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Old 01-02-2015, 12:58 AM #4113
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Very True Cy.

Also, either baby could have pointed out that he can feel mom, and, hear her heart beat, etc...so there would have been evidence if able to sense it.

The flip side of the "two sides of the same coin" example, is when a comparison is made to an unfavorable reference.

For example, when someone says so and so has a mustache that was like Hitler's...or believed something that Hitler also believed (Say, believed in God, or that airplanes can fly, two of Hitler's beliefs), the implication is made that therefore the person is like Hitler if they believe in god or that airplanes can fly.

Obviously, many people believe that airplanes can fly, and, doing so doesn't mean that they therefore necessarily share other characteristics with each other.

Believing in god DOES NOT mean that you are "Like Hitler", and, NOT believing in god DOES NOT mean you are "Unlike Hitler". (Except in the narrow criteria relative to that belief)


IE: Just because you, and Hitler, both believed in god, doesn't mean that you are like Hitler.


And so forth.

Of course at that age, they don't know what a heartbeat is.


"God has proved himself to us in numerous ways, all around us. The atheist needs to put his glasses on. What more can God possibly do if man has shut his eyes to him?"
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.p...Open_your_eyes

Consider the words of our friend Einstein.
-"A legitimate conflict between science & religion cannot exist. Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind".



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Old 01-02-2015, 02:30 AM #4114
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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A legitimate conflict between science & religion cannot exist.
That's total bullshit, and you know it.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
God has proved himself to us in numerous ways, all around us.
Such as?

Faith is belief without proof. If proof is available, whence comes faith?
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Old 01-02-2015, 02:50 AM #4115
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post

Such as?

Faith is belief without proof. If proof is available, whence comes faith?

50 reasons to believe in God - Iron Chariots Wiki

Some of these are bs but some are solid reasons. Admit that?

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That's total bullshit, and you know it.
Yeah, you have a point.

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Old 01-02-2015, 03:50 AM #4116
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

But, what difference does it really make to believe in God? I know some religions teach it will make the difference whether you go to hell or not, but I doubt that very much, even if there were one as taught in Christianity etc.

Belief, what a thing.... people kill over beliefs, do things they would never otherwise do over beliefs in God both good and bad, all in the name of their God they cannot see, sense or have never seen for themselves.

Can you think there is a God, or not, without choosing sides simply because you won't believe what you don't know for yourself? Isn't that the right thing to do?

Too many people want you to choose sides whether God exists or not, I say it makes no difference, the sun shines upon your head either way you believe, or if you choose not to believe one way or another. Still, I believe spirituality is real, spirit is real and life continues beyond the death of the body. I have my own concept of God, but it doesn't match religious description well and I don't think the mismatch is a problem, although there are plenty of people who will claim I will burn in hell for not believing what they believe, as they have been taught to believe. Wrong, lots of false religious doctrine out there.

I imagine some wonder how I dare challenge belief systems with hundreds, if not thousand of years of of history. Good question, I wonder why more haven't challenged such non-sense, is it because of the untold numbers of people who have been tortured and killed over the centuries if they don't agree with religious doctrines or the powers the be who have made it mandatory to believe? Maybe that has played some small part in it. Fortunately, in our modern times I can get away with these words, words I would have been killed many times over for saying in the past.

Is there a God? I think maybe, does God match religious doctrine? I doubt it. Do I want there to be a God, yes, if such is as wonderful as I think it can be, do I want there to be a God as religions teach? Hell no, there is no single religious doctrine I can believe in as being the way and the path to what they call God, I think we all have that in us individually already without such organizations and the reality is, all religions are ultimately a dead end, you can only find the rest of the way to God through yourself, individually. Sure share what you find, but don't hold beliefs above life, above the possibilities.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:26 AM #4117
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
50 reasons to believe in God - Iron Chariots Wiki

Some of these are bs but some are solid reasons. Admit that?
You do realize you cited a source that is refuting a list of reasons to believe in god?
Look like the Author(s) got all of them covered.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:33 AM #4118
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Some of these are bs but some are solid reasons. Admit that?
I don't have the time to refute all that garbage, although it is nice to see someone has already done an okay job. Pick 3 that resonate with you, and we'll work with those.

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But, what difference does it really make to believe in God?
Are you being facetious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
spirit is real and life continues beyond the death of the body.
That's fantastic! Write your evidence down, get it peer reviewed, and collect your Nobel prize
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:55 AM #4119
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You do realize you cited a source that is refuting a list of reasons to believe in god?
Look like the Author(s) got all of them covered.
lol I noticed that too. it confirms my suspicions that USAbro does not examine evidence very carefuly, including that which he tries to use to support his own position

this actually happens with creationists and other anti science attacks very often. evidence is presented which actually supports the opposition's position. it's great entertainment
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:38 AM #4120
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I laughed at this a lot! I'm a Catholic, and I do agree with the beliefs of the Catholic church (to an extent), but I find it to be so weird when people do this kind of thing. I mean, come on, if you really need a way to be saved, and you see a helicopter... Seriously, are they expecting a beam of light to come down from the sky?

