Old 02-05-2015, 07:06 PM #4849
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Oh hey, look, a neg rep.... apparently 14 year old boys don't masturbate anymore

For the record it was not an accusation, it was a statement of fact.

Maybe you call it something else though;

Abusing the wicked stick

Adjusting the antenna

Aiding and abetting a known felon

Applying the hand brake

Arguing with Henry Longfellow

Arm-wrestle with your one-eyed vessel

Attack the one-eyed purple-headed warrior

Audition your hand puppet

Backstroke roulette

Badgering the witness

Barking up the wrong tree

Bash the candle

Basting the ham

Battling the purple-headed yogurt slinger

Being rough with the *** stick

Be your own best friend

Beat the bishop

Beat the bologna

Beat the dummy

Beat the meat

Beat the pud

Beat the stick

Beat up your date

Beef tips stroking off

Bleed the weed

Blow your own horn

Bludgeon the beefsteak

Bop the bologna

Bop the bonzo

Box the Jesuit

Box with Richard

Brushing up on your typing skills

Buff the banana

Bugger your hand

Building upper-body strength

Burp the baby

Burp the worm

Butter the corn

Calling down for more mayo

Calling in the secret service

Caning the vandal

Caulking the cracks in the bathroom tile

Charm the snake

Check for testicular cancer

Cheese off

Choke Kojak

Choke the chicken

Choke the sheriff and wait for the posse to come

Clamp the pipe

Clean your rifle

Cleaning out your account

Clear the snorkel

Climb the tree

Closet Frisbee

Combing the hair on your bald pig Sally

Combing your hair

Communing with nature

Consulting with your silent partner

Corral your tadpole

Couch hockey for one

Crank the love pump

Crank the shank

Crimp the wire

Crown the king

Crushing pop cans in the dark

Cuddle the kielbasa

Cuff the carrot

Daisy-chaining

Dancing in the dragon's fiery breath

Dancing with the one-eyed sailor

Date Miss Michigan

Date Mrs. Palmer and her five daughters

Date Rosie Palm and her five sisters

Debugging the hard drive

Defrosting the fridge

Digital penile oscillation

Discovering your own potential

Distributing free literature

Do handiwork

Do it your way

Do the janitor thing

Do the white knuckler

Doing your homework

Drain the monster

Dry humping the ottoman

Eating grapes with the one-armed man

Electing the President

Engage in safe ***

Exercise one's right

Exercising your right to privacy

Fastening the chin strap on the helmet of love

Feed the ducks

Feeding bologna to the Smurfs

Feeling your way around

Fiddle the flesh flute

Firing the pound gun

Fishing with dynamite

Fist your mister

Five knuckle shuffle

Flick your Bic

Fling your phallus

Flip the bishop

Flipping your omelet

Flog the bishop

Flog the dolphin

Flog the dong

Flog the log

Flog the mule

Flogging the egg man

Fly fishing

Fondle your flagpole

Free Willy

Frost the pastries

Frosting your maple bar

Frying up the corndog

Gallop the old lizard

Gardening with the golden trowel

Genital stimulation via phallengetic motion

Get a date with Slick Mittens

Get the German soldier marching

Get to know yourself

Get your pole varnished

Give it a tug

Give your low five

Giving the half-blind dog a run for his money

Go a couple of rounds with ol' Josh

Go blind

Go on a date with Fisty Palmer

Go on a date with Handrea and Palmela

Go the blow

Going Hans Solo on Darth Vader's head
Submitted by Jake W.

