Old 02-03-2015, 04:38 PM #4817
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
But Jesus started everything, you see read this. Col. 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church."
LOL

Yup, the book they wrote to hi-jack Jesus says they made him in charge of the Catholic Church.

How many OTHER JEWS did the Catholic Church make in charge BTW?





AGAIN - THINK about where that bible came from, the one you have...every word in it.

If it has words that are not in it, where did THOSE words come from?


The CHURCH is where ALL of the Christian "Bibles" came from....and from where all the "Old Testament" parts came from that are written as "The Old Testament".

The Jewish version was not called "The Bible", it was the Tanakh and the Talmud. The Torah would be the modern Tanakh.

Its NOT the same words, even with translation leniency, as "The Old Testament".

The words the "Old Testament" is claiming, and the stories, have differences that can be traced to the need to "edit them" and make them tell the story that was desired to be told, meshing better with the NEW Testament.

The CHURCH edited the words of the Talmud and Tanakh to make it work better for them.


So - YOUR bible's stories, etc, came from the Catholic Church...as THEY are the ones, the ONLY ONES, who had monks write it all down to MAKE A BIBLE.


If you don't trust the "CHURCH" then you don't trust what the CHURCH gave you.

(If logical)



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Old 02-03-2015, 05:27 PM #4818
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
But Jesus started everything, you see read this. Col. 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church."
This is the classic chicken and egg dilemma.

You say Jesus started it... right?

Well guess what... Jesus didn't write the bible. The bible you're now referencing. Who wrote it? THE CHURCH. The church made up of regular, fallible, self serving people.

Like it or not (apparently not) the Catholic Church is Christianity, and was created by men... and Jesus was a Jew who never professed anything but being a jew.

So if you're truly a follower of christ... time to put on the kippah.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:18 AM #4819
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

The Church had many internal fights over what should, and what should not, be IN "The Bible". In once such fight, at the First Council of Nicaea, Santa Claus (Well, he wasn't known as Santa yet...) PUNCHED another member over a disagreement about this.

They had not yet VOTED on whether Jesus was to have been God's SON, or, God in human form, or, created out of nothing.....this was a subject of violent disagreement.

When the one side "won", they exiled the losers, and burned the books and documents that supported the "other" positions.

They also voted to not have Easter following ~ 3 days after the "Last Supper" when Jesus was supposed to have had his last meal...because it followed the Jewish calendar...and to pick a lunar month and that would coincide with Roman Holiday lunar traditions. (Many centuries later, they changed it again...to a different day altogether)

They voted on a bunch of stuff Emperor Constantine had also ordered them to, settled some stuff, and left others unsettled for a really long time. After they all finally came up with a consistent plan, Constantine "converted"....and ~ 50 bibles were written.

Roman Catholics assert that the idea of Christ's deity was ultimately confirmed by the Bishop of Rome, and that it was this confirmation that gave the council its influence and authority. In support of this, they cite the position of early fathers and their expression of the need for all churches to agree with Rome.

So, ROME is why there is "Christianity" as we know it today.

Read your bible, every (EVERY) word of it is there because the CATHOLIC CHURCH put it there....so, do you trust them?


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Old 02-04-2015, 03:38 AM #4820
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It's pretty ironic that Charles Townes, "best known as the "inventor" of the laser", had a "fascination with spirituality" and said...
Argument from authority.

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I wouldn't consider myself racist, however, middle-eastern people have been known to terrorize, so imo, why go near any of them, even if there nice.
Every time I hear "I'm not racist, but..." It is always followed by something extremely racist. This is no exception.

Are you proud of yourself? Is this what your Jesus would want?

It might surprise you to know JESUS WAS FROM THE MIDDLE-EAST.

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But Jesus started everything
LAWL, the religious fundamentalist just forgot the ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT, everybody!
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:16 AM #4821
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm sure a lot of middle eastern people would consider americans as terrorists.

