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Old 06-30-2009, 06:22 AM #433
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by primary View Post
what's the probability of you being alive right now?
1/hudrends of millions of sperms of your dad happened to impregnate your mom at the right time. and what's the chance of your dad meeting your mom? and your grandparents?

well the odds for YOU to be existing right now does seem pretty low, yet there are 7 billion of us.

sure the conditions necessary for life is rare, but hey, how many planets are there?
Yes, long odds for each of us individually, but a much smaller number than 1 in 10^113, the odds of one protein molecule forming at random, just one molecule let alone a single living cell and much smaller than 1 in 10^50 which is mathematical impossibility. I guess no one likes math.


Charliebruce says he has no evidence to support his points?
Primary says nothing in science is proven, they are only supported?

Now that sounds like illogical blind faith.

If evolution is a theory, unable to be proven according to Primary, isn't it funny how all the science shows present it as proven fact? Evolutionists must have an agenda just like they claim that people who believe in God do.


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Old 06-30-2009, 06:32 AM #434
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Some believe in Creation, some don't. People believe what they were taught, or what makes sense to them in their own mind...

But if you were to look at odds, I would bet that if you took all the parts of this computer and keyboard, and put them into a box and shook it up for billions of years (lets say that the parts didn't wear out), the odds of it turning into this computer the way it is right now, are better than one protein molecule forming at random.

You would much sooner get the computer, even as complex as all the parts and components of the computer are.

The complexity of life cannot be explained or even imagined. How does a child get conceived (the exact moment of conception), and then develop to be born? It is mind boggling...
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:29 AM #435
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

this is where things get interesting.

knowledge we gain from science is not absolute. nothing we learn form observation can be elevated to the status of the "truth". Science is through empiricism and inference.

Scientists don't state theories as facts, we state things as the best possible explanation with the given information.

now some people might try to convince others that evolution is the truth. it is not.
but its the best that we've got.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:24 PM #436
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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this is where things get interesting.

knowledge we gain from science is not absolute. nothing we learn form observation can be elevated to the status of the "truth". Science is through empiricism and inference.

Scientists don't state theories as facts, we state things as the best possible explanation with the given information.

now some people might try to convince others that evolution is the truth. it is not.
but its the best that we've got.
I agree with you that science is not absolute or any other pursuit of knowledge we have. I also agree with you that creationism doesn't belong in a science class. Science would simply be the wrong category unless you squeezed it into it. You could argue that creationism is both Fact and "scientific" Theory. Creationism as fact is observed in humans and other species as the act of creation we exhibit whenever we do something well..creative. A form of creationism called natural creationism doesn't come to odds with any natural laws and can be studied through interpersonal observation and empirical testing and therefore it can be "squeezed" into the category of a scientific theory. That would be lame and missing the point.

God is in most belief systems supernatural and outside the narrower scope of scientific study. Anything outside of time as some believe (self included) cannot be studied from the prospective of a person in time with the scientific method. We can only take it on faith or not that God is interacting with people in this dimension and study the effect it has on their lives and also for those who engage themselves in theological ways to evaluate the personal effects and experiances for themselves. Personally I have experienced things that cannot be explained by the current natural law and therefore appears to be supernatural. Millions of others have reported experienced things like it. Because they are supernatural they are not subject to any empirical testing within the framework of science. It is true and only true in our experiences. Is it possible that they can later be explained through natural laws that have not yet been discovered in science? Sure I keep an open mind and keep a lookout for other answers but for myself and billions of others a God of one understanding or another is the best that we've got.

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Old 06-30-2009, 08:40 PM #437
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:56 PM #438
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Funny how religious people were up in arms when evolutions was starting to be taught in schools. Now more than a decade later here's an evolutionist banging the same drum.

I personally never minded evolution being taught as long as it was taught in the context of Theory because that is what is. Not proven, not fact.

-Ryan
Likewise, I never minded creationism being taught in my school, as long as it was taught as religious story, because that is what it is. Not proven, not fact. To me, at least, evolution has been taught as a theory.

(I am not aiming to be rude by quoting you in this way, only highlighting the duality of your point.)