Goose the gherkin

Grease the pipe

Greasing the three-legged cow

Hand job

Hard labor

Have one off the wrist

Helping put Mr. Kleenex's kids through college

Hitchhike to heaven

Hitchhike underneath the big top

Hitting too close to home

Hoisting your own petard

Hold the bishop

Hold the sausage hostage

Holding your own

Hone the cone

Honk your horn

Hosing down the driveway

Hotfooting it to the nearest exit

Hug the hog

Hump your hose

Investing in pork bellies

Invoking the Oscar Meyer love spell

Jack hammer

Jazz yourself

Jerk Jamby

Jerk the gherkin

Left to your own devices

Letting the cat out of the bag

Liquidating the inventory

Locking the bathroom door

Look for ticks

Looking for clues with Fred and Daphne

Lope the mule

Love the Muppet

Love's labors lost

Lubricating the love monkey

Make a foreskin cone

Make instant pudding

Make the bald man puke

Making a cash withdrawal

Making chowder with sailor Ned

Making it up as you go along

Making magic with leftovers

Making soup

Making the bald man cry

Making the bread rise

Making the world safe for democracy

Mangle the midget

Manipulate the mango

Manual labor

Manual override

Master Bacon, meet Rosie Hancock

Meat with Mother Thumb and her four daughters

Milk the lizard

Milk the moose

Milk the self

Mount a corporal and four

Much goo about nothing

Nerk your throbber

Null the void

Oil the glove

Onan's olympics

One gun salute

One man band

One-night-stand with yourself

Opening the flood gates

Pack your palm

Paddle the pickle

Paint the ceiling

Paint the pickle

Painting the flag pole

Painting the picket fence

Palm the calm

Paying at the turnpike

Peel the banana

Perform diagnostics on your man tool

Pet the lizard

Pip the pumpkin

Play a little five-on-one

Play a one-stringed guitar

Play five against one

Play in a one-man show

Play peek-a-boo

Play pocket pinball

Play pocket pool

Play tag with the pink torpedo

Play the skin flute

Play tug-o-war with Cyclops

Play Uno

Playing it safe

Playing the one-stringed melody

Playing the single-string air guitar

Plugging in the toaster

Plunk your twanger

Polish Percy in your palm

Polish the family jewels

Polish the helmet

Polish the rocket

Polish the rock-hard staff of St. Peter

Polish the sword

Pound off

Pound the bald-headed moose

Pound the pud

Pound your flounder

Pounding the fence post

Prepare the carrot

Prime the pump

Pull rank

Pull the bologna pony

Pull the carrot

Pull the goalie

Pull the pole

Pull the Pope

Pull the pud

Pull your own leg

Pull your taffy

Pulling your own weight

Pulling yourself up by your own bootstrap

Pump the python

Pump the stump

Punch the clown

Punch the munchkin

Punish Percy in your palm

Putting your best foot forward

Putting your foot down

Putting your thumb in the porridge

Raining on your parade

Ram the ham

Relishing your hot dog

Riding the five-legged pony

Roll your own

Rolling it off the lot

Romeo and himself

Rope the pony

Rope the Pope

Rub one out

Rub the pink eraser

Rubbing Buddha's tummy

Run off a batch by hand

Sacrifice sperm to the god of lonely nights

Safest ***

Sailing the mayonnaise seas

Saluting the general

Sampling the secret sauce

Sand wood

Scour the tower of power

Scraping the bottom of the barrel

Scratch the itch

Screwing your courage to the sticking place

Secret handshake

Self abuse

Self-induced penile regurgitation

*** with someone you really love

Shake hands with Abe Lincoln

Shake hands with the midget

Shake hands with the unemployed

Shake hands with your John Thomas

Shake hands with your wife's best friend

Shake hands with Yul Brynner

Shake the sauce

Shake the sausage

Shake the snake

Shaking hands with Dr. Winky

Shellac the shillelagh

Shemp the hog

Shift gears

Shine the helmet

Shine your pole

Shoot for the moon

Shoot putty at the moon

Shoot the airplane

Shooting yourself in the foot

Shuck your corn

Sizing things up

Slam the ham

Slam the salami

Slam the salmon

Slam the Spam

Slap high fives with Yul Brynner

Slap it

Slap pappy

Slap the carrot

Slap the clown

Slap the donkey

Slap the purple-headed yogurt pistol

Slap the salami

Slapping Johnny on the back

Sling the jelly

Smack the salami

Smiting the pink knight

Snap the monkey

Snap the rubber

Snap the whip

Solo flight

Solo marathon

Solo ***

Spank Elvis

Spank the bishop

Spank the frank

Spank the monkey

Spank the salami

Spank the wank

Spanking the rooster

Spending your Christmas bonus

Squeeze the cheese

Squeeze the juice

Squeeze the toothpaste in the middle of the tube

Squeeze your cheese-dog

Squeezing the happy lumberjack

Stewing in your own juices

Stinky pinky

Stir the batter

Stir the yogurt

Strain the main vein

Straining your cabbage

Stretching the truth

Strip-mining with the ********* man

Stroke the carrot

Stroke the mole

Stroke the one-eyed burping gecko

Stroke the satin-headed serpent

Stroke your poker

Stroke your Twinkie

Strumming the one-string harp

Take matters into your own hands

Take part in population control

Take the fifth

Take the monster for a one-armed ride

Taking a few practice shots

Taking a load off

