Old 02-09-2015, 09:22 PM #4897
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by H2Oxide View Post
Why are we fighting over what's right and wrong on a laser forum?
Not fighting. It's a reasoned discussion (most of the time). If you're insinuating only lasers should be discussed on a laser forum, why have you ventured into the "other" section to begin with?

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Originally Posted by H2Oxide View Post
should it change the way you read my posts and replies about lasers?
No. And it doesn't. Not for me, anyway.

Should someone ask about the transverse modes of a copper bromide resonator, I'm not going to bring up their religion, and I'd be happy to help them regardless. Religion has nothing to do with the transverse modes of a copper bromide resonator. I'm not sure how I would treat someone differently anyway.

Christian: "hey guys, what's five factorial?"
Me: "You and your magic invisible sky-daddy are stupid."

Can you even point to an instance where this thread has leaked into another? If you're THAT concerned about what other people think about your opinions, don't post them.


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Old 02-10-2015, 12:32 AM #4898
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Then please do explain to me why there are so few walking around blind?
Remember when I asked "Is the eye really the cause of the sin?" If you tear out your eye and throw it on the ground will it continue to sin? No of course not, the eye itself is not the cause.

Quote:
My moral framework is actually very very simple. Do no harm. That's it.
That's extremely vague and is more like a make it up as you go "moral framework" making it not much of a "moral framework" at all.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:28 AM #4899
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Remember when I asked "Is the eye really the cause of the sin?" If you tear out your eye and throw it on the ground will it continue to sin? No of course not, the eye itself is not the cause.



That's extremely vague and is more like a make it up as you go "moral framework" making it not much of a "moral framework" at all.
Hmmm, I don't think that making your own moral frame work is unusual: you yourself have your own moral frame work for example, that you made up.

You may have based it upon (your version of) a Christian faith, but, you have modified it to fit into your life and make sense given your life experiences, etc.

Christianity doesn't OWN the rights to "Not Killing People", or "Not Stealing", or even "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you", etc.

These are morals that predate Christianity, and most people agree that the Bible doesn't break much new ground as far as morality.

So, if you "choose" Christianity as your moral frame work, you could have just as easily chosen Judaism, or even the Code of Hammurabi, etc, as its pretty much the same in that regard.

If you ever looked at a woman lustfully and didn't necessarily act on it, but lusted in your heart, I suppose you would have:

1) Ripped out your eyes (Unless there was a well timed wink?)

2) Maybe ripped out your heart and/or reproductive organs

3) Decided that ripping out body parts was part of the Christian moral frame work that you thought you would snip off, as a bit too extreme, in your personal opinion.


I'm guessing that there are few voluntarily blind laser affectionados, and they you personally made up your own moral frame work so as to exclude ripping out your body parts, especially your eyes.


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Old 02-10-2015, 01:39 AM #4900
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The problems come with the ***ual fantasy and ****ography, those things are degrading to and dilute real relationships.
Well, not if you're doing it right.

For example, who says they have to be YOUR fantasies...SHE might have some too.

S E X can be a form of play, it doesn't need to produce future college tuition debt every time you "do it".

I think watching TV or reading a book can dilute a relationship too, as you spend time paying attention to the TV, or to the book.

If your relationship is so weak that watching TV, or reading a book dilutes what's left to the point that its a problem, I think the TV or book was not the main issue.

Obviously, if a person ONLY watches TV or reads books and doesn't spend enough time with their significant other...sure, THAT'S unfair.

If a woman reads a book, and a character in that book is brave, handsome, and slays dragons for his love, does that mean she can never appreciate you, so, books with heroes should be banned?

Do you feel degraded by her thinking that Sir Lancelot is hot?

Does it dilute your relationship?


Are you saying you have never fantasized about anyone but your wife, ever? If you had, DID YOU feel like she was not good enough anymore, and that your relationship was now diluted, or, did you sling the ding dong out of it the next time with the wife? There is a HUGE difference between a good imagination and ACTING on the fantasy.

I have been married over 35 years to the same girl, and have never cheated, not even an inappropriate office party kiss, etc...nada.

My BRAIN banged away here and there...but the rest of me behaved quite well.