My point as I think you later discussed was that religion should be taught in religious education lessons (where I was taught the theory) and not in a science classroom. Whereas creationism has, to be honest, little actual explanation of the processes, and no observation or experimentation backing the hypothesis, evolution has fossil records, numerous experiments such as the one I linked to previously, mathematical models which mirror real-life observations, and an explanation of how and why this happens. It is on this basis, not on faith, that I believe that evolution is more likely to be correct, and indeed a more scientific explanation than the belief in creationism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefe View Post
Yes, long odds for each of us individually, but a much smaller number than 1 in 10^113, the odds of one protein molecule forming at random, just one molecule let alone a single living cell and much smaller than 1 in 10^50 which is mathematical impossibility. I guess no one likes math.


Charliebruce says he has no evidence to support his points?
Primary says nothing in science is proven, they are only supported?

Now that sounds like illogical blind faith.

If evolution is a theory, unable to be proven according to Primary, isn't it funny how all the science shows present it as proven fact? Evolutionists must have an agenda just like they claim that people who believe in God do.
Well, I like maths, but I don't have any accurate figures to base my model on, and so therefore can't demonstrate it. You say that 1x10^50 is an impossibility, but not when there are trillions of atoms all interacting in a primordial sea. My comment regarding not having any evidence, is that I don't have links to, or know of, any specific examples of this. It wasn't that they don't exist, only that I don't have a link to it. I'm sure people with a greater knowledge and understanding of the subject can do a better job of it than I can.

As for Primary's comment, pretty much nothing except a "perfect" mathematical model can be proven (Pythagoras' Theorem, Circle Theorems), but through repeated experimentation and observation, all other theories can be tested, and gain credibiliy through repeated accurate results. Nothing in the real-world can be proven for sure, but we can back up these theories with so much evidence supporting, and none contrary to the point that it is for all intents and purposes a theorem.

The comments regarding the chances of us being here today to have this debate (what are the chances of you being born) are forgetting one vital fact: Whether or not the chance is very low indeed, it happened, and so isn't impossible. It could just have easily been one of the "competitor" sperm that won the race, and we'd probably not even be having the discussion (if I/my "un-realised sperm brother" were more sporting for instance, I doubt (I/he/she)'d have ever got interested in lasers). That's more a philosophy question than science or religion, in my opinion.

Quote:
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I agree with you that science is not absolute or any other pursuit of knowledge we have. I also agree with you that creationism doesn't belong in a science class. Science would simply be the wrong category unless you squeezed it into it. You could argue that creationism is both Fact and "scientific" Theory. Creationism as fact is observed in humans and other species as the act of creation we exhibit whenever we do something well..creative. A form of creationism called natural creationism doesn't come to odds with any natural laws and can be studied through interpersonal observation and empirical testing and therefore it can be "squeezed" into the category of a scientific theory. That would be lame and missing the point.

God is in most belief systems supernatural and outside the narrower scope of scientific study. Anything outside of time as some believe (self included) cannot be studied from the prospective of a person in time with the scientific method. We can only take it on faith or not that God is interacting with people in this dimension and study the effect it has on their lives and also for those who engage themselves in theological ways to evaluate the personal effects and experiances for themselves. Personally I have experienced things that cannot be explained by the current natural law and therefore appears to be supernatural. Millions of others have reported experienced things like it. Because they are supernatural they are not subject to any empirical testing within the framework of science. It is true and only true in our experiences. Is it possible that they can later be explained through natural laws that have not yet been discovered in science? Sure I keep an open mind and keep a lookout for other answers but for myself and billions of others a God of one understanding or another is the best that we've got.

-Ryan
I agree 100% with that, and though I haven't ever had an experience of this type, if I did, I suspect my beliefs would be changed massively. The only issue would have with a form of creationism, is that a designer leaves more questions unanswered than pure chance does. That was a very fair summary of how everything works. Care to share any of these experiences with us? I know of a few people who have had these types of experience, and remain believers in what they saw to this day.

