Old 12-22-2014, 02:41 PM #4065
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Once again... Simpson's did it

LOL

Circular arguments disproved with spherical coordinates...and flat taxes.

Love it.



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Old 12-22-2014, 03:07 PM #4066
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

My last post made a statement we might be better off without religion or the concept of a personal God, at the same time I think it exists, just not the way religions teach, far more wonderful and that we are all a part of it as individual cells of the whole body, in a way of thinking.
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Old 12-22-2014, 03:37 PM #4067
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Default Re: LPF's Religion


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Old 12-22-2014, 03:57 PM #4068
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 12-22-2014, 04:05 PM #4069
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post

LOL


The odd thing is that that's not how atheists, that I know at least, actually think, that's how the theists think.

The Atheists tend to feel that there is a difference between not stealing the cookies because you will be punished, and, not stealing them because that means that you have unfairly treated others.


Theists seem to think people will only be moral if they would otherwise be punished, IE: NOT BE moral, simply act morally to avoid punishment.


The Atheists seem to think that controlling your actions because you care about right and wrong, IE: Not committing a crime, even if guaranteed you would not get caught...is the way it works best. Who is MORE moral? A man who would kill you because he hates you, but, doesn't, because he's afraid of getting caught, or a man who hates you, but doesn't kill you because he knows how it would make your family grieve, etc?


The above is why theists always ASSUME that Atheists "don't want there to be a god because they want to be able to act immorally without consequences"...

...but if you don't BELIEVE in the existence of a god, you actually DON'T fret about what if there is....that's what THEISTS tend to do.




Studies of young children show a similar developmental pathway.

For example, if a child is told about two kids, one who went to clean the cookie jar, and accidentally knocked it over and broke the jar and ruined all the cookies, and the other kid, who saw the same jar, but just took one cookie,

and is asked which of the two children was the most bad and get the most punishment:

MOST young children say the kid who broke the jar and ruined all the cookies...

...up to a certain level of development. AFTER that developmental point, they start to say the kid who did more damage meant well, but the one who stole ONE cookie was more bad, etc.


Atheists are analogous to that developmental point, in that they no longer see punishment as the primary deterrent to crime for example.

Right and wrong, fairness, in of themselves are more important. As they are not acting to avoid punishment, their actions are self regulated.


SOME people can't self regulate, and, if they think they won't get caught/punished, they WOULD be unfair to others.

SOME people can't self regulate EVEN WITH the potential for being caught/punished, or, perhaps, THEIR regulation is PURPOSEFULLY harmful/unfair...BECAUSE they prey upon others.

OTHER people CAN self regulate, and, want to do the right thing BECAUSE its the right thing....even if there's NO punishments for doing the wrong thing, or, nothing, etc.


So, for the population members who know that THEY WOULD be unfair to others if they could get away with it, sure, fear of punishment MIGHT keep them from doing it.

The prison system is FULL of people who THOUGHT they "would get away with it" though...and, the vast majority of them believe in God...and, who were unfair to others ANYWAY.


Maybe the prisons would be MORE FULL than the overcrowded scenario at present....if the few who behaved better ONLY BECAUSE they feared punishment after they were dead...did behave better....so with the fear of punishment, they did behave better, so, they're missing from the prison population.


BUT, if you look at the actual numbers of those in prison, Atheists, relative to the population at large, are vastly under represented.

If being an Atheist was some sort of excuse to commit more crimes because you did not fear the afterlife consequences, you'd think that MOST atheists would be in jail by now, instead of a smaller percentage than is OUT of jail, etc.


So, in practice, there is no correlation between atheism and wanton crimes.

Atheists are past needing the threat of punishment to not be unfair to others.


If you yourself know that if you thought there was no afterlife...YOU would be a criminal, fine, believe in an after life.

If you think YOU are the only one who DOESN'T need a god to make you behave, think about why YOU are so much better than others here (If you believe that ONLY you would still behave)...and, think about that the SAME reason you probably don't do bad things (Even w/o a god) is the SAME REASON Atheists don't do bad things.



I think most people are intrinsically good. There are some bad apples, but, the bushel is, overall, good.

If religion worked as described, there would be no Christians or Jews or Muslims, etc, in prison....just Atheists.

