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Old 12-14-2014, 08:55 PM #3937
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 12-14-2014, 11:08 PM #3938
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 12-14-2014, 11:58 PM #3939
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I don't think "Losing One's Faith" is as accurate as "Realizing the Truth".

We speak of kids "Finding Out There's No Santa", not in terms of "Losing their Belief in Santa".

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Old 12-15-2014, 12:11 AM #3940
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I don't think "Losing One's Faith" is as accurate as "Realizing the Truth".

We speak of kids "Finding Out There's No Santa", not in terms of "Losing their Belief in Santa".

Yes, its a figure of speech. I assumed you know what I meant.
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:57 AM #3941
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Yes, its a figure of speech. I assumed you know what I meant.
LOL

It wasn't a "correction", of you, it was an observation, ABOUT the figure of speech itself.


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Old 12-15-2014, 10:51 PM #3942
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL

It wasn't a "correction", of you, it was an observation, ABOUT the figure of speech itself.

Hehe! Ahhh, Im great at missing the obvious at times. cheers.
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:47 AM #3943
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And what do you think about the thousands of various religious texts that contradict your own? Why does yours have more validity than the others?
You seem well enough educated on the Bible's validity, all I can really offer to that question is my personal beliefs which I don't think actually contribute to the bibles validity in your viewpoint.
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:32 AM #3944
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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You seem well enough educated on the Bible's validity, all I can really offer to that question is my personal beliefs which I don't think actually contribute to the bibles validity in your viewpoint.
The odds are that your personal beliefs happen to be about the same as your parent's personal beliefs in most cases.

The bible itself, and associated belief system, meaning the one you use personally, as you have surmised, is not more likely to be the correct bible, etc, because you feel that it is.

It doesn't mean you don't feel that way of course....its just that the majority of the world's population disagrees with you. THAT doesn't mean your bible is less valid either, just that they all feel that their personal beliefs lead to a different bible being correct instead.

You already personally believe that your beliefs are correct because you believe that...and, everyone else believes that their personal beliefs are correct because they believe that they are.

ALL of the arguments that a particular belief system is correct, are contradicted by other belief systems, also claiming to be correct, and ALL firmly convinced that ONLY THEY are correct, and everyone else is wrong.

So ALL religions seem to claim to be the ONE TRUE religion, and that ALL of the OTHER religions are false.


If all of these religions could work it out and tell us Atheists who's right, it would be a great starting point.

Until then, it seems the most logical conclusion is that ALL them are at least right about their competition being incorrect. (As there is nothing else they could ALL be correct about in that regard)




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Old 12-18-2014, 02:39 AM #3945
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The odds are that your personal beliefs happen to be about the same as your parent's personal beliefs in most cases.

The bible itself, and associated belief system, meaning the one you use personally, as you have surmised, is not more likely to be the correct bible, etc, because you feel that it is.

It doesn't mean you don't feel that way of course....its just that the majority of the world's population disagrees with you. THAT doesn't mean your bible is less valid either, just that they all feel that their personal beliefs lead to a different bible being correct instead.

You already personally believe that your beliefs are correct because you believe that...and, everyone else believes that their personal beliefs are correct because they believe that they are.

ALL of the arguments that a particular belief system is correct, are contradicted by other belief systems, also claiming to be correct, and ALL firmly convinced that ONLY THEY are correct, and everyone else is wrong.

So ALL religions seem to claim to be the ONE TRUE religion, and that ALL of the OTHER religions are false.


If all of these religions could work it out and tell us Atheists who's right, it would be a great starting point.

Until then, it seems the most logical conclusion is that ALL them are at least right about their competition being incorrect.



Yes. Just because most people don't agree, doesn't mean your not right.
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:44 AM #3946
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yes. Just because most people don't agree, doesn't mean your not right.
That is true. Even if everyone doesn't agree, anyone, or no one, could be right.



For example, the forum members who believe in talking snakes and that the earth is younger than some of the trees on it, the earth doesn't rotate, and, that there might not be gravity....disagree with me...

...but it doesn't mean I'm not right.


The difference is that some people can point to reasons for what they think, that others can then verify....and, others point to feelings and wishes that can't be verified, or lies that can be proven as lies, yet expect others to somehow be swayed.





You MIGHT tell me that you have a 10,000 lb purple dragon sitting on your head. I can't prove you don't from here. I ask if you can see it and how can your head hold up that dragon, etc, and you say you can't see it or feel it, but, you know its there, in your heart...and you have faith its there.

And I say prove it,..... and you say that if I can't prove its not there, then obviously, it is!

My neighbor has a purple dragon on HIS head too...same argument, but says you're lying about yours.