Talk quietly to yourself

Tame the shrew

Taunt the one-eyed weasel

Teaching the Cyclops the lambada

Tease the weenie

Tenderize the tube steak

Tending to your own affairs

Test your batteries

That crazy hand jive

Thrash your thing

Thump the pump

Thump your thong

Tickle the ivory

Tickle the pickle

Tickle the taco

Ticklewigglejigglepickle

Tipping off the inspector

Toss the snag

Toss the turkey

Toss yogurt

Tug the slug

Twang the wire

Tweak your Twinkie

Twist your crank

Unleashing the alabaster yak

Unloading the gun

Unpacking the moving van

Varnish the flagpole

Varnishing the banister

Visiting with Papa Smurf

Wake the dead

Walk the dog

Walk the plank

Walking a mile in Mr. Wiggly's shoes

Wallowing in self pity

Wank with the one-eyed wonder weasel

Wash the meat

Wax the Buick

Wax the carrot

Wax the dolphin

Waxin' n' Milkin'

Whack it

Whack the weasel

Whack Willy

Whip the dummy

Whip the one-eyed trouser snake

Whip the one-eyed worm

Whip the rat

Whip the stiff

Whip the wire

Whip up some sour cream

Whip your dripper

Whitewashing with Huck and Tom

Whittle the stick

Wiggling your walrus

Windsurf on Mount Baldy

Wonk your conker

Work things out

Working at your own speed

Working late at the office

Working up a foamy lather

Working without Annette

Wrestle the dragon

Wrestle the eel

Wrestling with the bald champ

Wring out your rope

Wrist aerobics

Yank the crank

Yank the yo-yo

Yank your plank

Well... which one is it? Since you insisted on me asking...



Edit: On a side note... how long does the system force one to wait before allowing of giving rep again? I'm three behind and at this rate it will take years to make sure I remember to actually leave the comments.
Wow! It looks like we have the worlds greatest expert on the subject. IE you should write a book on the subject, you could make money and be famous.


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Old 02-05-2015, 07:20 PM #4850
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Science is in check with logic, since science can't be used to test science in a sense. It's better than using logic to test logic!
You can actually use science to test science. We know logically that 1+1=2, but it can be further proven that this is true. Check out this proof.
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:28 PM #4851
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Now that was a interesting post .



Spanking the rooster .
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:31 PM #4852
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Wow! It looks like we have the worlds greatest expert on the subject. IE you should write a book on the subject, you could make money and be famous.
Someone else beat me to it

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Old 02-05-2015, 07:39 PM #4853
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Time to turn off the tv and grab a bowl of icecream.

All arguments are based on circular reasoning. (No they are not, as that means all arguments are faulty, and, some arguments can be valid) It's up to me to choose the one that supposes the strongest basis.

For example here is what I believe.

1. The bible presupposes that itself is correct. If it is correct there is only one thing that need be right. That is, that it is true. This makes me see the Bible as the strongest of these arguments.

Actually, this is the weakest possible argument, as its a faulty argument. IE: You can't say you will prove a statement true by saying another statement says its true....that's not actually a valid argument....so the bible is not a valid argument for its own validity (THAT's circular reasoning, a type of mistake in logic)


2. Science presupposes a lot of things. It presupposes that math, the scientific method, etc. are correct. (This a a faulty conclusion, as it lumps things together, creates a straw argument, implies a question that is not asked, and then concludes that its answered a real question) Science presupposes that the universe is logical and orderly and that it obeys laws that are consistent over time and space. However even in this weekness, it has one benefit. Science is in check with logic, since science can't be used to test science in a sense. It's better than using logic to test logic! (Science is used to check science all the time, its part of how science works actually. For example, even though someone might use the wrong formula, or forget to carry a number, etc...math DOES work...its a valid science. So, if a scientist "makes a discovery", other scientists have to verify that they can replicate that finding before its able to be accepted as valid.

Scientists used math to calculate things like where an asteroid will be in 10 years, which also requires understanding gravity, and astrophysics, and so forth....so, all of these sciences are used in making these predictions, and, we know it works, because, 10 years later, the asteroid is where science predicted it would be.


Logic DOES validate science, as, the science of logic is used by scientists to do their science...just as the science of math, or chemistry might be, etc.