Another thing is that I'm happy that the new pope who people actually listen to said that evolution doesn't conflict with Catholic beliefs, because I totally know that the Adam and Eve story is just supposed to be a metaphor. People who claim to be super religious are almost never actually super religious, just dumb enough to do stuff like in the comic above. Why can't they just think that the helicopter is from the being in whom they believe?

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Old 01-02-2015, 07:31 AM #4121
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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...Another thing is that I'm happy that the new pope who people actually listen to said that evolution doesn't conflict with Catholic beliefs, because I totally know that the Adam and Eve story is just supposed to be a metaphor.
I presume you think other stories in the bible must also be metaphor then. how is a layman reading the bible to tell the difference between the metaphors and literal accounts? can anyone blow my mind with a coherent answer?
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:36 AM #4122
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

People will believe what they want to believe, regardless, no proof is great enough for someone who refuses it or clings to their religion as if it were some kind of life raft keeping them safe from sharks.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:47 AM #4123
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I presume you think other stories in the bible must also be metaphor then. how is a layman reading the bible to tell the difference between the metaphors and literal accounts?
Ah, you pose an excellent point. Forgive me, I was being very "Loosey-goosey" with my wording (it's very late here). What I should have said was "It is my belief that the story of Adam and eve was a metaphor."

I have no way to tell which stories are and aren't true, nor am I even slightly qualified to do so. However, I do know that often, people would make up stories to explain the unknown. Today, everything's a story until proven otherwise by ridiculous amounts of scientific and historical research. In addition, there are a few stories in which many different cultures and religions state the same occurrence with minor variations (e.g. the great flood listed in Egypt, the bible, etc.). However, you may find that it is a story that was spread throughout several continents by word of mouth, and it ended up like a giant game of telephone.

So yes, I am entirely unqualified to make any of these statements, and I have done little to no research. These are just my two cents on what I believe.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:57 AM #4124
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Ah, you pose an excellent point. Forgive me, I was being very "Loosey-goosey" with my wording (it's very late here). What I should have said was "It is my belief that the story of Adam and eve was a metaphor."

I have no way to tell which stories are and aren't true, nor am I even slightly qualified to do so. However, I do know that often, people would make up stories to explain the unknown. Today, everything's a story until proven otherwise by ridiculous amounts of scientific and historical research. In addition, there are a few stories in which many different cultures and religions state the same occurrence with minor variations (e.g. the great flood listed in Egypt, the bible, etc.). However, you may find that it is a story that was spread throughout several continents by word of mouth, and it ended up like a giant game of telephone.

So yes, I am entirely unqualified to make any of these statements, and I have done little to no research. These are just my two cents on what I believe.
The stories of floods would be more corroborative if they took place at at least similar times, alas, they don't. Same with bronze age superstitions and misconceptions being presented as facts, etc...its ALL metaphors and stories essentially.

Most open minded people know they are stories, inside, as otherwise they'd need to assume things like Noah knowing how to gather Sequoias and Redwoods from California, sulfur bacteria, and creatures that only exist many miles down at thermal vents on the ocean floor, say where the water is boiling and under high pressure...when he needed instructions to build a wooden boat....but a Bathyscaphe and enough biology and geology and botany and microbiology, etc, to find and collect, and,maintain, ALL the creatures collected, ON that wooden boat...was not included, not even that the world was round, so he might have a shot at getting to all the places on the planet he needed to get to, and so forth.

If written by the Church in the 2-5th centuries, using materials from the Bronze Age, such as from the Jews, etc, sure, they think, hmm, how many animals ARE there? OK, I guess a hundred or so, cool, make the boat "THIS BIG".



If god existed, and in the context he's claimed to, you'd think his "breathed words" would have been less like the words of ordinary men working in committees.

There would be no need for Santa Claus, before he was even a bishop, to punch someone at a committee meeting over what should, and should not, be in the bible. (According to the records from the council of Nicaea at least...)


You'd think the war-like and violent god of the 1st testament, back when the people worshiped whoever they thought would be most likely to lead them to victory, would not suddenly change to a god who said that obedience to the government was your holy duty, just because the government in power at the time suddenly adopted the Church.

And so forth.

