Old 01-17-2015, 03:24 PM #4529
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Reasons To Believe : Where Modern Science & Faith Converge

I would like to share this site as a resource to both christian and non-believers. I discovered it about two weeks ago and have found some time to read through several of the articles. It covers many topics logically and rationally with cited sources. As a believer I've found it to be enjoyable reading and enlightening. To the non-believers, at the very least I hope it would make our faith seem not so irrational to you.


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Old 01-17-2015, 07:14 PM #4530
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I pray and that's not a ritual. I just talk to God. I don't recite any prayers, I just talk to God like I would talk to someone else.

No I haven't been baptized yet.

No he doesn't read with a commentary. My church has multiple pastors.

I rarely take communion, maybe once 5 years ago.

No I don't perform any sign of the cross, that's a ritual and it's stupid.

No I don't do anything about lent.

I do pay 10% tithe maybe you consider that a ritual.


Cyp-Quit the neg repping. That should not be allowed in this thread, as everything here is opinion.

Cyp-You may be sorry for negging later. I don't like people like you, and I have my ways of dealing with them. Have fun, I'm not negging you cause it's not nice to in this thread.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:17 PM #4531
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Reasons To Believe : Where Modern Science & Faith Converge

I would like to share this site as a resource to both christian and non-believers. I discovered it about two weeks ago and have found some time to read through several of the articles. It covers many topics logically and rationally with cited sources. As a believer I've found it to be enjoyable reading and enlightening. To the non-believers, at the very least I hope it would make our faith seem not so irrational to you.
Hmmm.

I'll refer to this one, for example, which is about as applicable as any of the others:

Reasons To Believe : Gamma Ray Burst Research Reveals Fine-tuning

It has some science references, but, then does about what all of the other similar articles do, it jumps to a conclusion along the lines of "How is it that the water in the puddle is the EXACT shape of the hole in the ground the puddle is resting in? SURELY that means that SOME HIGHER POWER must have designed this, as its too much of a coincidence to have happened by chance."

So, its not what you think it is...unless looking for more lies/deceptions designed to pacify the need to acknowledge knowledge w/o really internalizing it, is the objective?



So, while the articles do cite sources, its the moral equivalent of saying there are fire breathing dragons that eat spicy tacos 3 times/day.

And the references explain the reason 3 meals a day are healthy, that tacos exist, and that fire exists, maybe some examples of fire burning things or cooking tacos, charts showing the capsaicin vs Scoville Scale, and, things that happen 3x/day, etc...

...but always leave out the citation that proves dragons exist.




On the other hand, this one, from the same set of articles, actually discusses the ridiculousness of the creationists in a reasonably logical manner, and, essentially argues that people SHOULD learn more about science to to help understand the reasons that some arguments make no sense/misapply the knowledge and come to the wrong conclusions, etc.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/evid...made-of-cheese

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Old 01-17-2015, 09:34 PM #4532
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Interesting, I've read several articles and am investigating the site further, I gave it weeks before I went ahead and posted it here as a decent source of information and ideas. You seemed to have already made up your mind about the whole site in less than 4 hours and "cherry picked" two articles that further your own beliefs. What gives?
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Old 01-17-2015, 09:54 PM #4533
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Interesting, I've read several articles and am investigating the site further, I gave it weeks before I went ahead and posted it here as a decent source of information and ideas. You seemed to have already made up your mind about the whole site in less than 4 hours and "cherry picked" two articles that further your own beliefs. What gives?
Um, I picked two as examples, one of the problem with the false conclusions, and the other I picked because it was more accurate.

IE: I picked one showing the problems, and, one showing the promise of usefulness.

That's not cherry picking to further my own beliefs, that's the opposite...showing the range of usefulness of the articles...both extremes.

I speed read with high comprehension, so, it takes me very little time to read short articles like that that only discuss very basic science that I am familiar with.