EDIT: Wow, I never realised how epic this post was until I just looked back

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Old 06-30-2009, 09:59 PM #439
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hey Nikokabo,

Did you know that Chuck Norris is a Christian extremist and accoring to this poster boy for athiesum an Anti-Atheist Bigot? Austin Cline, Guide for the Agnosticism / Atheism Site

you know I never thought much of Chuck till just now. Not that he is christian or extrem but the fact he isn't luke warm and stands for something. I think highly of Atheists that have a firm understanding and reasoning behind there beliefs too. Primary for instance seems to base his on firm reasoning and experiance.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:26 PM #440
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Hey Nikokabo,

Did you know that Chuck Norris is a Christian extremist and accoring to this poster boy for athiesum an Anti-Atheist Bigot? Austin Cline, Guide for the Agnosticism / Atheism Site

you know I never thought much of Chuck till just now. Not that he is christian or extrem but the fact he isn't luke warm and stands for something. I think highly of Atheists that have a firm understanding and reasoning behind there beliefs too. Primary for instance seems to base his on firm reasoning and experiance.
Yes, some members have already told me that. Doesn't matter, when I see Chuck Norris in movies I don't think about his being a christian. Do you hate Tom Cruise for being a scientologist? Of course you can hate him, but you can't deny he is a hell of an actor. Same way you can't deny Chuck Norris is the strongest man in the universe.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:16 AM #441
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Something we agree on. The bible does not support the trinity doctrine. You can thank Constantine for that one. Before he 'converted'.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:33 AM #442
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

"Well, I like maths, but I don't have any accurate figures to base my model on, and so therefore can't demonstrate it. You say that 1x10^50 is an impossibility, but not when there are trillions of atoms all interacting in a primordial sea."

I don't say that, mathematicians do. No one seems to grasp the difference in trillions, which the government throws around like monopoly money, and a 1 followed by 113 zeros!

It's also interesting what some scientists say about life forming in a primordial sea.

Richard Dickerson, a chemist said in Scientific American, “It is therefore hard to see how polymerization [linking together smaller molecules to form bigger ones] could have proceeded in the aqueous environment of the primitive ocean, since the presence of water favors depolymerization [breaking up big molecules into simpler ones] rather than polymerization.”

Biochemist George Wald, also in Scientific American, said, “Spontaneous dissolution is much more probable, and hence proceeds much more rapidly, than spontaneous synthesis.” He also said, “This isthe most stubborn problem that confronts us.”
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:17 AM #443
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^ and that is precisely why we don't find life on every planet which has the right chemistry
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:46 AM #444
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^ and that is precisely why we don't find life on every planet which has the right chemistry
Really? And how many planets have we visited with the right chemistry?

Wow. What an assumption. If evolution happened here, how do you know that it didn't happen all over the universe? Maybe a cosmic tsunami swept through the universe full of the building blocks for life depositing them on thousands of planets in it's path.

But I'm wondering, where did all the matter and energy in the universe come from to begin with? Has it always been here? Did it pop out of nothingness? Just as many unanswered questions as the idea of a designer?
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:49 PM #445
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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"Well, I like maths, but I don't have any accurate figures to base my model on, and so therefore can't demonstrate it. You say that 1x10^50 is an impossibility, but not when there are trillions of atoms all interacting in a primordial sea...
...Over billions of years might I add.

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Maybe a cosmic tsunami swept through the universe full of the building blocks for life depositing them on thousands of planets in it's path.
It did, more or less. It's called a supernova.
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:33 PM #446
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Really? And how many planets have we visited with the right chemistry?
the point is, even though the probability of an individual event is small, given enough events happening simultaneously, it will happen.
That's how quantum computers can crack all the codes/encryptions previously thought to be impossible.

imagine this:
what's the probability of you picking the right numbers in a lottery draw?
now does that mean no one wins the lottery?
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:43 PM #447
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Perfect example^
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:57 PM #448
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Plus, you never hear stories about those millions who lose the lottery, because the winners are so much more noisy about it, and attract more attention than those who lose

(This all follows on from the point that we're not around, living on and observing the planets not so "fortunate" so as to have harboured life, so our viewpoint is just slightly biased)
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