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Old 12-12-2014, 09:14 PM #3905
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Super old.


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Old 12-12-2014, 09:20 PM #3906
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

OLD

but it's much better to believe this due to the facts and evidence rather than because any given number of people also believe it
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:33 PM #3907
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Its ridiculous how creationist have to tie themselves into knots to try to defend their position. Ie. god made the earth to appear old, god placed fossils in the ground as a test of Christians faith, when god created the cosmos he made it so the starlight was already on the way to earth therefor visible to us. Why and how the hell can any rational person buy this load of BS.

What is more likely, that the earth is as old as All the observations and measurements find, or that god was a trixter and made things to appear old? Creationists have to go to such absurd lengths to try and reconcile a young earth that they cross the line to straight up dishonesty. I always wished a study would be done on young earth-ers to see how many can pass a polygraph test when asked if they believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Creationist HAVE to believe this because it threatens to unravel their entire belief structure but I truly doubt many of them actually do believe this. I think many of them, especially the educated ones would not pass a polygraph.

This is why it doesn't matter what they are shown or even what their own studies reflect. A creationist has made their mind up to accept the absurd position of a young earth and there isn't anything that can get them to let go of their ideas. They are intellectually DISHONEST. This is why I have ZERO respect for a Y.E.C. and why I feel its fair to ridicule their beliefs.
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:58 PM #3908
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah I'd agree with the star light, but the fossils, I'm pretty sure things fossilized faster than you think.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:06 PM #3909
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
OLD

but it's much better to believe this due to the facts and evidence rather than because any given number of people also believe it
I'm just separating the wheat/chaff as far as the god/creationist aspect.

IE: There are MANY people who are not atheists, but who don't buy the ark with dinosaurs in it.

Most Christians are NOT creationists...its a small sub-set.

Most HUMANS believe in god or gods...and, may or may not believe in their cultures creation myths as either fact or parable, etc...those are, again, sub-sets.

Humans who do not believe in God have made that leap from polytheism to monotheism with lots of supernatural immortal beings (those ARE "gods" in my book, but, lets not quibble), to monotheism with no other entities that are supernatural, to, finally atheism..the belief in one fewer gods than monotheists.



If a person's belief system is based upon a belief system that says you have to believe in the belief system to follow that belief system, as the SOLE criterion for its truth...well, there's not much to argue with, UNLESS they try to make a case for it being logical to ANYONE ELSE.

If a person's belief system is based upon a morass of misinformation and purposefully deceptive propaganda, with not a SINGLE logical argument (Creationism), then any attempt on their part to argue it is fair game...

..as it goes from being their own private belief, to being their own gullibility on trial.



I never just walk up to anyone out of the blue and tell them that extinct dinosaurs and people did not live at the same time, or that some rocks take a long time to form, and that they are not all the same as each other, or how C14 dating actually WORKS, etc.

If I see a parent telling kids something harmful, counter to that, to push an essentially misguided religious agenda, to me, its akin to child abuse, much as a parent who wont let a kid get a polio shot "for religious reasons", etc.

So, if the creationists don't try to convince others...it just festers quietly. If they try to see the light of day and go public, then, they're the one's throwing down the gauntlet.

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Old 12-12-2014, 10:07 PM #3910
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm going to have to go with OLD!

I've been following this thread for a while now, it's been very entertaining and educational! Thanks to all of the debate participants!
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:11 PM #3911
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Yeah I'd agree with the star light, but the fossils, I'm pretty sure things fossilized faster than you think.
You can correct it, but, it SOUNDS like you are leaning towards Young?

--------------------


I see, so, YOU are "Pretty Sure", because you are a geologist?

Because you studied geology, and KNOW how long it takes to "form rocks"?

Or, because they need to do things they don't really do a lot faster than they really do them, to make sense of the FACTS?


Do you even know what "fossilized" means?

Creationists don't. They show pictures of things that are not fossilized creatures, labeling the pictures as fossilized creatures, and then draw conclusions about the misinformation. Or send things with no carbon in them, to be Carbon14 dated, so they can say C14 dating doesn't work, etc.


Lucy:
Well, look here! A big yellow butterfly! It’s unusual to see one this time of year unless, of course, he flew up from Brazil... I’ll bet that’s it! They do that sometimes, you know... They fly up from Brazil, and they...

Linus:
This is no butterfly... This is a potato chip!

Lucy:
Well, I’ll be! So it is! I wonder how a potato chip got all the way up here from Brazil?