As the actual FACTS say the OPPOSITE of that, that very few atheists are in prison, its MOSTLY people who believe in god...perhaps the answer is that people like you, and me, don't do bad things, because they ARE bad things, and, we simply don't want to be unfair to others.



People are a mixed bag...and, some of ANY official belief system are going to fall into the above behavior/moral categories. Hitler was quite Christian in his beliefs, but, they were warped and, well, he wasn't always fair to others...and Mother Theresa was quite Christian in HER beliefs, but they were "warped" in a much nicer way, in that she was REALLY fair to others.

Everyone else might be somewhere between those extremes perhaps...regardless of religion, or lack thereof.

A person can feel that way with, or without, the need for god.



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Old 12-22-2014, 05:47 PM #4070
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post

I really don't think that's a fear that many, if any atheists hold. Ultimately if there is a god, especially one that judges people, I think he would find it both amusing, and sad, how much of their lives people devote to him.

If there is to be judgement, it would be on the merits of our accomplishments, and the types of lives we lead. Do we help, do we hurt? Not based on drinking some wine, ceremonies, and chants. If anything I think god would be exceedingly disappointed with literally every single major religious organization out there.

After all, if you were god, god of sentient bacteria let's say ... would you want the bacteria to kill each other for you? Maybe for your amusement... How would you feel about a god like that?
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Old 12-22-2014, 06:15 PM #4071
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Its a bit like this conversation (Sorry, no cartoon):


Joe: I don't believe that a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn exists, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I can imagine the world without a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn, and don't see a need for there to be one to explain my life experiences.

I think people who do believe in a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn just need a way to get through life, and believing that riding that unicorn is less scary than having to walk alone.


George: Have you considered the flip side of that? Do you not believe in the magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn because YOU are afraid of there actually BEING ONE?

If you DON'T worship the magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn, when you die, you WILL be held accountable by it, and it will punish you for not believing in it....

...and you are afraid of that punishment, so you want that magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn to not exist, because, IF IT DID, you'd be in DEEP DOO DOO!

YOU are afraid to get through life WITH a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn, because you are AFRAID to be held accountable for your actions!




Joe: Um, no, because I'd have to believe in it to be afraid of it, and, the premise is that I DON'T believe....so, its hard to be afraid of a non-existent thing's non-existent punishment for believing in its non-existence.



(IE: Only someone who BELIEVES in the existence of a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn WOULD worry about what that magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn might do to THEM if THEY didn't believe in it.)







PS - I found a picture of a magical invisible rainbow farting unicorn!

Here it is:


















Isn't it spectacular!







Super Bonus!

Here's a pic of the jewish arab who was also god!




As "god made man in his own image", I'm sure this is as close a likeness as any.



Jesus wants to make sure we know he's there too, he produces amazing and miraculous displays that prove his existence!




Who could fail to realize that Jesus exists among us after seeing such evidence!



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Old 12-22-2014, 06:33 PM #4072
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That comic definitely doesn't apply to everyone, it just points out that just as some Christians beliefs are motivated by fear of the unknown of death, some atheists beliefs are motivated by fear of the unknown of life.
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Old 12-22-2014, 06:41 PM #4073
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
That comic definitely doesn't apply to everyone, it just points out that just as some Christians beliefs are motivated by fear of the unknown of death, some atheists beliefs are motivated by fear of the unknown of life.
Except WHO WOULD IT APPLY TO?

How would someone who DOESN'T BELIEVE something exists, be AFRAID of it?

ONLY THEISTS fear the unknown in that way, NOT Atheists.

You can't PROJECT your own fears onto parties that BY DEFINITION don't believe that what YOU are afraid of exists.



Its not a flippable scenario.




If you wanted to say an atheist feared death, or being bitten by a rabid dog, or a dogged rabbit, etc....fine, we BELIEVE THAT THOSE EXIST.

The DIFFERENCE is that we are not afraid of what you are are afraid of as far as GOD.


If I told you you lived in fear of Santa Claus, and that's why you didn't want him to exist, its your WORST FEAR!!!!! You'd look at me funny, because, that's silly, you KNOW there IS NO Santa Claus, so WHY would you BE afraid?


Does that make any sense?


IE:: The cartoon is obviously written by a theist who wants to flip the sentiment so that the ATHEISTS are afraid instead of the theists....but, cannot imagine not believing in god, so, has the ATHEIST still acting as though there IS A god, despite the ATHEIST part.