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Old 12-18-2014, 02:52 AM #3947
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You also can't prove that it isn't on the persons head if you were their, because the world and everything could just be an illusion or something similar. However, we both know such things like that are stupid, so the chance of that being true, is microscopic.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:01 AM #3948
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A couple of thoughts:

1. There are two kinds of human thoughts: Those that handle the physical that does exist and...those that handle the non-physical that is fiction that doesn't exist

2. Religious belief is a fine guide around which a person might organize his own life, but an awful instrument around which to organize someone else's life. ~ Richard Mohr

3. We all think that we know what is real. All we have to do is reach out and touch it. Yet, we also know that we dream, and our dreams are as real to us when we dream as our external world is to us when we are awake. We dismiss our dreams as unreal, but we do this only when we are not in the dream world. When in the dream world, we acknowledge its reality fully, only to deny it again when we leave.

4.A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes.

5. If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
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Old 12-18-2014, 05:16 AM #3949
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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...all I can really offer to that question is my personal beliefs which I don't think actually contribute to the bibles validity in your viewpoint.
So to re-cap:

"the bible can't be evidence"
you: "I don't believe that's the case"
me: "Care to elaborate? Why is your holy book better than the other guy's holy book"
you: "You wouldn't understand"

Seems like an admittance that the validity of this book is not independently verifiable, (since that's the evidence system that I work with). Many people do not consider personal beliefs to be evidence, but since you do, we'll go back to the first statement and add few words: "the bible can't be evidence [that is independently verifiable]"

Yes?
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:46 AM #3950
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

ANY claim assertion or belief can't be known to be ultimately true or false. It has a probability of being one of those and that's it. Those that have evidence like verifiable observations have a higher probability of those that do not. Those that can make predictions that are then demonstrated have an even higher likely hood of being correct. So on and so forth.

Unfortunately for some of you here the Bible is categorically not evidence any more than the ancient text the Odyssey is. They both contain some information that is true but that doesn't give credence to the claims of the spectacular when there are not any other ways to verify.
When the Bible speaks of the ancient city of Jericho It is not correct because it says so. It is correct because we have been able to verify and conclude that Jericho was a real place. Because it is correct about Jericho doesn't mean it is correct about talking snakes and miracles. This is very often a weak argument I hear a lot from theists.


What seems to fuel peoples convictions that the Bible is a credible source for "truth" or knowledge, and for the very extreme, a science book is its popularity. In order to have the highest chance of accurately understanding our world we do not determine probability based on popular consensus.

As a resource for verifying the extraordinary claims and accounts, the Bible is completely inadmissible and irrelevant beyond a personal reason.

You know what I find surprising? Why not one theist in this conversation has asked the question why does any of this matter. Why do a handful of atheists care so much what other people believe? Why don't we just shut the hell up and let the faithful be.

Let me then ask the defenders of gods and miracles why do you think this matters so much to some people? Do you think we just like arguing or get off on some intellectual superiority pissing match?
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:01 PM #3951
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
ANY claim assertion or belief can't be known to be ultimately true or false. It has a probability of being one of those and that's it. Those that have evidence like verifiable observations have a higher probability of those that do not. Those that can make predictions that are then demonstrated have an even higher likely hood of being correct. So on and so forth.

Unfortunately for some of you here the Bible is categorically not evidence any more than the ancient text the Odyssey is. They both contain some information that is true but that doesn't give credence to the claims of the spectacular when there are not any other ways to verify.
When the Bible speaks of the ancient city of Jericho It is not correct because it says so. It is correct because we have been able to verify and conclude that Jericho was a real place. Because it is correct about Jericho doesn't mean it is correct about talking snakes and miracles. This is very often a weak argument I hear a lot from theists.


What seems to fuel peoples convictions that the Bible is a credible source for "truth" or knowledge, and for the very extreme, a science book is its popularity. In order to have the highest chance of accurately understanding our world we do not determine probability based on popular consensus.

As a resource for verifying the extraordinary claims and accounts, the Bible is completely inadmissible and irrelevant beyond a personal reason.

You know what I find surprising? Why not one theist in this conversation has asked the question why does any of this matter. Why do a handful of atheists care so much what other people believe? Why don't we just shut the hell up and let the faithful be.

Let me then ask the defenders of gods and miracles why do you think this matters so much to some people? Do you think we just like arguing or get off on some intellectual superiority pissing match?


A strong tendency between a fear based psychology and beliefs in the supernatural was found in studies.

In essence, if you are a fearful person (NOT a coward, that's a different meaning), in that you are very concerned with potential threats, and, tend to spend efforts to overcome them, and have a strong psychological need to be ABLE to control them, you are statistically more likely to believe in the supernatural.

This tends to correlate with gambling, superstitions, religion and other overlapping belief issues.

