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Old 01-15-2015, 05:51 AM #4401
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I personally don't count it as a person until 8 weeks.

If I crush a sunflower seed, did I kill a whole sunflower?


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Old 01-15-2015, 05:51 AM #4402
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So now your saying living cells are dead? If they're alive and joined together, there is no difference between that and a baby.

That's like an ER doctor saying. "His heart has stopped! He stopped breathing! Oh too bad, I guess he's not alive!" When in reality he can be resuscitated.
Just an example.
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Old 01-15-2015, 05:52 AM #4403
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
So now your saying living cells are dead? If they're alive and joined together, there is no difference between that and a baby.

That's like an ER doctor saying. "His heart has stopped! He stopped breathing! Oh too bad, I guess he's not alive!" When in reality he can be resuscitated.
Just an example.
OK, so your opinion is that one cell, which can grow to an adult is a person, correct?

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Old 01-15-2015, 05:55 AM #4404
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Theres a huge difference between a few cells and a baby. A few cells cannot think, perceive time, pain, or anything else. A few cells are nothing more than a series of complex chemical reactions taking place.

You aren't killing a baby, your killing the idea of a baby.

You analogy is completely off too. A person who is formed can in some circumstances be revived. If the bunch of cells fails to grow, you can't revive them.

(This is a hard topic to discuss. Its a lot of battling between logic and morality, and everyone has their own different levels of each)
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Old 01-15-2015, 05:59 AM #4405
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Theres a huge difference between a few cells and a baby. A few cells cannot think, perceive time, pain, or anything else. A few cells are nothing more than a series of complex chemical reactions taking place.

You aren't killing a baby, your killing the idea of a baby.

You analogy is completely off too. A person who is formed can in some circumstances be revived. If the bunch of cells fails to grow, you can't revive them.

(This is a hard topic to discuss. Its a lot of battling between logic and morality, and everyone has their own different levels of each)
I don't think its logic vs morality per se...as much as understanding biology and morality.

No one wants to hurt a baby...we are merely trying to decide at what point that is happening.
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Old 01-15-2015, 06:00 AM #4406
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The problem lies in the fact that you believe it is just a bunch of cells. I believe it's a person (Human Being) with a soul from the moment conceived. You don't.

Good night.

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Old 01-15-2015, 06:09 AM #4407
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

3 AM here. Nothing like a good theological debate early in the morning.
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Old 01-15-2015, 08:22 AM #4408
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Christians who are anti abortion do not realize the bible does not prohibit it, in fact there are passages detailing how to perform abortions if a man thought his wife may have been unfaithful.

plus, the bible always says people arent alive until they take their first breath, the breath of life, so even god does not consider a collection of cells to be a person. no one is alive to god until they have taken a breath

this is not my position, which is not relevant
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Old 01-15-2015, 09:19 AM #4409
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The problem lies in the fact that you believe it is just a bunch of cells. I believe it's a person (Human Being) with a soul from the moment conceived. You don't.

Good night.

Where I live it's 2:00 A.M.
Just a curious question again, at what point do you define the soul? The very moment sperm touches egg? Or when the membrane of the egg has been penetrated? Or when the egg passes through the oviduct?
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:10 PM #4410
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
I personally don't count it as a person until 8 weeks.
So this isn't a person?


Link: File:Lifesize8weekfetus.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:19 PM #4411
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The problem lies in the fact that you believe it is just a bunch of cells. I believe it's a person (Human Being) with a soul from the moment conceived. You don't.

Good night.

Where I live it's 2:00 A.M.
Well, what I asked was what you believe.

You say "bunch of cells", I asked if you thought ONE cell was enough.

Is it? One cell, before division into say, two cells, that could grow into a person...is that enough to call "A person", and, the killing of that one cell would be murder?

Am I correctly summarizing how you feel?
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Old 01-15-2015, 12:28 PM #4412
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Actually, no, its not. Its a picture of a hand holding a plastic model of a stylized fetus, used to make a point for people who are pro-life.



You can buy them....they are distributed for free, depicting a very small baby, described as "an 8 week old fetus", etc.




REAL (More Accurate) models, used by gynecologists for training, with an 8 week old fetus (To the right)



Notice the fake "8 week old fetus" is closer in features to a 22 week old fetus, and the real features of an 8 week old fetus are far less "cute". A real 8 week old fetus doesn't have visible legs or a face yet for example, but parts are being assembled to make them.