The reason is that it would be UNFAIR to my wife to be unfaithful to her, and, I both know it would hurt her, and, frankly, I don't REALLY want to bang the fantasy chicks, EXCEPT AS A FANTASY...the fantasy part satisfies some aspect of the psyche, but, that's all. I don't confuse lust with love, well, not since I was maybe 14 or so.

I don't have a moral frame work that I can whip out and show a diagram of...I have a sense of fairness and empathy, and I FEEL empathetic because that's part of who I am, and, it bothers me if something is unfair. I do believe in right and wrong, and, don't do things that are wrong. I recognize that was is wrong in one setting is not wrong in another...so, it is subjective, but, not arbitrary. IE: I might do what is wrong NOW because I feel it is actually really right.

This might be analogous to Huck Finn knowing that he will go to hell for helping the Slave, escape...as he knows its a sin to steal, but just can't bear to see the slave suffer. If Christianity is correct, he WOULD go to hell for it, as stealing is a sin, and, at that time, a slave was a possession, and, a slave not being obedient to his master is a sin, etc.

Using Christianity as a framework for morality, the practice of slavery was justified. Using Christianity as a framework for morality, the Crusaders were murdering innocent woman and children, the Inquisition was murdering anyone who didn't "Freely choose to convert", Pogroms and then Hitler were murdering Jews, BLESSED by the Church no less, and so forth. A moral frame work that wobbly is not exactly superior to one that never hurt anyone, nor is motivated to.



IE: YOUR moral frame work is FAR more vague, so vague that even scholars who devote their lives to trying to decipher it disagree. SO vague that atrocities are committed TO follow it, etc.

I am differentiating between a Christian, who happens to be Christian, who commits a crime despite being Christian, as opposed to a Christian who commits a crime BECAUSE they are a Christian. For example, Christians are OVER represented in Jail, so, having that moral frame work apparently didn't PREVENT them from committing a crime....but, it did not typically CAUSE them to commit the crime. On the other hand, those in for HATE CRIMES, such as killing a gay person because the moral frame work says to kill gay people, or abortion doctors and nurses, or pregnant woman to prevent them from killing a fetus, (in their interpretation of the bible), DID commit the crime BECAUSE of their Christian moral frame work.

So the Christian moral frame work tends to be followed either as a Code of Hammurabi type guide, where rational people who would not normally kill someone because of their religion or ***ual orientation, don't, whether some Bronze Age inspired papyrus said not to or to....or as incitement TO kill people, etc. So Atheism is only the belief that there is no god, not a moral framework.

Its like saying if you don't believe in Unicorns, how do you keep yourself from harming others? Well, if you are a bad person, and you hurt others, it doesn't MATTER if you are a bad Christian or a bad atheist or a bad Muslim...that's more akin to being a bad person who has a hat vs a good person who wears a hat....the HAT is not the important part.

Most of the kids in prison that I've spoken with essentially felt that they were going to hell for what they'd done, and, were going to die before they were 30 anyway. ...but that they would be forgiven at their death bed so to speak. They were mostly DEVOUT Christians who simply made a lot of bad decisions. So, their Christian moral frame work didn't keep them from doing bad things...and, I truly believe that if they had been raised with no religion at all, they'd probably be in jail anyway...because its their poor judgement combined with their poverty and/or environment that lead them down the path they were on. THEIR interpretation of the bible was that they could sin now, and, ask for forgiveness later, just before they died, because to them, the bible said if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and sinned no more, they would go to heaven.

So, if accusing an atheist of having a vague moral framework, take a look at how Christianity (YOUR frame) work's vagueness is, everywhere, evidenced as FAR MORE vague.

So my moral frame work, that I made up, for me, involves trying to do the right thing, being fair, fighting for fairness, and trying to see things from other perspectives and sides, and to try to make the world a little better place. That WILL involve the usual morals of course, as stealing, killing, cheating on a spouse, and so forth, would not fit into my moral framework. If I find myself in a prison, or speaking with the police, I am getting paid to be there, not being punished for my moral framework's vagueness.


IE:

I think some perspective here is in order. Fulfilling each other's fantasies is a GOOD THING, not a bad one.