If it was new information, I would take longer to read it and internalize it. If its old stuff about how long it takes light to get from stars or the big bang aspects, I already have enough familiarity to read it quickly.

If I am reading about the expanding universe and blah blah blah, and then it essentially jumps to "and GOD is why the water fits into the puddle so perfectly" - then I pause, and go back, to see if I missed a bridge, or, if it, in fact is the same old hack used by the ID people, etc.

So far, its the same tired old hack...when it tries to prove ID at least.

Some day, maybe there will be a new tack taken on ID in that regard...so, I'll wait and see if it makes more sense than the puddle-type arguments.




If you think I am imagining this, simply look for all of the "Fine-Tuning" type references, and analogous arguments, which essentially are the old puddle argument.

to refresh your memory, the "Puddle Argument" is where the author will observe that "things work out perfectly, and, if off just a hair, we would not be here, therefore, it must have been designed".

IE: The odds of the hole the puddle being the exact shape of the water that lies in it....are astronomical, and therefore, only an intelligent designer could have known the EXACT shape of the hole to make it fit that water so perfectly.


The technique takes many forms, but, the above is the basic formula.


IE: We live on a planet that has the right (temp/humidity/O2, vitamins, was hit by the meteor exactly right, or whatever...) and therefore it was intelligently designed.

The reason its not a valid argument or conclusion, is that the water flows into the hole and fills it, the hole is not designed for the water.

The hole doesn't need to be designed...the stuff filling the hole merely has to adapt to what they are poured in to. So if the planet has a lot CO2, the stuff on the planet is OK with that CO2....and it its replaced by more O2 later, the stuff that can't take the O2 dies, and, the other stuff evolves to be OK...so, after ice ages and whatever, what ever's LEFT is what fits into this "hole"....and is the water in the puddle so to speak.



Read the articles again, and, look for that thought process, and, you will see it as either a silent thread woven into the article (An implied conclusion) or an actual stated conclusion, in most of them.

I gave the "The moon is made of green cheese" example BECAUSE it DID NOT do that. I gave the other one as an example because it DID DO that.


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Old 01-17-2015, 10:10 PM #4534
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Out of curiousity, how confident are you that there exists no diety whether it be god of the Christian bible or other similar diety?
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:20 PM #4535
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Out of curiousity, how confident are you that there exists no diety whether it be god of the Christian bible or other similar diety?
If by a deity, you mean one like the "gods" or god we normally refer to, I'm pretty confident. If I see some evidence to the contrary, I might change my mind though.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:31 PM #4536
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I once had a colleague try to explain about how Earth must have been created by a superior being because (and I quote) "If Earth was 10 feet closer to the sun, we would all burn to death, and if it was 10 feet farther, we would all freeze".

The facepalm to end all facepalms.

So I proceeded to explain how Earths orbit gets closer and farther from the sun on a magnitude of several million kilometers, to which she replied: "Oh sure, use science. Don't you have any faith?"

Not in humanity thats for sure.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:32 PM #4537
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Is it possibly to define your confidence with %?
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:38 PM #4538
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

For me personally, I'm 100% confident that there is no God.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:45 PM #4539
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What makes you 100%? With all the unknowns in the cosmos why not 99%.
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Old 01-17-2015, 11:02 PM #4540
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What makes you 100%? I don't understand.
I was raised as a christian, I went to church every Sunday.
God never answered my prayers, he never answered the prayers of the entire congregation when we prayed for a member after a near-fatal heart attack.

As I grew up I became more skeptical that there was a god. Based on my experience I eventually came to the conclusion that there was none, it didn't add up, it didn't make sense. Remove god from the picture and it made sense to me.

For some people god makes sense, but it doesn't for me.
I would be telling a lie if I said I was 100% confident, I do have my doubts from time to time, but I am near 100% confident.


I am curious, can I ask you the same question? How are you confident that there is a god, and what makes you that confident?

