Old 01-22-2015, 03:22 AM #4657
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Why though? Why does God need us? What does the supposed almighty creator of everything need with comparatively limited humans?

And if God needs us, why does he not appear to the entire human race and plainly state his desires?


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Old 01-22-2015, 04:18 AM #4658
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
God wants me to live for his will.
Since god is all-powerful and all-knowing, isn't using someone as flawed as yourself a crappy move?

"Gods will" enacted by people often leads to genocide. Why is that?
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:11 AM #4659
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It's a test of faith surely.

But then why does an all knowing god need to test us? Shouldn't he know the answer already?
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:23 AM #4660
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The most unloving thing a Christian can do is not share the gospel.
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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
This is a contradiction of the above. You seem to think people will be "judged by the life they have been given", so why would you risk their immortal soul by telling them about Jesus? If they reject him, even for logical reasons, you've basically sent them to hell.
Hardly... For a Christian it is their obligation to evangelize and spread the word of God (or however you prefer to coin the term). It is foolish to think that in today's society a particular individual has not heard of Jesus. It is no fault of the preacher for sending the preached to hell. On the contrary, it would be entirely the fault of the listener, just as it would be the fault of the listener if he or she accepts Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Since god is all-powerful and all-knowing, isn't using someone as flawed as yourself a crappy move?
*giggle

Mark 2:17 - It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
"Allah's will" enacted by 'severely delusional adherents' often leads to genocide.
Fixed that for you. (Note: It is not my intention to offend anyone who may be of an Islamic back-round, the operative phrase here is 'severely delusional adherents', I.e. they where misguided.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Why is that?
Let us not forget that all the biggest genocides in history were by atheists. You may say that Hitler was born a Catholic, but he was a self proclaimed atheist who strongly opposed Christianity.

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Seems like USAbro's god is a bit of a psychopath doesn't it?
The above edited quote seems like a much more appropriate conclusion.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
No I'd try to stop it,
Let's get this straight for just a brief moment. You believe in a God but you are not religious. You believe in the bible, but only parts of it. You believe that EVERYTHING that happens is GOD'S WILL, and yet you would have the audacity to interfere with GOD'S WILL. What denomination do you consider to be under? Or do you believe yourself to be under your own category?

There are so many contradictions and misleading information that emanates from your keyboard that my head hurts. Hence, your point-of-view is not a good example for others who are Christian. It makes it incredibly easy for atheists such as the above to tear apart religion in general.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Ignorance isn't the answer, this should be self evident.
Ignorance is bliss. It allows oneself to be attached to no such obligation. However, many believe that willful ignorance is one of the most damnable qualities of humanity. By what measurement though? Surely this statement cannot apply to all faculties and 'truths' of life (honestly, what is truth). No, people should believe what they want to believe regardless of what is actually the truth.
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:39 AM #4661
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by will manners View Post
Hardly... For a Christian it is their obligation to evangelize and spread the word of God (or however you prefer to coin the term). It is foolish to think that in today's society a particular individual has not heard of Jesus. It is no fault of the preacher for sending the preached to hell. On the contrary, it would be entirely the fault of the listener, just as it would be the fault of the listener if he or she accepts Jesus.


*giggle

Mark 2:17 - It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.



Fixed that for you. (Note: It is not my intention to offend anyone who may be of an Islamic back-round, the operative phrase here is 'severely delusional adherents', I.e. they where misguided.)



Let us not forget that all the biggest genocides in history were by atheists. You may say that Hitler was born a Catholic, but he was a self proclaimed atheist who strongly opposed Christianity.



The above edited quote seems like a much more appropriate conclusion.



Let's get this straight for just a brief moment. You believe in a God but you are not religious. You believe in the bible, but only parts of it. You believe that EVERYTHING that happens is GOD'S WILL, and yet you would have the audacity to interfere with GOD'S WILL. What denomination do you consider to be under? Or do you believe yourself to be under your own category?