For example, if you fit into the above group, you are more likely to be religious, and, also more likely to have a set of acts or artifacts that you feel make your team more likely to win or a hand of cards to be in your favor, etc,...the "Lucky Jersey Phenomenon", good luck charms, or thing you do or wear to help ensure victory, etc.

EVERYONE is on a sliding scale according to these studies, with no one being 100% one way, or, the other. There also appears to be a genetic aspect to the effect, but the actual genes are still being worked out, with a good correlation for what they have done so far.

A mild version might be some body language a person might "use to encourage a bowling bowl to hit where it needs to", without expecting it to REALLY make a difference, and then it can scale up to believing and acting as though you have actual real supernatural powers.

IE: The tendency to simply be more likely to accept something because it makes you feel safer and more in control/less vulnerable to threats.

A "zombie prepper" is a extreme example, in that they are preparing for something that is statistically unlikely to happen, using resources perhaps better allocated to threats that have a higher statistical likelihood...but which they don't feel as threatened by.

A gambler is, typically, someone who ignores the fact that, statistically, the odds are in the house's favor....and, that the entire BASIS for running a casino, etc, is based upon that. THEY believe that THEY can overcome those statistical odds. The REASON they do that is because they think they will get "Lucky", and, potentially win a LOT of money in return for taking that risk. IE: The reward justifies the risk. They can rationalize it, say by saying SOMEONE'S lottery ticket has to win, so, they "hope" it will be them....and buy a ticket for a few bucks hoping they will get millions of them back.

Those who buy lottery tickets, go to casinos, etc, believe that they are going to beat the odds, and, typically, have rituals they do "to help them win", etc.



A religious zealot is perhaps more threatened by the thought of simply "ending", than say being eaten by zombies, so, spends resources (mental/physical, etc) on trying to ensure that this threat is taken care of so they can relax a bit.

The IDEA that they are still vulnerable is so terrifying that they cannot even contemplate it. They will shut down the parts of the brain they need to to preserve that protection, and do any rationalization needed to justify it.

Consciously, of course, they are going to ONLY have the rationalizations they armed themselves with, and be unaware that they have even done it most of the time.

This is why they make all sorts of either, crazy arguments that use false and misleading attempts to make their cases (Because there are no real ones, so, that's the only option if going that direction), or, simple claims of faith, which therefore require no validation/can't be falsified, and are essentially saying " I believe this, and, I can't explain why, I just do, and you'd better believe it too, or else".

The argument is therefore to assuage themselves, by ending it with something that, while it proves nothing, at least allows an answer in a tone that they will perceive as being a good answer that can end the discussion. Debaters that understand this principle can use tone and body language, etc, to always sound as though what they said proved their point, and what the other side said was ludicrous, etc....even when the actual words are meaningless. IE: Say meaningless drivel, and/or a bad argument presented as though it were a good one, using a confident and victorious tone and posture will convince those who don't understand things well, that you ARE confident and victorious.



It makes a person feel less vulnerable if they see more evidence that they are right. This is one of the many reasons a fight can break out over why one baseball or soccer team is better than another.

If you invested enough in a team, and you feel like you're a member of that tribe so to speak, the idea that you picked the wrong tribe and should change tribes, is very very threatening...

...so reactions are going to start with comparing batting averages or rings or championships, and digress to fist fights because the OTHER tribe refused to acknowledge your tribe's supremacy.

This is essentially a version of a religious war.


Last edited by Teej; 12-18-2014 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:12 PM #3952
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You already personally believe that your beliefs are correct because you believe that...and, everyone else believes that their personal beliefs are correct because they believe that they are.
I've already directly responded to you on this subject in post #3873. Belief alone doesn't make that belief correct.

@ Cyparagon

So to revise:

"the bible can't be evidence"
me: "I don't believe that's the case"
you: "Care to elaborate? Why is your holy book better than the other guy's holy book"
me: "You are able and probably have independently verified the physical evidence, all I can offer you are my beliefs which are not validation to you, but those beliefs of mine are backed by personal experiences which can be independently verified. In past posts you've neglected to recognize shared beliefs and experiences as validation, and I don't expect you to or think you should, but I would not say existence of god is not "independently verifiable".

@ nwfreefly

Quote:
Let me then ask the defenders of gods and miracles why do you think this matters so much to some people? Do you think we just like arguing or get off on some intellectual superiority pissing match?
I think the theists mostly just want to share and talk about their beliefs, some just want to argue, and some try to come at it with a good heart and spread the word so their fellow man will be "saved"

I think the atheists also mostly just want to share and talk about their beliefs, but there is definitely an atheist cultural superiority complex that some people fall into believing that Christians are stupid for their beliefs and should be patronized.
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