8 week old fetus, showing that it has a brain, nerves from the brain are starting to grow, it has eyes with lids, paddle-like hands, etc...you can tell where its going, developmentally. (The upper model pic made it look a LOT bigger than it really is, but was too small to see any details)


I am NOT saying that ANY of them are "a person" or not, just that the pro-lifers use the same lies and deceptions as the fundamentalist Christians do about evolution, etc.

It seems to be their modus operandi...if the facts don't support your position, make up stuff, and say THAT supports your position.










To be clear, I completely understand the idea of a person being a person before they are born. I think that the real dilemma is trying to decide if even one cell is a person, or, if it needs to at least divide into differentiated tissues, or two cells, etc.

I don't think it should be based on if it looks like a baby per se...so the fake pics to make it look like a baby are an emotional appeal to try to get people to THINK OF an 8 week old fetus as "A Baby"....even though giving birth to a REAL 8 week old fetus would produce something more like a tadpole than a frog, etc.

Supernatural concepts, such as a "soul" are not important to me. The rights of a person to not be murdered ARE important though. I just think getting a better idea of when a clump of cells becomes "a person".

The fundamentalists tend to feel its wrong to keep the sperm from the egg, so, essentially, not reproducing is wrong. Some who are a bit more relaxed, say its OK to not reproduce EVERY TIME, as long as you MOSTLY reproduce. Some relax a bit more and say its OK to not reproduce all you want to, but if you accidentally DO reproduce, you have to raise it.

The really small print is when that took place...when did daddy's DNA and Mommy's DNA combine to form little Johnny's DNA? Is DNA the same as a person?





Some pro-life advocates feel that abortions are ok, and they perform them themselves.

For example, they might wait for the conception, birth, elementary school, middle school, high school, and finally medical school, and then after the fetus is practicing medicine, say at an abortion clinic, THEN the pro-lifers do the abortion...of the doctor.



So, the key, for me, is to understand if that ONE CELL is considered a person, and, if so, is killing that one cell murder?

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Old 01-15-2015, 02:55 PM #4413
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

There was a great exhibit in new york, showing cross sections of human bodies, animals, and the human fetus as different stages of development.

It looks absolutely nothing like that keychain. Might as well go ahead and base your view of women on Barbie, and men on Ken.

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Old 01-15-2015, 02:59 PM #4414
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
I personally don't count it as a person until 8 weeks.

If I crush a sunflower seed, did I kill a whole sunflower?
I like how this discussion changes topic so fast, and Blarg King, I agree about a nice debate early in the morning. I like that a lot. Except for right now I'm sick or I would have stayed up even later. I had to sleep in till 20 minutes ago to make up for it.

I think that could be thought of, as just killing the egg cell. The sunflower seed hasn't been activated until it goes into the soil.

@Teej, even though the replica is slightly "off" from the original, does that make it invalid?

And yes the Bible does say abortion is wrong. Abortion=murder. Murder=wrong.


I think the baby has a soul before the sperm cell and egg meet each other.

You know, I found the real reason I believe what I do. It's all because I believe the Bible.

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Old 01-15-2015, 03:29 PM #4415
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

*Cough* So you believe in god because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible, because you believe in god, because you believe in the bible...

I don't believe in circular logic... or that every spermatozoa is half a soul.

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Old 01-15-2015, 03:44 PM #4416
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

But understand, all religions are based on circular reasoning to a point.

Why do you believe God wrote the bible. Because he says so in the Bible. Why do you believe that? Because God wrote it. Circular Reasoning.

But all FAITHS, are based on this.

For example, if we were having a conversation about a wooden chair, and the debate went as follows.

Me-"Chairs are obviously not made of wood."
You-"Why would you think that."
Me-"Why would you think they are"?
You-"Because that's what I hear from the lumber store, and it says it on the price tag."
Me-"But what if that lumber yard worker is lying, and the tag on the chair is wrong"?
You-But even if I can't go by those, I can see it and know that it's the same material as trees, and I can feel it."
Me-"How do you know your sight is accurate, and your feeling is accurate, and that your not dreaming, and who said your eyes and hands work correctly"?
You-"uuuhhhhhhhhhhhh."

In this situation, I'm in your shoes in the argument. All arguments can't be backed up endlessly, all use circular reasoning.

Did you even read the Bible verses I put forth? The soul is already there, your body was created at a different time then your soul. Your bod is a place for your soul to rest (body-soul unity) and killing it gives the soul no chance to live on earth. You haven't killed the soul though, imo it goes to heaven and recieves a new body, just like the Bible says (Yes it does say so!).

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