There are so many contradictions and misleading information that emanates from your keyboard that my head hurts. Hence, your point-of-view is not a good example for others who are Christian. It makes it incredibly easy for atheists such as the above to tear apart religion in general.



Ignorance is bliss. It allows oneself to be attached to no such obligation. However, many believe that willful ignorance is one of the most damnable qualities of humanity. By what measurement though? Surely this statement cannot apply to all faculties and 'truths' of life (honestly, what is truth). No, people should believe what they want to believe regardless of what is actually the truth.


Just a clarification: Hitler was not an atheist. That was propaganda designed to further dehumanize him. He was a devout catholic. He spent a lot of time having his people collect religious relics, such as the sword of the nail, etc, as he believed it would give him divine powers. (Atheists do not believe in divine powers, etc)


Also NONE of the biggest genocides in history, if ANY, were by atheists.

The Crusades, Bosnia, Serbia, Rwanda, and so forth...no Atheists.


Of course, more mass murders and genocides were carried out by people who were not atheists as well.

Even MORE mass murders and genocides were planned AND carried out by people who had drank milk as a child. (Food for thought)





IE: Some people have a tendency to be very very threatened if their beliefs are challenged. It gets to be "their team" and, they get very very defensive.

For a secular example, watch Phillies fans and Mets fans, say at a Phillies (Baseball) game....they can get into fist fights. In other countries, football (soccer) fans often get into the same predicament.

If I say I am rooting for the Mets, and you say you are rooting for the Phillies, why on earth would we come to blows over our disagreement on who to root for?

What IS it in our collective psyche that makes this happen?


WHAT is it that makes humans need to make the OTHER humans agree with them?


I think its an ancient form of xenophobia and tribal/pack mentality. In a nut shell: "You're either for us, or against us"

If you feel someone is "against you", that is threatening.


Some people are on one end of a sliding scale related to how they perceive threats, and, some people are at the other end....etc. (We're all different)

Those who are "fear driven" (DOESN'T mean "chicken" or not brave) tend to prioritize activities and thoughts that are protective. Preppers for example will spend a lot of time and resources being prepared for a disaster that other people see as so remotely unlikely that they don't do ANYTHING about it. The preppers might have a machine gun nest on their roof, food and ammo to last for years, armor on their 4x4, etc.

Others, in the middle, might have a flashlight and spare batteries, a few gal of water, some canned goods, etc.

At the far end will be those with nothing, and they show up at 1 am at Walmart to buy a flashlight and some breakfast bars and bottled water just AFTER the hurricane slammed them. (They were not fear driven)


There's genes for this behavior. Depending on your degree of activation, you will be born more, or less, fear driven.

The more fear driven you are, the more you are likely to be one of those guys getting into a fist fight over which baseball/soccer team is "better".


The more fear driven you are, the more likely you are to be religious. Studies of these connections show that while it is a sliding scale, the tendencies are in close correlation.


So, we kill each other in wars/mass genocides, etc...because, mostly, political figures/those with power, want something, and, use religion or other common belief they'd defend, to manipulate the masses to get it.

Humans have been dragged about by their religious nose rings by those with power for pretty much all of recorded history. Those in power COUNT ON this human nature to help them get what they want. The poor shlubs who's country/ethnicity that is ATTACKED get dragged into it whether they would have wanted to or not. For the same reason...your neighbors are rushing to defend their cause, and you're NOT participating? You are a traitor? That's typically punishable by death (Soldiers/those faced with genocide, etc, never get to decide what THEY think is best, its do or die).


If an ancient tribe, it was the same....if every one DOESN'T fight TOGETHER, the TRIBE is doomed. Those who think its a dumb idea, and prefer moving the farms to fighting for this land, etc...are then killed by their own tribe, or, the one that wins, etc...if everyone is fighting, you'd better pitch in "Or your against us".


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Old 01-22-2015, 11:41 AM #4662
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Since god is all-powerful and all-knowing, isn't using someone as flawed as yourself a crappy move?

LOL

"God Created Man in His Own Image"

The answer to your query was in the bible.