Logic doesn't test logic btw....anymore than math tests math. There's just logic, as a science....and, a STATEMENT or other argument, can be tested with logic. For example, if someone claims the bible is its own proof, we can apply logic, and prove that that is a false statement)


Many atheists would say, "I believe in no ultimate truth. (This is a wild supposition, and, is not supportable) Everyone can just be happy with their own thoughts and views but that doesn't mean anyone is correct. Christians are being exclusive when they say they are correct." (Any one can be exclusive if they are correct, it is not a property of Christianity...just like any one can be exclusive if they are incorrect, for the same reason)


Okay I get that but a problem is, there is no inclusive statement. The fact that this hypothetical person believes that there is no ultimate truth, is an ultimate truth in and of itself! (You don't seem to know what "Ultimate Truth" means?) There has to be an ultimate standard that has all authority (No, that is yet another unsupportable supposition on your part), and if that is the Bible some circular reasoning is inevitable. (Circular reasoning is not a type of reasoning that is valid. The REASON your arguments use circular reasoning is BECAUSE they are invalid, unsupportable, and, wrong)

"Since an ultimate standard cannot appeal to a greater standard for its authority, it must appeal to itself. (This is more incorrect reasoning, making a false supposition, and false conclusions, including the idea that authority = right) But when people reject the Bible as God’s Word, they too are reasoning in a circle. (NO, actually, rejecting a circular argument is sound logic, and, the correct interpretation of a circular argument, which must be rejected as invalid. ) That is, they start with the assumption that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible, and end with the conclusion that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible. Any ultimate standard involves some degree of circularity" (Dr. Jason Lisle). (This is complete tripe. It is NOT circular reasoning to say A = A. It is circular to say A is true because A says it's true.)

So, I take the Bible as the inerrant Word of God by faith, but it’s not a “blind faith" as some might say. The Bible also makes a lot of logical sense (About none actually) , and many parts have been proven to be historically accurate. (Almost none actually, for example, some towns did not yet exist, so were obviously plugged in by later people) A Christian worldview also makes sense of this logic through experiences. (You said nothing to draw this conclusion though....?) At least this is what I, am many others have observed through our short lives (and some long ones!). In fact, I'm pretty sure that apart from what the Bible says, I wouldn't be able to understand the universe as a whole. (This I believe, as you don't understand science at all, and it would answer most of your questions. What would be left would be what science has not yet answered, but which supernatural explanations would be the worst answers to, etc)

"This is the “proof” of the Bible as God’s Word (NO, it's not): without God as revealed in His Word, it would be impossible to prove anything (Proverbs 1:7) (ANOTHER example of it being wrong...2+2 = 4...w/o god). So, I have a very good reason for my faith (Actually, no, you don't, at least not based on what you say you are basing it on). Without the Christian worldview, I would not be able to account for reasoning. I believe so that I may understand" (Dr. Jason Lisle). (No basis for any of this, except some superstitious guy who is delusional)

I'm quoting this because I agree (God only knows why...).

However anyone who comes to the belief the Bible is God's Word from worldviews alone has everything messed up and backwards (Or is 100% normal), in fact, if the Bible weren't true, world observations wouldn't have any meaning behind them. In nature there is evidence because of the regular nature of the universe, and the order of things that exist. (This is unsupportable rubbish. Merely saying nothing would make sense w/o the bible is simply not true...to those who actually know things. Things make sense if you ignore the bible)

"Since the universe is upheld by God’s power (Hebrews 1:3), (Not proven and unsupportable) it necessarily will be consistent with what God has said in His Word. (Not relevant, as this has not been established) However, there are instances where our interpretation of what we observe with our senses does not match our understanding of Scripture. (Because Scripture is a poor indicator of what we observe) When this happens, we should cautiously double-check to make certain we have done proper exegesis of the biblical text and then use the clear propositional truth of the Bible to help correct our understanding of nature" (Dr. Jason Lisle). (That is illogical as well, as it requires ignoring facts to mold observations to a preconceived and illogical conclusion, and/or merely re-interpreting the preconceived illogical conclusions until they make sense in the real world)

Consider that if the world didn't exist, then what reason would we have to believe we aren't all delusional and that we can trust our senses? (Because we wouldn't exist?) Even if this sounds silly, that statement has merit (Not really, not at all) because if God didn't create us then there is no reason to believe our senses are actually telling us what we think they are! (Again, a false premise. There are many non-supernatural explanations as to why our senses can be fooled (Optical illusions for example) that do not require supernatural explanations)

I read a post someone made who said this: "
"And if the Bible were ever to be proven wrong, would that mean that God does not exist, or does the logic you spoke of earlier still prove His existence? And if it does, wouldn’t that mean the logic supercedes the Bible. Just some food for thought." -Anonymous (This is also rubbish. The bible has already been proven to be wrong...that's done already, over and over again. If the bible is what proves god's existence, then, it being wrong doesn't support god's existence. Logic DOES supersede the bible, as logic, in of itself, is not "wrong", and, can be applied to our lives quite usefully)

And I think Dr. Jason Lisle had a good answer that I'd rather have you here word for word.