Religion is to control the masses. Always has been, and, always will be, until the masses are educated enough, and open minded enough, to realize they're being hoodwinked.

The Church set out too make sure "Knowledge is why you suffer" and "Knowledge is evil", etc....even the "Tree of Knowledge" is one of the first things you should NOT want, and so forth.

So when people followed religions that lead them to victory, the gods were war gods who lead their people to victory.

When the governments realized that a revolt was controllable by hijacking religions, they hijacked religions, or, made themselves the religions, etc.

There were no old-time kings claiming the throne due to their administrative prowess, their claims were divine, ALL of them. Kings fighting each other were ALL on their thrones because GOD put them there.

And so forth.


If able to see through the BS, one could not help but notice the way its always worked.

So, the above is not showing GOD doesn't exist, its showing that organized RELIGION is BS.

The bible is BS. It can be inspiring BS, but its NOT a history book, its a story book. Chicken Soup for the Soul, maybe...but, History of Mankind, not so much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
50 reasons to believe in God - Iron Chariots Wiki

Some of these are bs but some are solid reasons. Admit that?



Yeah, you have a point.
SOME of these are BS?

Admit that?

You didn't even READ this, did you?

Or, if you did, your reading comprehension failed you miserably.


ALL 50 of the "Reasons" given are DISPROVING your point, ALL of them, that's the PURPOSE OF THE LIST.


So, you saw something TITLED such that you ASSUMED it supported your point, but, failed to notice it REFUTED your point, and was simply titled in a fashion that misled you.


IF, (IF) you were actually READ the copy/paste/linked crap that you spew...maybe, just maybe, you'd come to understand your own opinion better?



Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Of course at that age, they don't know what a heartbeat is.

LOL

Of course, the context of the joke is that they are talking in the womb....so your point is out of context.

Next you might point out that you doubt a chicken would HAVE a valid reason for crossing the road?


On the other hand, fetuses in the womb do seem to know about heart beats. Studies have shown that its a very formative effect, and, its one of the reasons many of a child's first words are two syllable rhythms that mimic a heart beat cadence...ma ma, da da, etc.

So, they may not know what the source is, but, they do have evidence of it in the form of sound and transmitted vibrations....and, are shown to be very aware of it.


Last edited by ARG; 01-02-2015 at 05:32 PM. Reason: merged triple post
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:25 PM #4125
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
SOME of these are BS?

Admit that?

You didn't even READ this, did you?

Or, if you did, your reading comprehension failed you miserably.


ALL 50 of the "Reasons" given are DISPROVING your point, ALL of them, that's the PURPOSE OF THE LIST.


So, you saw something TITLED such that you ASSUMED it supported your point, but, failed to notice it REFUTED your point, and was simply titled in a fashion that misled you.


IF, (IF) you were actually READ the copy/paste/linked crap that you spew...maybe, just maybe, you'd come to understand your own opinion better?

Actually, I did read through the entire document about six months ago, and found most of it to be accurate, at least, it seemed so.

I still have a bunch to learn, and I think I'll look into my evidence a bit more before posting.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:49 PM #4126
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Actually, I did read through the entire document about six months ago, and found most of it to be accurate, at least, it seemed so.

I still have a bunch to learn, and I think I'll look into my evidence a bit more before posting.
OK, lets see if I have this right:

1) You found a site that shows 50 false claims and why they are false.

IE: Essentially along the lines of; Claim: God is Almighty/Proved False, because he admitted losing to Iron Chariots....and an almighty god would not lose to men just because they had iron.

THEN:

2) You read it, and did not notice that it was a site about 50 false claims, and, why they are false.

OR

3) You posted the 50 false claims and why they are false, because you now realize that all of your prior posts with false claims, were in fact false, and, you now no longer believe in god, or at least the accuracy of the bible.


So, is it #2, or #3?


Last edited by Teej; 01-02-2015 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:50 PM #4127
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Only argue the big picture, you can get lost in the small points which mean nothing.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

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Old 01-02-2015, 08:50 PM #4128
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The bible is BS. It can be inspiring BS, but its NOT a history book, its a story book. Chicken Soup for the Soul, maybe...but, History of Mankind, not so much.
Oh, I was not claiming for any of the bible to be true. I do believe some parts of it are, but that's only because they seem realistic and like they could actually happen very easily. I mean, take the birth of Jesus for instance. No room for him to be born, he's born in a barn. The story of his death, okay. The story of his resurrection, well, I believe in that one because it's the church's teaching that it was literal.

But it is made very clear that most of the bible is probably just stories. For instance, read this passage from the book of Revelations:

"Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child."

What I'm really saying is yes, I believe in Jesus, but most of the bible is not meant to be taken literally.
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