God made men to be like him, and wants them to worship him and believe in him and make sacrifices for him.....and, that implies that WE all have the same needs, we just can't ask the same way.

So, sure, its a crappy template for a supreme being, but, I think it was a reverse casted mold that was used.

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Old 01-22-2015, 02:07 PM #4663
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
Why though? Why does God need us? What does the supposed almighty creator of everything need with comparatively limited humans?

And if God needs us, why does he not appear to the entire human race and plainly state his desires?
Why would I need to know? I just do what he says. He created me, imo, so I think I should do what he says, as well as I can. He didn't need us, but he decided he WANTED a people, that could identify with him, (same type of logical mind, although his is superior) and worship him with a free will.

However, I'd say good for you for judging the one who created you.
I suppose he could have just made robots that bow down for him and worship him. But it wouldn't really be real worship if it wasn't free will. He wanted people to worship him freely, he gave them a free will (choice to sin/not to sin). They chose to sin but he still wanted them so he preserved them (through Noah's family) and found a way to fix the sin (Jesus dying on the cross).

@Will Manners. I consider myself non-denomonational. My church is that way. There's no reason for a cult or sect. I just believe the Bible. Yes I believe the entire Bible but it must be interpreted and read correctly.

I must say that everything said in this thread, is purely opinion, people here seem to think they are 100% sure of what they believe, some have even said it, and you have to be not thinking straight to believe that. 99.999999999% is fine with me, but 100% means it is true, not in your opinion it is true.

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Old 01-22-2015, 03:48 PM #4664
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Why would I need to know? I just do what he says. He created me, imo, so I think I should do what he says, as well as I can. He didn't need us, but he decided he WANTED a people, that could identify with him, (same type of logical mind, although his is superior) and worship him with a free will.

However, I'd say good for you for judging the one who created you.
I suppose he could have just made robots that bow down for him and worship him. But it wouldn't really be real worship if it wasn't free will. He wanted people to worship him freely, he gave them a free will (choice to sin/not to sin). They chose to sin but he still wanted them so he preserved them (through Noah's family) and found a way to fix the sin (Jesus dying on the cross).

@Will Manners. I consider myself non-denomonational. My church is that way. There's no reason for a cult or sect. I just believe the Bible. Yes I believe the entire Bible but it must be interpreted and read correctly.

I must say that everything said in this thread, is purely opinion, people here seem to think they are 100% sure of what they believe, some have even said it, and you have to be not thinking straight to believe that. 99.999999999% is fine with me, but 100% means it is true, not in your opinion it is true.


OK, this is one of your more thought out replies, and, you get kudos for that!




I'm trying to make sense out of a few things you've said when explaining your individual religion.

The givens, so far, If I understand you correctly:

1) You believe the bible is 100% true, and try to follow it to the letter. (Based upon the correct interpretation)

2) You believe that god has a plan for you, and, whatever happens to you, it is god's will.

3) You believe that you have free will, and, no one is making you do anything...your actions are all your choice.

4) You believe that the sins of Adam and Eve (Original Sin) apply to you.

5) You believe that Jesus died on the cross, to forgive you for that Original Sin.

6) You believe there is a heaven, where you go if good, and a hell, where you go if bad. (After you die)

7) You believe there is a Devil. You believe the Devil is a supernatural immortal being that is powerful enough to challenge god. You believe that there will be an end time where that confrontation will take place.

8) You believe that a good person would go to heaven if he never heard of Jesus, but, that if he even HEARD OF Jesus, he would go to hell if that wasn't enough to convince him to believe that Jesus was his lord and savior.

9) You believe that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one, and, that you personally will go to heaven because of your adherence to it.

10) You believe that others who have a different interpretation will go to hell.

11) You believe that god could have made robots who bow down to him, but wanted people to worship him of their own free will.

12) You believe that God created a special place to torture people for all eternity if they did NOT worship him (Of their own free will).

13) You believe god created a special place to eternally reward people who worshiped him (Of their own free will).