Having your OWN moral frame work is a good thing, not a bad one. (If the only reason you are good is to avoid punishment, you are merely avoiding punishment, IE: Acting good. If the only reason you are good is because you are a good person, even if you are NOT punished for being bad, but even rewarded, you are, imho, more sincere in your goodness)



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Old 02-10-2015, 03:29 AM #4901
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Remember when I asked "Is the eye really the cause of the sin?" If you tear out your eye and throw it on the ground will it continue to sin? No of course not, the eye itself is not the cause.
I was wondering if you would bring that up, because it brings up an awfully unpleasant contradiction.

Seeing as what the offending organ is, I have to question how you address the sin, without committing another?

So... life of sin, death of sin... live on and allow your most important organ to shrivel up and die, is that the proper biblically prescribed option? No matter what it seems you're in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
That's extremely vague and is more like a make it up as you go "moral framework" making it not much of a "moral framework" at all.
Of course it's vague. It's not a codified supposedly literally set in stone set of rules. It's an approach that allows addressing complicated situations that can occur in the world now, as opposed to say 5000 years ago.

Last I checked the bible didn't say a single thing about say cybercrime... I guess that means it's ok to hack into people's bank accounts? After all it's not even real money just ones, and zeros.

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Old 02-10-2015, 06:42 AM #4902
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Sheesh if I can't look at **** what am I supposed to set my family member's computer wallpapers as?
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:04 AM #4903
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're letting a few represent the many.


Acts 17:11 Archive: Masturbation, What Does the Bible Say?
From above Link:
Matt 5:28-29 (NIV) [Jesus:] "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."


It says some interesting stuff for sure. Blaming the EYE for you looking at a hot chick, so only the EYE goes to hell? Really? Go Jesus! Wisdom! Moral Frame Work! Whoo Hooo!



Obviously, as you don't feel that the eye IS responsible for the "sin" of being human and looking at a hot chick, and that the moral frame work Jesus is saying you should follow is wrong, you are choosing your OWN moral frame work to follow, one which doesn't require you to rip out body parts, so they go to hell instead of the rest of you.

I agree with your choosing of your own frame work, as, everyone does it, and, overall, the world is a better place because of it.


----------



"The few represent the many" arguments imply that the few are not representative of the many. In the case of the priesthood though, SO MANY of the priests are found guilty of child abuse, etc, that they are OVER REPRESENTED compared to the general population.

So, sure, some child abusers are NOT priests. But, the statistics show that more priests are child abusers than found in any OTHER job description.

NO other international company is so infiltrated by child abuse law suits endangering the bankruptcy of its franchises than the Church. IE: ONLY the Church suffers from THIS problem...and the CHURCH wrote the bible, and, SUPPLIED the "Moral Frame Work" that you follow.

Priests' moral frame work didn't prevent them from harming others...and a PRIEST is supposed to "Be Called", so, if GOD wanted them to be a priest, and CALLED them to his flock...GOD must, therefore, have had a plan to have this priest do what he did TO that priest's flock. The alternative is that people SAY that they were called, or had words breathed into them, or whatever...and, then, do whatever they do anyway.

MOST priests, that I knew anyway, were good and honest people. So, its not like ALL of them are flocking young children and scarring them for life...just way too many of them, as compared to say, the general population, or even the prison population. (Its the one crime even the other criminals abhor....even a rapist will look at a child abuser and feel morally superior. In prisons, the chomos are targeted. Many are "Tier Dropped", etc, by their fellow inmates...the only group punished for their crimes outside of prison, BY THE OTHER PRISONERS)

IE: The CRIMINALS' moral frame work would not condone the PRIEST's moral frame work's results.

Its supposed to be a frame work, but, its just a hook, and, people hang whatever the hell they want to on it, and call it Christianity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post

That's extremely vague and is more like a make it up as you go "moral framework" making it not much of a "moral framework" at all.


What YOU call Christianity, and what your neighbor calls Christianity and what the people in prison call Christianity and what the Priests call Christianity and what White Supremacists call Christianity and what gay Christian people call Christianity and so forth, are all saying that they follow the same moral frame work as a part of that Christianity.

So, Christianity as a moral frame work ts either REALLY VAGUE, or, REALLY IRRELEVANT.

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Old 02-10-2015, 12:26 PM #4904
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I was wondering if you would bring that up, because it brings up an awfully unpleasant contradiction.

Seeing as what the offending organ is, I have to question how you address the sin, without committing another?