"
Upon careful reflection, it is clear that the Bible cannot be proved wrong. (Reflection, as in in, looking at itself in the mirror? In any case, not a valid supposition) In order to prove something, you’d need laws of logic. But laws of logic presuppose the biblical God. (NO, actually, the laws of logic say the opposite, and DO NOT REQUIRE the biblical god, or any god for that matter) So, without God as revealed in the Bible, there would be no foundation for the laws of logic by which we prove other things. Logic is contingent upon the biblical God. (This is again, backwards. Logic itself says nothing about god/doesn't require there to be a god, and, when applied, doesn't support the existence of god)

I realize that many of you are atheist or agnostic, however I would still like to bring up this point. Many people say, "I believe all gods all lead the same place. They are all going to god. They are all paths up a mountain. Some are rocky and some are steep etc. (MANY PEOPLE?) For example Christians believe Jesus actually died on the cross, he is the Son of God, and he rose from the dead. Muslims on the other hand, don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, or rose from the dead. In fact, they don't believe he is the Son of God. They believe Jesus was a good prophet.

These are the examples of "bumps in the road," or the "rocky and steep" paths up the mountain. Many non-Christians would say we're arrogant for saying that Jesus is the only way. The only reason we say that Jesus is the only way, is because he said so himself. If he hadn't said so, we wouldn't be saying so. However, back to what I was discussing, the problem with saying that all roads lead to the same place, is that it is even more arrogant than me saying Jesus is the only way. We'd all agree we haven't reached the summit of this "mountain" yet. I sure some of us here believe we never will. That's okay for now. The reason saying they all come to the same summit is arrogant is, since none of us have reached the top, none of us can look down to observe that. You see, we all look up from the bottom. So those claiming from the top are actually arguing from a big argument, with thin legs, those of which are easily taken out from under it.

(This is more BS. Its saying that you cannot argue from what is known, to predict what is unknown, and, yet, you CAN. Its NOT arrogant to say what you believe. Arrogance would have more to do with the attitude with which something might have been said, rather than as much with the content's truth.

One of the HALLMARKS of truth is that it CAN predict things when applied. IE: If the truth is that praying works, and you get what you prayed for, it would be apparent that you at least get what you prayed for more often than expected by chance. This has been proven to NOT be the case. People pray all the time, and, sometimes they get what they prayed for, and, sometimes they don't.)


I can expound, on this if you want. I'm not a theologian. I have gotten this from a college evangelist who came back from several years of missionary work at a campus and is helping us highschoolers. This guys knows all the arguments and actually pretends he is an atheist he worked with, just to help us work on our skills for defending our faith.

(He is really better off getting a real job, he sucks at this...all of the arguments are flawed so deeply they hardly even count as communication)

Here is an image that depicts the mountain analogy. Disregard the text at the bottom, as I don't believe this diagram was designed for this.


Another topic I'd like to discuss is the trinity. Many religions are poly theistic. The Christian religion is not. Many people see the trinity of the Christian God as three different gods. This idea is not true. All three entities are the same God. However, they are different in character and role in the God-head.

The trinity diagram.
I haven't check these verses for myself, so they might not be correct, but the diagram still holds true.

Please read this

Thanks you for reading my points. I spent 4 hours writing this and collecting quotes and graphics so I hope it is helpful to you.


I DO appreciate you spending 4 hours trying to communicate your thoughts given to you by that missionary. The problem is that, sadly, there was nothing of value actually produced...just a lot of BS wearing a bow. Not ONE valid point was made, not even one. Nothing was proven, as every single argument made was deeply flawed. Even the understanding of how to make a point and what logic is itself, etc, was flawed.

As you are young, and, its your first attempt, don't be TOO discouraged though. You have to crawl before you can walk, and, everyone falls at first anyway....its normal.


You might want to consider WHY there are NO VALID arguments for god's existence though. WHY are ALL of the arguments invalid? WHY do ALL of them use faulty logic? ARE THERE NO actual arguments that DO support god's existence?

Ask yourself why it is that NOTHING supports god's existence OTHER THAN the beliefs of those who choose to believe, and NOTHING else.

For example: Saying "I look at the beautiful sky and fluffy white clouds and the sunlight streaming down to earth through a gap in the clouds, I can SEE god's presence!" doesn't prove there's a god, it proves the earth is beautiful.