Its all a matter of perspective.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:20 AM #4822
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Argument from authority.
I disagree.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:42 AM #4823
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I disagree.
I was gonna ask you to elaborate, but you can't. That's really the best you can do. You can disagree with a definition all you want, I don't care. You're just going to look silly
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:43 AM #4824
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Fallicies of definition
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:06 AM #4825
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I disagree.
I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Before, you used to post reasons for your beliefs, and at least attempts to justify them.

Now, you seem to have just lapsed into waiting for someone to say things like "The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born", and then just saying "I disagree".


I could be off base, as this is speculation on my part, but, you seem like a decent guy. I think you have been taught that to BE a decent guy, you must "keep the faith, no matter what". So, its a part of you that you don't want to change, or see a need to change, and, it makes you feel good to be faithful, etc. Obviously, its ALWAYS a matter of degree as to "No Matter What" will mean to you, or anyone else...as no one I know at least is capable of blindly accepting all of it, even if they claim to....but, generally, the more you are faithful, the better you might feel. IE: If your own life experiences and interpretations of them lead you to abandon your faith in some areas, you will, and merely keep god for the areas where you don't have another interpretation.

The problem is that we have a collision of two way of looking at the world...and, the two view points are simply in conflict.

For example, some of us are obviously looking at the world from the perspective of verifiable facts, and, some of us are looking at the world from the perspective of magic.

Some of us don't believe in ghosts or spirits or gods or goddesses, and, some of us do.

Those of us who do not believe in supernatural beings, tend to look at the world from that fact based perspective.

Those of us who DO believe in supernatural beings, tend to look at the world from an emotion based perspective.


If you believe in supernatural beings, perhaps because you believe you saw a ghost, or experienced a supernatural event or presence, or simply believe what others told you, your version of the world will simply be different.

If you don't believe in supernatural beings, perhaps for analogous reasons (NOT seeing ghosts or supernatural events, etc, believing what you were told, etc), YOUR version of the world will simply be different.


Its not going to be realistic for one side to convince the other side to change sides, as the OTHER side's view will seem too farfetched.


So, what happens is that the side with verifiable facts that supports their position and the side that has no verifiable facts, but, instead, feelings, don't have a way to "weight" their evidence.


The "feelings" people "know" what they feel. The "facts" people know what they know.

How does one weight the validity of a feeling over a fact?

We have all seen movies, etc, where the hero has a gut instinct, even though "the facts" don't prove it...but, in the end, he's proved right, etc.

We have all seen movies, etc, where the hero has figured out what's going on, based on his interpretation of the facts, but, no one else seems to get it.


After that, it seems to come down to fear-based criteria. Those who are higher on the fear-based scale NEED for there to be no gaps, because gaps are potentially dangerous (What you don't know can hurt you, etc...). In case its an unfamiliar term, fear-based criteria has nothing to do with bravery or cowardice, it has to do with how a person views the world, and how they tend to prioritize activities. The more fear-based, the more likely to prioritize things that are protective, such as prepping for disasters, seeing patterns in random arrangements, or investing more conservatively, etc. Its a genetic predisposition towards that viewpoint.

So, if science hasn't answered a question, perhaps why the tides go in and out, then, you might just say, oh, THAT must be god doing it then. The gap is filled, and you can move on.


If able to tolerate the concept of not knowing, and able to objectively research questions instead of plugging god in when you don't understand how something works...you might find out it was the moon's gravity that was making the tides go in and out...and, if god HAD BEEN your explanation, you can now replace god with gravity.

Mankind has done this exact thing throughout history....its god, until its found out what it really is.


Now, if you are not the kind of person who is predisposed to taking god back out when not needed anymore, because you're a good person, and you were taught a good person MUST believe "Its GOD!", then, you may be unable to make yourself take god back out, and, it will STILL be god in your gaps.


Your life can go on of course, unless you are a physicist needing to use gravity for work, etc...either way, it probably will not change anything for you one way or the other.

The conflicts will arise when you tell someone who has already plugged in gravity that its god.

ALL you can say is you know in your heart of hearts that its god....and all they can say is that they know in their text books and experiments that its gravity.


Its unlikely that either side will be able to convince the other, unless either side has their own "Eureka Moment"....and finds god, or, gravity.





