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Old 06-28-2009, 04:24 PM #417
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
According to wikipedia, "In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that 'My position concerning God is that of an agnostic.'"

Even if he wasn't, it's hardly a sound argument to claim "so-and-so believed it, so it must be true."
I'm new to LPF and find a religion thread here quite interesting. Lot's of sarcasm. I must post a quote from an article about Einstein by Timothy Ferris. Ferris quotes Einstein as saying, “What I see in nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of ‘humility.’ This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. .*.*. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. .*.*. I want to know how God created this world. I want to know his thoughts, the rest are details.” I think he did believe in a higher power.

Astrophysicist Fred Hoyle was also quoted as saying ‘the origin of the universe*requires an intelligence,’ ‘an intelligence on a higher plane,’ ‘an intelligence that preceded us and that was led to a deliberate act of creation of structures suitable for life.’

Just thought I would share the views of a couple of highly respected minds.


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Old 06-28-2009, 04:35 PM #418
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm tired of listening to people saying "Oh, but Einstein believed in a god".

Alright, guys, OK, he was a great mathematician and discovered lots of cool stuff, formuled the theory of relativity, etc. But that doesn't mean that everything he said must be true or correct.
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Old 06-28-2009, 05:14 PM #419
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nobody is trying to sway anyone’s beliefs based on what Einstein believed. Your welcome to yours and the limitations and liberations they provide. They are simply quoting some though provoking things he wrote.

I find those quotes and others like them far more worthy of this thread than anything sarcastic and crude in conduct I have seen.

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Old 06-28-2009, 05:20 PM #420
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I take it you have a disdain for any idea of God.

As an obvious evolutionist, I wonder what your take on the idea of spontaneous generation is?

As I'm sure you know, the principal steps en route to the origin of life, as envisioned by evolutionary theory, are (1)*the existence of the right primitive atmosphere and (2)*a concentration in the oceans of an organic soup of “simple” molecules necessary for life. (3)*From these come proteins and nucleotides (complex chemical compounds) that (4)*combine and acquire a membrane, and thereafter (5)*they develop a genetic code and start making copies of themselves.

In 1953 Stanley Miller did his experiment trying to produce amino acids by passing a spark through an atmosphere of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor. There are 20 amino acids needed out of over 100 for life to exist. He produced 4. No one has ever been able to produce all 20 in lab experiments and the debate continues over whether oxygen had to be in the atmosphere or not. But that's the first conundrum.Even though he failed to 'create' all 20 amino acids, Miller was playing the 'Intelligent Designer'!

But really, what is the probability of the spontaneous generation of life? What are the odds of the right 20 amino acids getting together in the right order to create just one protein molecule? The odds are 1 in 10^113. Mathematicians dismiss any event from happening if the odds are greater than 1 in 10^50. Another evolutionist's conundrum! 10^113 is a larger number than ALL the estimated total number in atoms in the universe!

So that's just for one simple protein molecule to form on it's own. Some proteins are structural materials and others are enzymes dealing with chemical reactions in cells. Each cell needs 2,000 enzymes. What are the odds of the cells obtaining these needed enzymes by chance? How about 1 in 10^40000. Yet another evolutionary conundrum!

What about DNA? Nucleotides are the structural units of DNA. 5 histones are involved in DNA. What are the odds of just one histone forming by chance? 1 in 20^100. Yet another conundrum.

If you do the math, who really is the one with blind faith?

P.S. For the record, I am not a Creationist. I believe in God, that he created everything, but I do not believe it was in six literal days. The bible doesn't teach that. Genesis 1:1 says 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth', not on the first creative day. The universe has been here for billions of years.

The term days doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hr. period but a period of time. As an example, 'back in my day'. Whew, let's not talk about that . . .
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Old 06-28-2009, 07:06 PM #421
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by eljefe View Post
I take it you have a disdain for any idea of God.

As an obvious evolutionist, I wonder what your take on the idea of spontaneous generation is?

As I'm sure you know, the principal steps en route to the origin of life, as envisioned by evolutionary theory, are (1)*the existence of the right primitive atmosphere and (2)*a concentration in the oceans of an organic soup of “simple” molecules necessary for life. (3)*From these come proteins and nucleotides (complex chemical compounds) that (4)*combine and acquire a membrane, and thereafter (5)*they develop a genetic code and start making copies of themselves.

In 1953 Stanley Miller did his experiment trying to produce amino acids by passing a spark through an atmosphere of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor. There are 20 amino acids needed out of over 100 for life to exist. He produced 4. No one has ever been able to produce all 20 in lab experiments and the debate continues over whether oxygen had to be in the atmosphere or not. But that's the first conundrum.Even though he failed to 'create' all 20 amino acids, Miller was playing the 'Intelligent Designer'!

But really, what is the probability of the spontaneous generation of life? What are the odds of the right 20 amino acids getting together in the right order to create just one protein molecule? The odds are 1 in 10^113. Mathematicians dismiss any event from happening if the odds are greater than 1 in 10^50. Another evolutionist's conundrum! 10^113 is a larger number than ALL the estimated total number in atoms in the universe!