There are no examples of fast fossilization that prove that all fossilization was fast. There are of course examples of minerals being deposited quickly from water, such as calcium compounds. The water with calcium compounds that drip from limestone caves and for stalagmites and stalactites would be an example. Concrete can set quickly. But to say ALL of them happen quickly because concretion occurs is like saying "You say that cars have been around for decades, but here a picture from a car dealership showing a BRAND NEW CAR!!!! If this is a brand new car, HOW can you say cars have been around for DECADES!?!"


It is typical to act as though all rocks for the same way, or all mineralization occurs the same way, but, they do not.

Creationists find an example that on the surface seems to have potential relevance, but, then use it in the wrong context, so that the conclusion is as valid as the potato chip coming from Brazil above.


IE: Yes, you can find concretion of materials...and, to a lay person, it might LOOK like rock...but to a person who knows rocks for a living, the sizes of crystals, the actual minerals involved, the substrata, and other factors reveal the age and time frames involved.

For example, there is molten rock under the earth's crust. It comes up through the crust sometimes, and, on its way, depending on how FAST it comes up...it can change form.

The rocks above the molten rock can actually get soft enough to bend, the tectonic plates can actually be knocked up or down at the edges they hit at, tilting the rocks at crazy angles...and, molten rock was under tremendous pressure and high temperatures, and, it will show signs of that.

So, if there was one flood, and all rock was from the sediment that settled from that...there would be one layer of sedimentary rock (The kind of rock formed by sediment), AND that sediment would be all the same if the entire world was flooded at the same time...so it would all be the same TYPE or TYPES of sedimentary rock, not just "sedimentary rock".

IE: There are many types of sedimentary rock, based upon what was in the sediment, and, how it was deposited, and what was later over it, etc.

IF ALL the life on the planet was killed in the one short flood, the "fossils" would all be in that ONE layer of sedimentary rock.


The FACTS are that none of the above is the case anywhere in the world. SUre, lots of places had floods, and flood myth creation stories, but THEIR floods, and the Noah flood, are not at the same time...some occurred before that flood would have for example.

So, if a people have lived in an area for thousands of years (Bushman, etc..) and they seem to have not noticed a world wide flood, its likely it didn't come by there.


So, there are way too many layers of rock, and, many of the layers in one continent match up with the continent they USED TO be part of before the tectonic plates separated them...

..and so on and so forth. There are too many examples of known observations that support the estimates of the world's true age...and NONE that actually support the Creationist's version.

ALL of their examples are debunked already. If they find a new one, its debunked too. Its too easy to debunk them, because all of them are ridiculous. Misapplied logic to reach wrong conclusions, outdated/obsolete information, mis-described scientific principles that are then straw maned, etc.


NOT ONE real argument. If they can't come up with even ONE real argument, that SHOULD be a red flag. (That EVERY claim they make is unfounded, period.)


If you are only an impressionable kid, shame on adults who would abuse you in this fashion.


Unfounded, in this context means it doesn't prove what they pretend it proves...they don't prove that the earth is that young.



I was at the Grand Canyon, and other interesting sites, and they give "Creationist Tours". Guides will show people sedimentary layers from BILLIONS of years ago, and tell them they are from Noah's flood.

They will show them melted granite that twisted and bent the sedimentary rock layers it burst up through, and tell them its sedimentary rock even though its igneous.



They will show them glacier carved ancient lake areas that were C-shaped when gouged out by the glacier, and back filled be sediment after the plates of the earth tipped up due to tectonic forces, causing the water from the melted glacier to flow back out of the carved lake....ignore that that layers and scarring and morphology can lead to one conclusion...and just tell them its from the flood.

Its fraud.

Last edited by Teej; 12-12-2014 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:16 PM #3912
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yeah I'd agree with the star light, but the fossils, I'm pretty sure things fossilized faster than you think.
How do you know what I think about the time required for an artifact to fossilize? I have never talked about it before. Things can fossilize in tens of thousands of years or millions. Its not a one size fits all answer.

So usabro you accept that starlight being made en route is silly? That makes it difficult for your young universe model you have been trying to defend no? So do you pick and choose what you believe by what sounds good to YOU? If so then the only factor for your acceptance of the facts is what you like or sounds right to your laymen mind. Therefor when you don't understand something your go to answer is God rather than try to learn more about it. This is the Argument From Ignorance people have been telling you about over and over. Thanks for demonstarting it once again.

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I'm going to have to go with OLD!

I've been following this thread for a while now, it's been very entertaining and educational! Thanks to all of the debate participants!
Yay!!!!! Logic and rational understanding prevails! That alone makes all the time and energy spent here worth it to me.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:19 PM #3913
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Its ridiculous how creationist have to tie themselves into knots to try to defend their position. Ie. god made the earth to appear old, god placed fossils in the ground as a test of Christians faith, when god created the cosmos he made it so the starlight was already on the way to earth therefor visible to us. Why and how the hell can any rational person buy this load of BS.