PS - I am NOT saying you don't believe in gravity...I'm using gravity as a stand-in for things that are god until they are not, just as a concept. Everyone has their own, personal, "gravity(s)". Where YOU fall on the scale AND where I fall on the scale, will dictate where OUR personal choices to plug in god, or, the alternatives, or even blank spaces with no answer, will go.

The hardest ones are the ones where a blank answer would go. Even for scientists; that's human nature. This is where hypotheses, etc, come into play...guesses as to what MIGHT go there, etc....as placeholders so to speak.


Does this ring true?

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Old 02-04-2015, 12:40 PM #4826
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Some of it, I am a "decent guy" , but I don't hold to the mindset "keep the faith, no matter what". Contrary to some "New Atheism" arguments, our faith isn't called to be a blind faith, in it's true form it's a reasoned faith, and if a day comes that I find my own faith unreasonable I will lose it. Also religion and science aren't at odds, many including myself, view the search for a greater understanding of nature as an act of worship. Now looking at humanities advancements, although we've learned many known unknowns, we've also learned of many more known unknowns, in view of this the possibility certainly exists for Jesus/God's divinity to be genuine.

And my argument devolution, or evolution, whichever you prefer, comes from the idea that the main players in this thread all have access to the same information, we evaluate and see it differently. There will be times when I will throw in 2 cents, but won't try to "spoon feed" when it isn't asked for.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:03 PM #4827
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Some of it, I am a "decent guy" , but I don't hold to the mindset "keep the faith, no matter what". Contrary to some "New Atheism" arguments, our faith isn't called to be a blind faith, in it's true form it's a reasoned faith, and if a day comes that I find my own faith unreasonable I will lose it. Also religion and science aren't at odds, many including myself, view the search for a greater understanding of nature as an act of worship. Now looking at humanities advancements, although we've learned many known unknowns, we've also learned of many more known unknowns, in view of this the possibility certainly exists for Jesus/God's divinity to be genuine.

And my argument devolution, or evolution, whichever you prefer, comes from the idea that the main players in this thread all have access to the same information, we evaluate and see it differently. There will be times when I will throw in 2 cents, but won't try to "spoon feed" when it isn't asked for.

OK, sounds like you and I are 100% in agreement actually.

I thank you for giving more definition to where your beliefs tail off to logic though, that is always helpful in understanding where someone comes from.


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Old 02-04-2015, 06:25 PM #4828
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That damn Evolution keeps showing up! Must be hell for the Churches to explain...
Sea Slug has Taken Genes from the Algae it Eats, Allowing it to Photosynthesize Like a Plant, Study Reports « @mbl

"This biological adaptation is also a mechanism of rapid evolution, Pierce says. “When a successful transfer of genes between species occurs, evolution can basically happen from one generation to the next,” he notes, rather than over an evolutionary time scale of thousands of years."
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:36 PM #4829
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Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
That damn Evolution keeps showing up! Must be hell for the Churches to explain...
Sea Slug has Taken Genes from the Algae it Eats, Allowing it to Photosynthesize Like a Plant, Study Reports « @mbl

"This biological adaptation is also a mechanism of rapid evolution, Pierce says. “When a successful transfer of genes between species occurs, evolution can basically happen from one generation to the next,” he notes, rather than over an evolutionary time scale of thousands of years."
This is some ways potentially more analogous to the way E. coli live in our digestive systems, and provide us with nutrients (vitamin K's for example) that we cannot synthesize on our own.
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:42 PM #4830
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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This is some ways potentially more analogous to the way E. coli live in our digestive systems, and provide us with nutrients (vitamin K's for example) that we cannot synthesize on our own.
Hopefully in the future our bodies will be able to synthesize the process without the need of outside sources...

Also just for fun...
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:22 PM #4831
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Also just for fun...
Well our atmosphere used to do a good job protecting use from the cancer causing wavelengths but then we had to go all industrial and ruin that.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:33 PM #4832
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I don't hold to the mindset "keep the faith, no matter what".
I disagree.
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