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Old 12-18-2014, 02:23 PM #3953
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I think the atheists also mostly just want to share and talk about their beliefs, but there is definitely an atheist cultural superiority complex that some people fall into believing that Christians are stupid for their beliefs and should be patronized.
I'm not sure that's a fair request though...as Christians did the same to other primitive cultures they encountered, and made fun of/did not respect the primitive tribe's religions in the exact same way.

IE: If you see something that seems silly, its hard not to laugh.


I'm sure when the Christians laughed at the rituals and gods of the tribes their missionaries went out to "save", that THOSE TRIBES felt as bad as you do now.


Example: (Pasted with link)

Shona traditional literature is loaded with beyond believe examples like changelings[ varume vaisanduka kuita shumba - men who turn into lions] cross marriages[ Tsuro naGudo-Hare and Baboon] having human wifes, or the popular song from Thomas Mapfumo “Nyarara mukadzi wangu” about a woman married to a snake.

So many are the examples of extra ordinary things happening and it was the duty of Sarungano to pass down these miracles to children to solidify their religion and it was the duty of the missionaries to ridicule and show the children how shallow , improbable and backward these stories were.

The new teachers took local folktales literally and biblical ones symbolically with the desired effect of degrading the former and uplifting the latter. Children now used Ngano to mock the Sarungano and descrate the Shona traditional religion as primitive, backward and barbaric or at worst as devil worship. - See more at: http://www.zimeye.org/ngano-and-the-....fW5LCrDv.dpuf


When missionaries show up, and say your religion is superstitious nonsense, and that THEIR religion is the one to follow, sometimes the missionaries do it in a subtle, kind way, and the primitive tribe is seduced into following them, and, sometimes, Conquistadors, etc, show up and its less of a seduction per se.

Things are not so bad when its YOUR SIDE'S missionaries and Conquistadors...but, when you're on the OTHER side, well, its far less pleasant on some cases....when you don't accept the new belief system being imposed on you.


So, if you were to imagine that YOU are a member of the tribe being told that YOUR beliefs are silly superstitious nonsense...you become offended, and, want to fight back, just as all of your predecessors who worshiped trees and rocks did.

NO ONE thinks that THEIR OWN beliefs are silly superstitious nonsense. Its the OTHER guy's beliefs that are silly superstitious nonsense (Because you CAN look at the OTHER guy's beliefs OBJECTIVELY). Christianity has held the position that Christians should go out and CHANGE those primitives to believing in Christianity's belief system.

Is that because Christians think that they are superior, and that the primitives are stupid and ignorant? OR, is it because Christians know the TRUTH, and, see the primitives' lives as being improved if they knew it too?




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Old 12-18-2014, 02:26 PM #3954
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I'm not sure that's a fair request though...as Christians did the same to other primitive cultures they encountered, and made fun of/did not respect the primitive tribe's religions in the exact same way.

IE: If you see something that seems silly, its hard not to laugh.


I'm sure when the Christians laughed at the rituals and gods of the tribes their missionaries went out to "save", that THOSE TRIBES felt as bad as you do now.
You have a point, but just because one man (or culture) did something wrong, doesn't give another man (or another culture) the right to do something wrong to another.
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:29 PM #3955
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't feel bad about it, I stand firm in my faith, but I will point out that an atheist cultural superiority complex (that some fall into) exists here on this forum and elsewhere.
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:51 PM #3956
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I don't feel bad about it, I stand firm in my faith, but I will point out that an atheist cultural superiority complex (that some fall into) exists here on this forum and elsewhere.
I disagree. Read the rest of my post to read why. (I edited and the rest appeared after your post)


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Old 12-18-2014, 02:53 PM #3957
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

No matter our theories, no matter our religion, reality remains a mystery!
It's as simple as that!

No human interpretationof Nature solves the mystery so far, either.

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Old 12-18-2014, 03:00 PM #3958
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
You have a point, but just because one man (or culture) did something wrong, doesn't give another man (or another culture) the right to do something wrong to another.
True. But why is the abuser always the one to say this, when his own actions are under scrutiny?

If you beat people when you have the bat, and you drop it, and someone else picks it up to beat YOU, and you say hey, just because I beat you is no reason to beat ME!...it comes off as hollow.


In perspective of course, YOU didn't beat anyone. Just like no living American white person legally owned slaves...but, some descendents of the slaves hold the descendents of the slave holders, and anyone who looks like them, responsible.