THINKING LIKE AN ATHEIST was simply beyond the scope of the cartoon's creator...so he put his OWN thoughts into the atheist's mouth, and said and acted like a theist pretending to be an atheist...but, doing a poor impression.


So, set up a straw atheist, and, knock it down in effigy.


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Old 12-22-2014, 06:54 PM #4074
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The comics depicts a very possible scenario, if an atheist has doubts about his beliefs, it's possible for him to then fear the possibility of god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
ONLY THEISTS fear the unknown in that way, NOT Atheists.
BTW

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Old 12-22-2014, 06:55 PM #4075
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I think all of the discussions are like this:

1) I have listened to your logical and well presented and factual evidence of god's existence, and, I am no longer an atheist, I now believe in god's existence, thank you!

2) I have listened to your logical and well presented and factual evidence of god's non-existence, and, I am no longer a theist, I now no longer believe in god's existence, thank you!



Said no one, ever.


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Old 12-22-2014, 07:02 PM #4076
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The comics depicts a very possible scenario, if an atheist has doubts about his beliefs, it's possible for him to then fear the possibility of god.



BTW

If an atheist has doubts about his beliefs, he is not an atheist. That would be an agnostic.



This might ALSO apply to a theist who has doubts about his beliefs.


After that, I think its just a matter of degree. HOW sure do you need to be about ALL aspects of your "belief" or "dis-belief" to be reclassified?


If you think, maybe, that you should NOT kill your children for talking back, or that there's no real possibility that Noah found animals not native to the middle east and at the bottom of thermal vents miles down in the ocean, etc...does that make you an agnostic, in that PART of your belief is suspended where your own personal judgement is in conflict?

Or maybe an Atheist is about to be in a car crash and yells "OH GOD NO!!!", is he now a theist?

How many tacos do you have to eat to BE Mexican?


I'm sure ALL humans are SOMEWHERE on a sliding scale of 100% one way to the other in their belief systems...its PART of being human I think.


I'm sure there are atheists and theists who at least trespass the borders from time to time...without being "agnostics" per se...its going to be about degree.

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Old 12-22-2014, 07:41 PM #4077
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 12-22-2014, 08:14 PM #4078
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 12-22-2014, 08:44 PM #4079
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
TBTW

Hold on just a second. Are you not the one dealing in absolutes when you claim that there is a god?

Not only that, but the specific god? The specific way relate to that god? The specific punishments if you don't, etc,.?

That's a heck of a lot more definitive than the atheist position of I don't know, but rationally it doesn't make sense for there to be one.
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:44 AM #4080
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Hold on just a second. Are you not the one dealing in absolutes when you claim that there is a god?

Not only that, but the specific god? The specific way relate to that god? The specific punishments if you don't, etc,.?

That's a heck of a lot more definitive than the atheist position of I don't know, but rationally it doesn't make sense for there to be one.
I think the "Absolutes" reference was because he focused on the part of the phrase "only theists", but missed the context of only theists would believe in god vs atheists who would not.

In the context of fearing the wrath of god/an imaginary creature, ONLY a theist would fear it.....but, because he saw the part that said only theists...he jumped to the conclusion that I had painted with too broad a brush stroke.

Of course, it is FAIR to say only theists believe that god exists in the context of the paragraph, etc....with the implication that atheists would not...given the definition of a theist vs an atheist, etc.


When quickly scanning for only vulnerabilities in an argument, instead of an understanding of the content and context, it is easy to prematurely focus on what might be a chink in armor w/o noticing it is not.

When one is threatened by the content, and the thought of accidentally becoming cognizant of a discordant concept could occur if allowed to ponder the content, the content CANNOT be safely considered in an unbiased fashion, it would be too dangerous.

This is why atheists have an unfair advantage in arguments about theology. ALL the evidence that can be reviewed and compared and evaluated supports the atheists position, and NONE of it supports the theist position.

The theist position is, essentially, that supernatural forces explain things, and, that supernatural forces cannot be proven, and must be accepted on faith.

So the atheists say "here is my evidence, where is yours?"

and

the theists say "I have no evidence, but, that doesn't mean I'm wrong."


And both are frustrated that the other can't see the wisdom of their position.

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