So that's just for one simple protein molecule to form on it's own. Some proteins are structural materials and others are enzymes dealing with chemical reactions in cells. Each cell needs 2,000 enzymes. What are the odds of the cells obtaining these needed enzymes by chance? How about 1 in 10^40000. Yet another evolutionary conundrum!

What about DNA? Nucleotides are the structural units of DNA. 5 histones are involved in DNA. What are the odds of just one histone forming by chance? 1 in 20^100. Yet another conundrum.

If you do the math, who really is the one with blind faith?

P.S. For the record, I am not a Creationist. I believe in God, that he created everything, but I do not believe it was in six literal days. The bible doesn't teach that. Genesis 1:1 says 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth', not on the first creative day. The universe has been here for billions of years.

The term days doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hr. period but a period of time. As an example, 'back in my day'. Whew, let's not talk about that . . .

Oh yes the bible did say it happened in 6 days, don't come with the "hey it's not really 6 days man", don't twist the truth.



Yes I have a disdain for it.



Big Bang didn't happen as you just described it...


(Yes sorry I'm in a hurry )
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:03 PM #422
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hi:
Just because in the current form, there are thousands of enzymes each having hundreds of atoms, does not mean that the original life forms were like this.
There was an experiment conducted by some robotics experts, whereby they created a simple ecosystem of two classes of robots, Predators and Prey. Prey had parameters such as their sensory distances, startle thresholds and other "instinctive" behavioural parameters. Predators had similar parameters for their behaviour. They were then put in an arena with a pool of light (the "food" for the Prey). Eseentially the "Predators" were able to "eat" the prey, whilst the "prey" aimed to eat as much as possible without being "eaten". At the end of a "day" these surviving parameters were "bred" and randomised. In this (artificial) simulation of an ecosystem, we could see processes and behaviours, evolving and developing over time. Whilst this isn't an illustration of the actual beginnings of life, at least this concept can clearly be applied to even simpler forms of life, and non-organic processes as well. Some consider this too far a stretch from demonstrating life from non-living materials; I however think it's a logical conclusion to reach from this experiment.
(BBC News | SCI/TECH | Robot wars for real)

More relevant, however, is the South Park episode where Eric freezes himself and wakes up in the year 2540. The sad thing is that it has a remarkably accurate view of human psychology - in that time, the sea-otters have a faith in their own atheism, which has literally become like a religion to them. Some people need to have a belief in a higher power, for whatever reasons. Others are happy to accept the fact that there is no God, and no reason for religion to be part of their life. It is when religion impinges on these people's everyday lives, or people who have not made the choice to believe or not, that I personally, as well as many people I know, begin to think religion is not behaving in the way it should. An example of this is the teaching of creationism in schools, both impairing the education of those who have chosen not to believe, as well as those who haven't yet made that choice for themselves.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:21 PM #423
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliebruce View Post
Hi:
Just because in the current form, there are thousands of enzymes each having hundreds of atoms, does not mean that the original life forms were like this.
There was an experiment conducted by some robotics experts, whereby they created a simple ecosystem of two classes of robots, Predators and Prey. Prey had parameters such as their sensory distances, startle thresholds and other "instinctive" behavioural parameters. Predators had similar parameters for their behaviour. They were then put in an arena with a pool of light (the "food" for the Prey). Eseentially the "Predators" were able to "eat" the prey, whilst the "prey" aimed to eat as much as possible without being "eaten". At the end of a "day" these surviving parameters were "bred" and randomised. In this (artificial) simulation of an ecosystem, we could see processes and behaviours, evolving and developing over time. Whilst this isn't an illustration of the actual beginnings of life, at least this concept can clearly be applied to even simpler forms of life, and non-organic processes as well. Some consider this too far a stretch from demonstrating life from non-living materials; I however think it's a logical conclusion to reach from this experiment.
(BBC News | SCI/TECH | Robot wars for real)

More relevant, however, is the South Park episode where Eric freezes himself and wakes up in the year 2540. The sad thing is that it has a remarkably accurate view of human psychology - in that time, the sea-otters have a faith in their own atheism, which has literally become like a religion to them. Some people need to have a belief in a higher power, for whatever reasons. Others are happy to accept the fact that there is no God, and no reason for religion to be part of their life. It is when religion impinges on these people's everyday lives, or people who have not made the choice to believe or not, that I personally, as well as many people I know, begin to think religion is not behaving in the way it should. An example of this is the teaching of creationism in schools, both impairing the education of those who have chosen not to believe, as well as those who haven't yet made that choice for themselves.
My point exactly. It was conducted by 'robotics experts'. People with intelligence, with a goal and purpose. Those little robots didn't happen by accident, but from what you are saying I guess they will be evolving humans in no time.

You say, "Just because in the current form, there are thousands of enzymes each having hundreds of atoms, does not mean that the original life forms were like this."