The point is that its apart of human nature to try to get others to understand things.

If they get offended because they are deeply invested in their belief system, you either walk away because you don't care about them enough to want to bother helping them (Like a drowning person might fight his rescuer and need to be knocked out to save them)...or, you give it a go to see if you can get through to them....punch them in the jaw and knock them out, and drag them to the beach to start resuscitation or whatever they need.

When they wake up, they then either punch you back, sue you for damages, or, thank you for saving their life.

It depends upon how they perceive your efforts to save them.

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Old 12-18-2014, 03:04 PM #3959
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encap View Post
No matter our theories, no matter our religion, reality remains a mystery!
It's as simple as that!

No human interpretation solves the mystery so far, either.
Why is reality a mystery? I don't feel mystified...why do you?

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Old 12-18-2014, 03:05 PM #3960
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Why is reality a mystery? I don't feel mystified...why do you?
Read my previous post.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:05 PM #3961
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I disagree. Read the rest of my post to read why. (I edited and the rest appeared after your post)

Your stories dilute the point you're trying to make to the point that I don't know what it is. I refer you back to post #3798 and your quote

Quote:
I'm sure you are correct, except I think in terms of analogies...so, doing so would require me to not just quickly write a post, but to take the time to distill it to its essence, and, while that WOULD be MUCH better, I knock these out in between other stuff on my desk I'm doing to make a living....

...and I have time to stream out what I'm thinking, but not to edit it to a more concise form.

You are 100% correct though, and I agree with you.

Maybe in the future I'll re-read what I wrote and see if I can edit the older posts in that way.
If you want to communicate well, quality over quantity is important.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:10 PM #3962
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Read my previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
You have a point, but just because one man (or culture) did something wrong, doesn't give another man (or another culture) the right to do something wrong to another.
OK?

I need you to explain the relevance.

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Old 12-18-2014, 03:21 PM #3963
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Your stories dilute the point you're trying to make to the point that I don't know what it is. I refer you back to post #3798 and your quote



If you want to communicate well, quality over quantity is important.


Shorter version: (Leaving out factual support for brevity)

When Christians did to all "primitive" religions as you feel is done to Christianity by later belief systems...Christians reacted the way the primitive religions reacted to the Christians.

You implied that because Atheists see Christianity as primitive, we are therefore telling you that because we think that we are superior.

My answer was that, on the contrary, we were simply telling you what WE see the truth as, just as the missionaries sent to save the primitives were sent to do.

The missionaries were trained to tear down the silly superstitious nonsense of the old belief systems, and to tell the natives, etc, that the church's belief system was the truth instead.


So, the objective was to spread the truth, not to spread a superiority complex.

If we BOTH say we know the truth, and, we are each trying to "save the other guy" from his false truth and get him to see the REAL TRUTH....

...BOTH sides think they are right, and the other guy is wrong....

...so ONE side saying that the OTHER SIDE is the one with a superiority complex, is a bit disingenuous.


IE: If you don't have a REAL argument, attack the party you are arguing with, saying they just think they're right because they think they're better than us.


We are BOTH trying to spread the TRUTH. We just disagree as to what that IS.


I think that there are no supernatural events or entities, you believe that there are.


I base my beliefs on things that can be proven and confirmed and which are falsifiable if not true.

You base your belief system on a book given to you by a party that is in the business of selling that belief system...and which is in conflict with known data, but simply says "its true so you better believe it", as proof that its true.


YOU feel that you have faith anyway, given the life experiences you have had, etc, and I feel that that's not enough for me given the life experiences that I have had, etc.


You ended up superstitious (Believing in supernatural phenomenon if you didn't know of a natural explanation), and I ended up believing that nature is natural.

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Old 12-18-2014, 03:28 PM #3964
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:09 PM #3965
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think the theists mostly just want to share and talk about their beliefs, some just want to argue, and some try to come at it with a good heart and spread the word so their fellow man will be "saved"

I think the atheists also mostly just want to share and talk about their beliefs, but there is definitely an atheist cultural superiority complex that some people fall into believing that Christians are stupid for their beliefs and should be patronized.
Thank you for your reply Duke. I do NOT think theists are crazy, or stupid and I do my best to correct other that say things like this.
I will only speak for myself. If you notice I haven't been attacking peoples beliefs even though I'm sure many feel I have. I have been attacking the reasons people hold their beliefs. I'm not here to get people to agree with me but rather help them to understand the WHY they believe.