Lets pretend you saw a ghost. You really felt you saw it. HOW would you prove it to anyone? You could not, with all likelihood, convince anyone based upon logic. Even if it WAS THERE, logic will probably not be able to prove it, unless something about this ghost lent itself to a proof.

Now, ghosts are supernatural, and, not real. So, that makes proving you saw one tough, as there will be no logical arguments to prove it was there, unless the argument was flawed.

If you saw a bat, or a dog, or a burglar, a moose, or a party of drunken coeds, you might be able to prove they were there and that you saw them. There would be evidence. That means you COULD potentially use logic to prove they were there.

So, supernatural things that don't exist: really hard to use logic properly and prove they exist.

Natural things that have evidence of existing: Really not hard to use logic properly to prove they exist.





Again, why no REAL arguments that can prove god exists?

Think about it.

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Old 02-05-2015, 08:52 PM #4854
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I stopped reading USAbro's post after the first sentence when he tried to justify circular reasoning. The fact that it took a four hour post of circular reasoning to try and justify something utterly ridiculous is self evident of what organised religion adds up to.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:12 PM #4855
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post



I DO appreciate you spending 4 hours trying to communicate your thoughts given to you by that missionary. The problem is that, sadly, there was nothing of value actually produced...just a lot of BS wearing a bow. Not ONE valid point was made, not even one. Nothing was proven, as every single argument made was deeply flawed. Even the understanding of how to make a point and what logic is itself, etc, was flawed.

As you are young, and, its your first attempt, don't be TOO discouraged though. You have to crawl before you can walk, and, everyone falls at first anyway....its normal.


You might want to consider WHY there are NO VALID arguments for god's existence though. WHY are ALL of the arguments invalid? WHY do ALL of them use faulty logic? ARE THERE NO actual arguments that DO support god's existence?

Ask yourself why it is that NOTHING supports god's existence OTHER THAN the beliefs of those who choose to believe, and NOTHING else.

For example: Saying "I look at the beautiful sky and fluffy white clouds and the sunlight streaming down to earth through a gap in the clouds, I can SEE god's presence!" doesn't prove there's a god, it proves the earth is beautiful.

Lets pretend you saw a ghost. You really felt you saw it. HOW would you prove it to anyone? You could not, with all likelihood, convince anyone based upon logic. Even if it WAS THERE, logic will probably not be able to prove it, unless something about this ghost lent itself to a proof.

Now, ghosts are supernatural, and, not real. So, that makes proving you saw one tough, as there will be no logical arguments to prove it was there, unless the argument was flawed.

If you saw a bat, or a dog, or a burglar, a moose, or a party of drunken coeds, you might be able to prove they were there and that you saw them. There would be evidence. That means you COULD potentially use logic to prove they were there.

So, supernatural things that don't exist: really hard to use logic properly and prove they exist.

Natural things that have evidence of existing: Really not hard to use logic properly to prove they exist.





Again, why no REAL arguments that can prove god exists?

Think about it.
The thing is, I don't see that it is flawed. So I'm not giving up any hope cause what I said is fine.

About science that's not what I meant. I was trying to say that it is impossible to do an experiment to prove the logic of science is true.

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Old 02-05-2015, 09:34 PM #4856
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The thing is, I don't see that it is flawed. So I'm not giving up any hope cause what I said is fine.

About science that's not what I meant. I was trying to say that it is impossible to do an experiment to prove the logic of science is true.
Would you think that circular reasoning is flawed in, say, a discussion about something other than religion?

Don't really get your comment about proving the logic of science either. Science is proved every day when its progress is put into practical use. When a lightbulb factory churns out a bunch of bulbs that is done because the science behind it is proven and produces a result. This is not difficult to understand.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:09 PM #4857
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The thing is, I don't see that it is flawed. So I'm not giving up any hope cause what I said is fine.

About science that's not what I meant. I was trying to say that it is impossible to do an experiment to prove the logic of science is true.
Its the opposite of what you say...that's what experiments are FOR. (IE: Its not impossible, its the entire purpose of science, TO test ideas and logic)

For example, to PREDICT where a comet is going to be, 10 years later, requires a LOT of sciences and logic to do. The effects of gravity, mass, acceleration, the pull of the stars and planets and other bodies, momentum, math, and so many other factors are required.

If math didn't work, the comet would not be where it was predicted to be 10 years later.

If we were wrong about gravity, the comet would not be where it was predicted to be 10 years later.

If we were wrong about how the solar system and universe worked, and how all the parts were moving, the comet would not be where it was predicted to be 10 years later, and so forth.

If, though, 10 years later, the comet IS where it was predicted to be, that PROVES that ALL of those things WERE understood, and, able to be applied to real life situations.