What is your proof? Blind speculation? Even if different enzymes or amino acids were involved how would that change the mathamatical odds? 1 in 10^109 instead of 1 in 10^113? The only advice I can give is stay far away from Vegas!
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:00 AM #424
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you gamble enough in Vegas, eventually you will get a payout. It might not be a big one, and it might take an awful long time, but if that payout can replicate itself and adapt to its surroundings, it's not going to be long before you're surrounded by them (on a cosmological scale of course). In my opinion, if the universe throws you millions of potential universes, billions of reactions, eventually one of those will hit the metaphorical "jackpot" and create life. And let's face it, if there aren't the right conditions on a planet to support life, then there's not going to be anyone around to notice that fact.

My point regarding the enzymes comment was that life souldn't have started off as a cell with enzymes or long amino acids, but probably something we wouldn't recognise as alive at all. Over millions of years, the conditions favoured the "things" that happened to be more complex, possibly because "they" could reproduce effectively. At this point there would not be senses or anything, just a bundle of chemicals floating like a jellyfish. Eventually, they would end up performing all of the life functions we recognise today, simply by chance, over billions of years. Life as we know it today has very simple fundamental "blocks", and very simple principles underlying it all. I can't explain the concepts in accurate biological terms but I hope that mess of text gets my point across. I have no evidence to support my points, only my own knowlegde of the world and basic biology.
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:03 AM #425
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliebruce View Post
if you gamble enough in vegas, eventually you will get a payout. It might not be a big one, and it might take an awful long time, but if that payout can replicate itself and adapt to its surroundings, it's not going to be long before you're surrounded by them (on a cosmological scale of course). In my opinion, if the universe throws you millions of potential universes, billions of reactions, eventually one of those will hit the metaphorical "jackpot" and create life. And let's face it, if there aren't the right conditions on a planet to support life, then there's not going to be anyone around to notice that fact.

My point regarding the enzymes comment was that life souldn't have started off as a cell with enzymes or long amino acids, but probably something we wouldn't recognise as alive at all. Over millions of years, the conditions favoured the "things" that happened to be more complex, possibly because "they" could reproduce effectively. At this point there would not be senses or anything, just a bundle of chemicals floating like a jellyfish. Eventually, they would end up performing all of the life functions we recognise today, simply by chance, over billions of years. Life as we know it today has very simple fundamental "blocks", and very simple principles underlying it all. I can't explain the concepts in accurate biological terms but i hope that mess of text gets my point across. I have no evidence to support my points, only my own knowlegde of the world and basic biology.

^ this!!
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:37 AM #426
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

what's the probability of you being alive right now?
1/hudrends of millions of sperms of your dad happened to impregnate your mom at the right time. and what's the chance of your dad meeting your mom? and your grandparents?

well the odds for YOU to be existing right now does seem pretty low, yet there are 7 billion of us.

sure the conditions necessary for life is rare, but hey, how many planets are there?
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:26 AM #427
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:28 PM #428
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

no trolling just for fun



this to


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Old 06-29-2009, 04:38 PM #429
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Even infinite 3 dimensional universes traveling along there own 4th dimension of time shows design and purpose over chaos. It may appear random and chaotic to someone observing reality from within it. Like an antenna picking up the electromagnetic energy from the matter around it and sending it to a speaker will produce white noise (apparent chaos) But if you take an MRI machine that is designed to pick up that same electromagnetic energy in a way that is organized to reproduce an image from that energy we can see that it is not random at all but a pattern that cannot be interpreted by the simple antenna.

To base existence on chaos is imposable from a multi dimensional prospective. The existence of matter, life, thought… would not be possible if the 3rd and/or 4th dimension behaved in a random chaotic way. Dimensions have rules, Structure and purpose. We are limited in our ability to perceive the whole design from this existence but either the ultimate origin of everything is random chaos or it is not. Because I can think and vote I vote no way chaos was the origin of anything. Sorry ancient Greeks still a good word though.

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Old 06-29-2009, 08:26 PM #430
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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It is when religion impinges on these people's everyday lives, or people who have not made the choice to believe or not, that I personally, as well as many people I know, begin to think religion is not behaving in the way it should. An example of this is the teaching of creationism in schools, both impairing the education of those who have chosen not to believe, as well as those who haven't yet made that choice for themselves.
Funny how religious people were up in arms when evolutions was starting to be taught in schools. Now more than a decade later here's an evolutionist banging the same drum.

I personally never minded evolution being taught as long as it was taught in the context of Theory because that is what is. Not proven, not fact.

-Ryan
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:18 PM #431
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

please look up what theory means in scientific sense. theory is not theory in everyday language.

the theory of evolution is one of the most supported theory in science (equal to or not better supported than gravity).

let's not dismiss an idea just because of our lack of a better word to label it.


btw, nothing in science is proven. they are only supported.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:24 AM #432
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by primary View Post
please look up what theory means in scientific sense. theory is not theory in everyday language.

the theory of evolution is one of the most supported theory in science (equal to or not better supported than gravity).

let's not dismiss an idea just because of our lack of a better word to label it.


btw, nothing in science is proven. they are only supported.
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