For me this is why I take the time to write and debate religious claims. Our beliefs directly affect the decisions and choices we make on a daily basis. Especially the big ones. It doesn't matter how good of a person the vast majority are not able to separate their beliefs from their decisions. We don't live in a vacume but live in a world where OUR actions and choices affect other people.

In the case for God and religion, these beliefs many times take away human rights, stop and block progress in many different areas and fuel bigotry to name just a few. Maybe you don't but the thing you believe for solely personal reasons is the center of the damage. So I would hope its clear why its important that what we believe is accurate and has the highest likelihood of being true and correct

My second reason is to remind people that they really do not have any good reasons other than personal ones to justify their beliefs. This isn't too belittle but to hopefully get them to set those beliefs aside when making choices that affect other people. gay rights, education and science in schools, missionaries stripping away indigenous cultures from people who never asked them to just show up on their lands. Ext. This is why it matters. It matters big time.

I come down hard on Usabro because he is young and already demonstrating the worst attitudes and characteristics of the people that are doing the real damage here in the States. The way I see it he is a lost cause and so utterly indoctrinated that their is little doubt of his future effects on society IMO.
(there you go Usabro, you asked me once why I am so hard on you)
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:14 PM #3966
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
OK?

I need you to explain the relevance.

[QUOTE=Teej;1338676]

It seems the Christian faith is the only faith that people are persecuted for.

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Old 12-18-2014, 07:34 PM #3967
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post

It seems the Christian faith is the only faith that people are persecuted for.
Um, that's ridiculous.


Did you ever hear of, say, Nazis?

When Hitler was elected, Germany was responsible for the persecution of millions of Jews.

Before Hitler and Nazis, the Russians and Poles, etc, persecuted Jews, with Pogroms, etc.

If you want to get technical, Jesus and his followers were all Jewish...so it was still JEWS being prosecuted, and so forth.


Now a days, if you go to Africa, you can find plenty of genocide/persecution of other faiths.

In the Crusades, the Muslims were persecuted.

In the Inquisition, all but Catholics were persecuted.

Go to Bosnia and Serbia, and ask if only Christians were persecuted.

Go to Israel, and ask if only Christians feel persecuted. The Jews and Muslims would tell you THEY are persecuted by each other for example.

And so on and so forth.

PLENTY of actual EXAMPLES of proof that Christianity is NOT the only religion people have been persecuted for. In fact, there's MORE evidence that Christians have DONE more persecution than they have suffered.

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Once again, its really hard to see where you get your information from.

It all has been wrong, so, at least as far as topics relevant to this discussion, you might want to consider broadening your life experiences to include at least ONE source that you could cite that is actually factually correct.

ONE would be a good start.




I almost counted your statement that oxygen supports combustion, except you were trying to use it as a rebuttal, out of context, where it didn't actually make any sense...so, your source that indicated it might be a rebuttal was wrong about it being one. So I couldn't count it as the "one" correct source.


Its like arguing that helium balloons sink in water because they are heavier than water, and that things that are heavier than water sink in it....

...when helium is lighter than both air and water, so, it won't sink, but, you're correct about things sinking that ARE heavier, etc.


Last edited by Teej; 12-18-2014 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:50 PM #3968
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
those beliefs of mine are backed by personal experiences which can be independently verified. In past posts you've neglected to recognize shared beliefs and experiences as validation, and I don't expect you to or think you should, but I would not say existence of god is not "independently verifiable".
We're going in circles again. What makes your "divine intervention" (or whatever you've experienced) more valid than the "divine intervention" of a muslim, or an ancient greek? They would say the same as you do, and yet their beliefs contradict yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
there is definitely an atheist cultural superiority complex that some people fall into believing that Christians are stupid for their beliefs and should be patronized.
Arguably not as patronizing as believing everyone that thinks differently than yourself (>99% of humans, technically, if you count those in the past and future) will spend eternity in hellfire.

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Originally Posted by Encap View Post
reality remains a mystery!
It's a good think you're not a scientist. That defeatist attitude wouldn't get you far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
It seems the Christian faith is the only faith that people are persecuted for.
You're a colossal idiot if you actually believe that.

Look up the holocaust some time.
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Last edited by Cyparagon; 12-18-2014 at 09:54 PM. Reason: correction
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