14) You believe that the Devil used to be an angel, and, was sent to Hell for disagreeing with god/wanting to be a god, etc...but, put in charge of Hell, and then allowed to recruit demons and so forth and try to steal souls, etc....and is in charge of torturing them for NOT BELIEVING IN GOD.

15) You believe that throwing virgins into a volcano is not a reasonable way to worship god.

16) You believe that the things god said you must do/not do in the Old Testament do NOT apply.

17) You believe that the things god said to do/not do in the New Testament DO apply, except where the New Testament said to adhere to the things in the Old Testament.

18) You believe that the Earth is about 6,500 years old, and that the story of Noah is true, and that the entire earth was under at least 5.5 miles of water during a worldwide flood (That is the depth to cover the tallest mountains above sea level), and that dinosaurs and man walked the earth at the same time.


Would you say this is accurate, and reflects your beliefs?

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Old 01-22-2015, 04:08 PM #4665
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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It is foolish to think that in today's society a particular individual has not heard of Jesus.
Wait a minute. That's OUR position! "U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! Wait... there are other countries in the world?" I thought Australians knew better.

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It is no fault of the preacher for sending the preached to hell.
Option 1: Preach to the poor African in a remote-village. Chances are good he will go to hell because fewer than 10% of people convert religion in their lifetime (unless violence is involved).
Option 2: leave the poor African in a remote-village alone. Chances are good he will go to heaven because he isn't a douche canoe.

You could argue "its their own fault," but if the goal of Christians is to save someone else's everlasting soul, statistics says you should leave them alone.

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Originally Posted by will manners View Post
Let us not forget that all the biggest genocides in history were by atheists.
We could debate the religiosity of the nazi party for pages, but killing someone for your god is easily established (they'll say they killed for their god). People have many reasons to kill, but "because there is no god" is very seldom (if ever) one of them.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
He wanted people to worship him
Why?

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I just do what [god] says...
Just like every other monotheist. Yet you all disagree on what he says.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I just believe the Bible. Yes I believe the entire Bible but it must be interpreted and read correctly.
Just like every other christian, yet you all come to different conclusions about what the bible says.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I must say that everything said in this thread, is purely opinion
INCLUDING what god's will is.

Isn't that a problem?
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Last edited by Cyparagon; 01-22-2015 at 04:08 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:14 PM #4666
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
OK, this is one of your more thought out replies, and, you get kudos for that!




I'm trying to make sense out of a few things you've said when explaining your individual religion.

The givens, so far, If I understand you correctly:

1) You believe the bible is 100% true, and try to follow it to the letter. (Based upon the correct interpretation)

2) You believe that god has a plan for you, and, whatever happens to you, it is god's will.

3) You believe that you have free will, and, no one is making you do anything...your actions are all your choice.

4) You believe that the sins of Adam and Eve (Original Sin) apply to you.

5) You believe that Jesus died on the cross, to forgive you for that Original Sin.

6) You believe there is a heaven, where you go if good, and a hell, where you go if bad. (After you die)

7) You believe there is a Devil. You believe the Devil is a supernatural immortal being that is powerful enough to challenge god. You believe that there will be an end time where that confrontation will take place.

8) You believe that a good person would go to heaven if he never heard of Jesus, but, that if he even HEARD OF Jesus, he would go to hell if that wasn't enough to convince him to believe that Jesus was his lord and savior.

9) You believe that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one, and, that you personally will go to heaven because of your adherence to it.

10) You believe that others who have a different interpretation will go to hell.

11) You believe that god could have made robots who bow down to him, but wanted people to worship him of their own free will.

12) You believe that God created a special place to torture people for all eternity if they did NOT worship him (Of their own free will).

13) You believe god created a special place to eternally reward people who worshiped him (Of their own free will).

14) You believe that the Devil used to be an angel, and, was sent to Hell for disagreeing with god/wanting to be a god, etc...but, put in charge of Hell, and then allowed to recruit demons and so forth and try to steal souls, etc....and is in charge of torturing them for NOT BELIEVING IN GOD.

15) You believe that throwing virgins into a volcano is not a reasonable way to worship god.