When a GPS satellite MUST take the theory of relativity into account for it to tell your car where the road/next turn is, or, it doesn't WORK, that PROVES that that theory is valid, as, it not being valid would make the GPS not work, and so forth.

There are millions of examples that PROVE science "works" and that "math" works, etc.

The entire POINT of doing an experiment is to find out if something works or not....and its possible to do that, and, its done every day many times over....so its so far from "Impossible" its not even funny.

To restate: It is possible to see if the logic of math and science is true. It is not only possible, its what scientists do every day.


LOGIC


Sigh.

OK, lets start with something basic.

Circular reasoning or logic is not valid. Its a type of mistake.

Its akin to a type of mathematical error, not a type of math.


In logic, the things you say to make your case/prove your point are called your argument. Its not used the way you'd describe your parents arguing in the next room about money, etc.


So, when you are presenting an argument, you are trying to prove something.

There are arguments that are valid, meaning that they could be true in that they don't violate the rules of logic.


I can't really teach a logic class in this post, but, you would probably benefit from taking a class in logic. It helps you understand how to think. Not WHAT to think, but HOW to apply what you know to what you don't know, and, how to tell if you, or someone else, is making a good case, or a poor one.


In a nut shell, the idea is to make arguments that can be defended.

If you say something is true, it should be verifiable outside of the argument...and assuming its true should NOT cause another argument that might use it, to come to the wrong conclusion.


Here are some examples of arguments:

For example: "A study found that all of the men in the State Penitentiary for robberies, had viewed ****ography and masturbated using it. Obviously, ****ography and masturbation must be stopped if we are to staunch the tide of robberies our fair city has been suffering".

This sounds as though there was a fact followed by a conclusion, an argument to stop masturbation while viewing ****ography.

Logically though, it is an invalid argument, because you can substitute other things for the subject items, and, come to the same points.

Example:

"A study found that all of the men in the State Penitentiary for robberies, had drank milk as children. Obviously, the consumption of milk by children must be stopped if we are to staunch the tide of robberies our fair city has been suffering".


Do you see how the argument is flawed?

Notice BOTH examples used potentially true statements as their opening case. There is no reason to believe the inmates DIDN'T drink milk as children, and, there's no reason to think they DIDN'T choke any chickens, etc.

Describe why the two true statements lead to the wrong conclusion(s).


Other examples:


John is a Sailor. John is also a man. Therefore, Sailors are men.


I grow asparagus in my garden. Einstein also grew asparagus in his kitchen, which proves how smart I am.


He is a very evil man. He has a mustache like Hitler's.


I am lying to you right now.


I always tell the truth, and, you are thinking about masturbating.


I always tell the truth. I am the the best ping pong player in the world, and, you can believe it, because, as I mentioned, I always tell the truth.

--------------

So - can you tell what's wrong with these arguments?

Can you see how they are flawed?


Go through them, and see if you can tell me what's wrong with each one of them.

After you've done that, you might have a better shot at understanding this logic-thing. (There's an awful lot to it, but, the basic idea of analyzing for validity, as a concept to try, is definitely a great start)


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Old 02-05-2015, 11:18 PM #4858
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I was trying to say that it is impossible to do an experiment to prove the logic of science is true.
It's not impossible. Did you see the link I posted? Logically if I have one apple and I get another apple I have two apples. That's 1+1=2. This is basic mathematics, and it makes sense logically.
Science is (simply stated) just applied mathematics.

Without referencing 1+1=2 it can be proven that is it true. (See the link I posted previously)

This proof shows that the logic behind mathematics (and by extension, science) can be proven to be true.

Edit: Here is the link that I posted previously.
http://tachyos.org/godel/1+1=2.html

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Old 02-06-2015, 12:04 AM #4859
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And HERE. WE. GO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
All arguments are based on circular reasoning.


I don't even know what to say to that it's so abjectly idiotic. I don't think it's possible for you to be off to a worse start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The bible presupposes that itself is correct. If it is correct there is only one thing that need be right.
And I presuppose you're a big goon. If I am correct, there is only one thing that need be right. Therefore, I am correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
It presupposes that math, the scientific method, etc.
That's wrong, and you damn well know that's wrong. Math and science are proven every time you make a keystroke. Technology is not possible without science, so don't pretend technology is hypothetical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
There has to be an ultimate standard that has all authority
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
they too are reasoning in a circle. That is, they start with the assumption that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible, and end with the conclusion that God has not revealed Himself in the Bible
I start with the assumption there are no unicorns in my pocket. I go check my pocket, and come to the conclusion that there are no unicorns in my pocket. Have I committed some logical fallacy?