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Old 01-17-2015, 11:12 PM #4541
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
What makes you 100%? With all the unknowns in the cosmos why not 99%.
I've yet to experience anything God-like, nor am I convinced by anyone who claims they have.

The unknowns in the universe have little to do with it for me. They're unknown simply because we haven't discovered them yet, or because we lack the capability either technologically or intellectually to understand them.
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:06 AM #4542
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ARG View Post
I am curious, can I ask you the same question? How are you confident that there is a god, and what makes you that confident?
Pretty much the same reasons as you, I'm just on the other side of the fence. My faith has been shaken at times, but I've seen god at work in my life and others, and with my own understanding of the nature of humanity and of the world, an intellegent creator makes sense to me and I believe there is credibility in the scriptures.

I see nature as like finding a sandcastle on the beach, I know someone made this, but if we only go by what we see we're left thinking the waves washed it up like that.
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Old 01-18-2015, 03:23 AM #4543
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I feel like I shouldn't even say this as it will probably only add more controversy, but it is related to the current question. Some of you will think me crazy but I know some of you already think I am anyway.

I am wondering how many of you believe in an afterlife? Christians and people of other beliefs believe we have both a physical body and a spirit body and that our spirit body goes on living after the death of our physical body. Endless millions of people have had a near death experience or seen a ghost or been visited by a family member who has passed on, etc. Because of the incredible numbers of these incidents it seems to me hard to ignore them.

The main reason I bring this up is it is what changed my thinking when I was 8 years old. As a child I attended church and didn't know if I believed or not and in fact didn't like it and thought something was wrong, when I learned to read well (6 years old) I began reading the bible. My family at that time were members of a denomination that is on the fringe of Christianity. My father though would never have anything to do with it, he was raised a Catholic, he was also a Mason and went on to become a 32nd degree Mason, if I remember right he passed on in 1992 at the age of 74. I eventually left that church in my late teens but didn't loose my faith.

My parents divorced when I was 8 years old. My father moved out and rented an apartment not too far away. It was a huge mansion 3 floors that had been converted into apartments, I think 5 apartments, there was a woman that owned the house and lived there. In 1970 my father rented a 2 bedroom apartment there for $60 a month, not an uncommon price at the time but this was a good deal, she made it clear to him that there were some problems with the house and what they were. I spent the weekend with him I think 4 times. He stayed part way into the second month and left. If I told you what went on there you would not believe it. At the time being 8 years old I found it interesting and didn't know enough to be afraid. When your 8 years old you don't know or think about death, at that age you are going to live forever. Staying in that house showed me there is an afterlife and ghosts/spirits are real. I had another experience a couple of years later that reinforced my belief and something again years later. It was this knowledge that there is an afterlife that changed my thinking and caused me to have faith.

I guess most people have never had an experience like that although it has nothing to do with weather or not God exists, but it did change my thinking about it.

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Old 01-18-2015, 12:30 PM #4544
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
.....Endless millions of people have had a near death experience or seen a ghost or been visited by a family member who has passed on, etc. Because of the incredible numbers of these incidents it seems to me hard to ignore them.....
I read a book called "DMT: the spirit molecule". the writer, (richard strassman) suggests endogenous dimethyltryptamine might be responsible for this. an induced "trip" on the stuff very often produces results so similar they cant be really be differentiated. just a thought, I dont claim its true or not. he claims DMT production in the body can spike enough to cause a trip under certain conditions. it's an interesting read, if not totally substantiated

on that note, lets all go turn ourselves in to the police, admit our crime. our bodies are producing schedule 1 substances. though the police would be guilty too, as well as the judges, prosecutors, prison guards, etc

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I see nature as like finding a sandcastle on the beach, I know someone made this, but if we only go by what we see we're left thinking the waves washed it up like that.
emergence can make some intricate structures. whenever you encounter something you never have, you should strive to see if there has been a precedent. sandcastles self forming might be unprecedanted, but few things in nature are

here's that link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
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