Would you say this is accurate, and reflects your beliefs?
A lot of that is head on, but the devil was created by God. He was an angel. He fell away from God. Just like you said; but he is not immortal.

I don't believe if your good you go to heaven and vice versa. I believe that because Jesus was good you go to heaven, if you believe he was good instead of you.
A lot of Christians hold my perspective. In fact, I haven't come across a Christian who doesn't.

Ask TheDukeAmber, I bet he believes a least most of what I said.

@Cyparagon-Why should I know why he wanted worship? Am I god myself? The created should not be arguing with the creator.

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Old 01-22-2015, 04:31 PM #4667
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
A lot of that is head on, but the devil was created by God. He was an angel. He fell away from God. Just like you said; but he is not immortal.

I don't believe if your good you go to heaven and vice versa. I believe that because Jesus was good you go to heaven, if you believe he was good instead of you.
A lot of Christians hold my perspective. In fact, I haven't come across a Christian who doesn't.

Ask TheDukeAmber, I bet he believes a least most of what I said.

I never said god didn't create the devil, so, still 100%. As the Devil was around for thousands of years according to the bible, I'd say that counts as immortal...and, angels don't die of old age, so, they are all immortal.

I think the good, but not accepting Jesus section, and going to hell, also covered the good but go to hell part, so, still 100%.


OK, so everything is 100% spot on. Good, that helps to move forward.

Consider:

Does everything being god's will, and also being your will, seem to be at odds to you, a little bit?

I mean, if god has a plan for you, and whatever happens is GOD'S will, are you REALLY exercising free will? Isn't it all preordained?

IE: YOU choose to cross the street, and, a car hits you. Was that your free will, or, god's plan for you?

Is it always BOTH?

If it is always both, then, what exactly is the difference?


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Old 01-22-2015, 04:37 PM #4668
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 01-22-2015, 04:43 PM #4669
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Chances are good he will go to heaven because he isn't a douche canoe.
If you have a basis for this belief I would love to hear it.

@ USAbro

I believe most of those 18 to an extend but each one could be a lengthy topic of debate on it's own and is not so simply stated. One thing that sticks out to me though is the 6500yrs old earth. The earth is not 6500 years old.

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Also NONE of the biggest genocides in history, if ANY, were by atheists.
Stalin?


Note to LPF atheists, if my presence in this thread is not appreciated just let me know, I don't want to waste either of our time anymore.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:56 PM #4670
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I never said god didn't create the devil, so, still 100%. As the Devil was around for thousands of years according to the bible, I'd say that counts as immortal...and, angels don't die of old age, so, they are all immortal.

I think the good, but not accepting Jesus section, and going to hell, also covered the good but go to hell part, so, still 100%.


OK, so everything is 100% spot on. Good, that helps to move forward.

Consider:

Does everything being god's will, and also being your will, seem to be at odds to you, a little bit?

On the same not as Duke, if this discussion is wasting time let me know, I've spent hours discussing this an need to know if I'm wasting my time.

I mean, if god has a plan for you, and whatever happens is GOD'S will, are you REALLY exercising free will? Isn't it all preordained?

IE: YOU choose to cross the street, and, a car hits you. Was that your free will, or, god's plan for you?

Is it always BOTH?

If it is always both, then, what exactly is the difference?

tbh right now, I've had that question myself. Everything in history has happened one way or another and can't be changed, isn't the future predestined? I actually came up with a postulate and asked my youth pastor and am still confused.
Don't attack me now.

@Duke-I didn't even see that one, sorry. Yeah I'm not so sure about the earth being that young either.

On the same note as Duke, am I wasting my time? Let me know if I'm wasting my time because I've spent hours discussing this and I need to know if it's just a waste so I can stop.

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Old 01-22-2015, 05:04 PM #4671
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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However, I'd say good for you for judging the one who created you.
God didn't create me, my mother did.
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:06 PM #4672
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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God didn't create me, my mother did.
But that goes against what God says in his Bible when David states, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." Psalm 139:13

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