You clearly don't understand what circular reasoning is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
without God as revealed in His Word, it would be impossible to prove anything (Proverbs 1:7).
Firstly, this is a demonstrably false presupposition.

Secondly, that's not what proverbs 1:7 says. It says "The fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge"

Thirdly, that is contradicted by:
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7
God is Love. 1 John 4:8
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I believe so that I may understand
This is just goofy preacher talk.

Most of the world doesn't believe in your god, and yet most of the world understands nature better than you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
laws of logic presuppose the biblical God.
One of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The only reason we say that Jesus is the only way, is because he said so himself. If he hadn't said so, we wouldn't be saying so.
FAIL.

The only reason Muslims say that Allah is the only way, is because he said so himself. If he hadn't said so, they wouldn't be saying so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
That's just more presuppositional apologetics. You start from the position "nothing is possible without my god" (without ever proving it), then you stick your fingers in your ears and shit out of your face hole.

Google Matt Dillahunty VS Sye Ten Bruggencate (who I believe is the founder of your cherished "answers in genesis"), and you'll find a debate that disproves your garbage world view.

Or you can shovel more circles of nonsense into your mind straight from the asshole your hero Jason Lisle. Given your track record, I'm betting on the latter.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:27 AM #4860
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And HERE. WE. GO.





I don't even know what to say to that it's so abjectly idiotic. I don't think it's possible for you to be off to a worse start.



And I presuppose you're a big goon. If I am correct, there is only one thing that need be right. Therefore, I am correct.



That's wrong, and you damn well know that's wrong. Math and science are proven every time you make a keystroke. Technology is not possible without science, so don't pretend technology is hypothetical.



Why?



I start with the assumption there are no unicorns in my pocket. I go check my pocket, and come to the conclusion that there are no unicorns in my pocket. Have I committed some logical fallacy?

You clearly don't understand what circular reasoning is.



Firstly, this is a demonstrably false presupposition.

Secondly, that's not what proverbs 1:7 says. It says "The fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge"

Thirdly, that is contradicted by:
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7
God is Love. 1 John 4:8
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18



This is just goofy preacher talk.

Most of the world doesn't believe in your god, and yet most of the world understands nature better than you.



One of the stupidest things I've ever heard.



FAIL.

The only reason Muslims say that Allah is the only way, is because he said so himself. If he hadn't said so, they wouldn't be saying so.



That's just more presuppositional apologetics. You start from the position "nothing is possible without my god" (without ever proving it), then you stick your fingers in your ears and shit out of your face hole.

Google Matt Dillahunty VS Sye Ten Bruggencate (who I believe is the founder of your cherished "answers in genesis"), and you'll find a debate that disproves your garbage world view.

Or you can shovel more circles of nonsense into your mind straight from the asshole your hero Jason Lisle. Given your track record, I'm betting on the latter.

You do remember he's a ~ 15 year old kid, right?

He's never had a class in logic, he has no clue why we keep pointing out that he's wrong, because he has no clue that the people he is using as sources are a combination of hucksters and morons, etc...as far as he knows, its just "he said/she said" going on.

Until he reaches the point where he starts to think for himself instead of regurgitating up these platitudinous poisoned pablum propaganda pastes, he will never examine what he is saying enough to actually understand what he's actually saying.

I'd like him to have the time to feel his way though the process w/o being whipped too harshly for mistakes...just enough to get that he screwed up again, but not so badly that he doesn't care why anymore.

IE: A slap on the wrist for mistakes, and instruction on how to not make the mistake again.


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Old 02-06-2015, 01:08 AM #4861
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nothing wrong with the bible. Usabro just doesn't know how to defend it. Mama mia I gotta stop reading this thread
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Old 02-06-2015, 01:18 AM #4862
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Nothing wrong with the bible. Usabro just doesn't know how to defend it. Mama mia I gotta stop reading this thread
I know what you mean, it is painful to catch up on what's going on here, I have to have a few drinks to be able to read it. The bull shit piles up so fast I have to put on my snow shoes and go outside before I open this thread.

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Old 02-06-2015, 01:27 AM #4863
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Theres a reason I don't get too deep with my discussions on this thread. I would spend too long on it XD.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:58 AM #4864
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Imagine that.
Evolution in Action: Lizard Moving From Eggs to Live Birth

Whats wrong with the bible isnt usabros poor defense of the text, its the maniacle despot main character.
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