified my point for the post within the post, you even quoted it.

Quote:
I don't understand your purpose for posting anti-Christian links, mine was just to show whatever game you're playing it can be played from both sides. I won't be digging up any more,
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:39 PM #4936
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
What I was saying was non-religious authoritative positions and beliefs can be abused for selfish reasons like religion can. Government was created for "good" but evil can come out of it, similar to religion. A lot of good comes from religion too, but fallible people can abuse it. People abuse power and use scapegoats wherever they find them, it's not necessarily the religion that causes it.
You know this reminds of the gun debate, and I'm certainly of the position that a gun can be used for good or evil. Yet when it comes to guns, no one disputes that they are dangerous, especially in the hands of the untrained, or dimwitted. It would seem to me the same can be said of religion, as many people assign value to anything related to religion where there is none.

Note how power is kept in North Korea? How it was kept in Rome? In egypt? Re-read that Teej wrote about russia, and research it a bit, and how it was kept there, and what was done, before and after the revolution.

You will find that rulers consistently rely on religion as a fulcrum to commit horrific atrocities, and remain in power through association with with "god" even in supposedly secular governments.

Religion is the plague that sets us back, that separates us, that divides. Unfortunately it seems too many people would rather believe in fairy tales than attempt to form their own moral framework, and realize that the very best thing they can do is live for themselves, for others, and to try to do good.

Something religions always claim, but somehow never live up to.

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Old 02-12-2015, 03:22 PM #4937
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You have some good points there.

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Old 02-12-2015, 03:46 PM #4938
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I try to avoid these discussions. However, I recently read an interesting article and thought I would share it.

How secular family values stack up - LA Times

In particular:
"Recent research also has shown that children raised without religion tend to remain irreligious as they grow older — and are perhaps more accepting. Secular adults are more likely to understand and accept the science concerning global warming, and to support women's equality and gay rights. One telling fact from the criminology field: Atheists were almost absent from our prison population as of the late 1990s, comprising less than half of 1% of those behind bars, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics. This echoes what the criminology field has documented for more than a century — the unaffiliated and the nonreligious engage in far fewer crimes."
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:44 PM #4939
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



As an atheist, I just hope the change isn't quite so gradual
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:03 PM #4940
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You have some good points there.

I don't get it. How is "zeal" dangerous on it's own? Doctrine enacted with zeal is surely far more dangerous... and often involves wielding a sword to behead a "nonbeliever".
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:27 PM #4941
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
I don't get it. How is "zeal" dangerous on it's own? Doctrine enacted with zeal is surely far more dangerous... and often involves wielding a sword to behead a "nonbeliever".
Who's doctrine involves that?

Quote:
zeal (zēl)
n.
Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance.

doc•trine (dŏkˈtrĭn)
n.
A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:41 PM #4942
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Who's doctrine involves that?
*Cough* Christian among others *Cough*

Quote:
zeal·ot
ˈzelət/Submit

noun: zealot; plural noun: zealots

a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
synonyms: fanatic, enthusiast, extremist, radical, young Turk, diehard, true believer, activist, militant;

More historical;
a member of an ancient Jewish sect aiming at a world Jewish theocracy and resisting the Romans until AD 70.
noun: Zealot; plural noun: Zealots
Origin

mid 16th century (in the sense ‘member of an ancient Jewish sect’): via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek zēlōtēs, from zēloun ‘be jealous,’ from zēlos (see zeal).

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Old 02-12-2015, 05:43 PM #4943
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Who's doctrine involves that?
Um, yeah. Zeal is just doing anything with enthusiasm. It is when applied to DOCTRINE that things can get "dicey." pun intended.

During the Crusades, those of the Christan doctrine used swords to great effect in indiscriminate mass murder. These days it is most notably Islamic extremists using swords to separate humans from various body parts.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:47 PM #4944
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