So... life of sin, death of sin... live on and allow your most important organ to shrivel up and die, is that the proper biblically prescribed option? No matter what it seems you're in trouble.
The answer is to repent, there is no contradiction.


Quote:
Of course it's vague. It's not a codified supposedly literally set in stone set of rules. It's an approach that allows addressing complicated situations that can occur in the world now, as opposed to say 5000 years ago.

Last I checked the bible didn't say a single thing about say cybercrime... I guess that means it's ok to hack into people's bank accounts? After all it's not even real money just ones, and zeros.
Don't fool yourself, there were definitely complicated issues in the world 5000 years ago. The bible doesn't say cybercrime, yet I'm betting we both can agree it's wrong.

Romans 2 : 14-15
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:48 PM #4905
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The answer is to repent, there is no contradiction.
In that case it matters not what one does...

You can rape, kill, play the knock out game with seniors who can barely walk... just need to repent at the end?

Then why bother being good? Leading a good life? All you need to do is ask for forgiveness, mean it, and you're all set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Romans 2 : 14-15
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Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Now that's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case the bible seems to support my own approach to morality.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:03 PM #4906
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
In that case it matters not what one does...

You can rape, kill, play the knock out game with seniors who can barely walk... just need to repent at the end?

Then why bother being good? Leading a good life? All you need to do is ask for forgiveness, mean it, and you're all set.
"It needs to be said that faith is not a mere optimistic feeling, any more than repentance is a mere regretful or remorseful feeling. Faith and repentance are both acts. Faith is more than credence; faith is essentially the casting and resting of oneself and one's confidence on the promises of mercy which Christ has given to sinners, and on the Christ who gave those promises. Equally repentance is more then just sorrow for the past. Repentance is a change of mind and heart, a new life of denying self and serving the savior as king in self's place." - J.I. Packer

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Now that's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case the bible seems to support my own approach to morality.
Yes it does, "the requirements of the law are written on their hearts", as it is your's and mine.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:18 PM #4907
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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.... Equally repentance is more then just sorrow for the past. Repentance is a change of mind and heart, a new life of denying self and serving the savior as king in self's place." - J.I. Packer
not sure about the second part, but I do like christians to have this outlook. I have a real problem with the "sin, repent, rinse, repeat" catholic and other christians (but mostly catholics, since they have the ridiculous confession booths and hail marys and such)



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Old 02-10-2015, 08:57 PM #4908
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

*Ahem*

Quantum Equations Suggest Big Bang Never Happened | IFLScience

Interesting read. If the universe always existed and there never was a big bang, this might change our arguments quite a bit.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:08 PM #4909
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

In light of recent news...



Family Confirms U.S. Hostage Kayla Mueller Dead : The Two-Way : NPR

Here's a little tribute;

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Old 02-10-2015, 10:45 PM #4910
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So much fighting and death for no reason.
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:12 PM #4911
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Ah, I don't give religions much mind anymore, just clubs people belong to where they all, at least on the surface, agree to agree on the same belief system. Try going to any church and talk about some other belief system having credence in some areas more than theirs and soon you won't be in the club anymore. What does that tell you? They value their beliefs more than any of the members, not the kind of club I want to belong to.

I wonder if the world would be better off without religion, but not for spirituality, that is something we need more of and I never question but not where you decide your own style and type of spirituality is better than any others and start joining together on Sundays as a group which holds themselves higher than any single member, much less those who don't belong, at worst kill people who aren't part of your religion and want to eradicate everyone who doesn't belong from the planet. Religious groups aren't the only ones who can act this way, other groups can too from just excluding individuals who challenge them to even killing. Every group has elements of that kind of thing, forums included, although without the death penalty. Come to think of it, banning is a kind of death as far as existence in the virtual world of a forum goes. So, where's the problem? What is the seed of the problem which brings the evils we experience to the world? Might it simply come down to a lack of enough love?
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Useless troll fighting.

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Old 02-10-2015, 11:52 PM #4912
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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*Ahem*

Quantum Equations Suggest Big Bang Never Happened | IFLScience

Interesting read. If the universe always existed and there never was a big bang, this might change our arguments quite a bit.
Damn right it will. There is plenty left to discover.



Good one IE.

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So much fighting and death for no reason.
There is going to be a lot more fighting and death!





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