What is more likely, that the earth is as old as All the observations and measurements find, or that god was a trixter and made things to appear old? Creationists have to go to such absurd lengths to try and reconcile a young earth that they cross the line to straight up dishonesty. I always wished a study would be done on young earth-ers to see how many can pass a polygraph test when asked if they believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Creationist HAVE to believe this because it threatens to unravel their entire belief structure but I truly doubt many of them actually do believe this. I think many of them, especially the educated ones would not pass a polygraph.

This is why it doesn't matter what they are shown or even what their own studies reflect. A creationist has made their mind up to accept the absurd position of a young earth and there isn't anything that can get them to let go of their ideas. They are intellectually DISHONEST. This is why I have ZERO respect for a Y.E.C. and why I feel its fair to ridicule their beliefs.
Oh, I think you would be surprised at how many people would pass that polygraph test.

People are very very good at lying to themselves, and rationalizing away obvious logical discrepancies. It's especially easy when your fallback position, god, doesn't require rational reason, just a leap of faith.

I do believe the majority of religious people are quite honest about their beliefs. Unfortunately just because you're honest, and/or emotional about something, does not make you right.

EDIT: Man this thread moves on fast.

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Old 12-12-2014, 10:22 PM #3914
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm not sure what I think about the starlight, I figure I don't know everything, but maybe when I see God I can ask him.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:23 PM #3915
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Oh, I think you would be surprised at how many people would pass that polygraph test.

People are very very good at lying to themselves, and rationalizing away obvious logical discrepancies. It's especially easy when your fallback position, god, doesn't require rational reason, just a leap of faith.

I do believe the majority of religious people are quite honest about their beliefs. Unfortunately just because you're honest, and/or emotional about something, does not make you right.
This is why I would love to see this study take place. I hear what you are saying and mostly agree but I think if not many some would not pass the test. The subconscious can be detected in a good polygraph. So i agree that yes on their conscious minds they believe they believe so to speak but I think many creationists, especially the scientists ones deep down inside their subconsciousness do not. It would be an interesting study.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:28 PM #3916
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Lucy:
Well, look here! A big yellow butterfly! It’s unusual to see one this time of year unless, of course, he flew up from Brazil... I’ll bet that’s it! They do that sometimes, you know... They fly up from Brazil, and they...

Linus:
This is no butterfly... This is a potato chip!

Lucy:
Well, I’ll be! So it is! I wonder how a potato chip got all the way up here from Brazil?


You forgot the middle ages version add-on;

Priest: Linus is a witch! BURN HIM! BURN THE HERETIC! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS THEE!
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:29 PM #3917
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I'm not sure what I think about the starlight, I figure I don't know everything, but maybe when I see God I can ask him.
So why not use this same honest admission when it comes to God? You would get a lot less flak and maybe even earn some respect if you showed some humility regarding the god you keep on asserting exists. Many Christians I talk to do not claim to know yet you do over and over when it can be demonstrated that it is factually impossible for you to KNOW God exists. Even when I was a Christian I never claimed to know God was real. I had the intellectual honesty to be agnostic then just as I do now. It is not possible to honestly know either way. Anyone can only determine the probability and in the case of the God claim it is very unlikely that one exists.
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Old 12-12-2014, 11:09 PM #3918
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

I agree they'd pass the polygraph too.

People (a lot at least), simply "believe" what they think they're supposed to.

Most modify their actual PRACTICE of that belief to mold it to their actual life and the society they live in.

Many would point to the parts such as Romans 27 to say, see, We need to kill the homos, but ignore the part (30) a little down that also says it about disobedient children, parts about fornicators, etc.

Given the known portion of the population that commit adultery, and the similar penalties...and, the number of disobedient kids...

...Why are there no outcries to kill the kids who talk back and ALL the people who have had an extramarital affair or premarital ***?


Its in the same bible (New Testament), and all, so, why just one of the lines, and, not ALL of them?

What's with the picking and choosing for what OTHER PEOPLE DO, but not for what YOU do?

What about not judging people?

What about doing unto others, etc?


Are they going to claim there are "disobedient kid genes" and "my secretary is too hot to not sack" genes? But not "I like interior designing" genes?

Its hypocritical.

Follow the word of GOD!!!! (Except the parts I don't happen to think are relevant anymore, you know, times were different in the bronze age and all....but YOU have to follow ALL the parts I PERSONALLY feel that in my heart of hearts YOU should follow, and, I KNOW this, because I have faith.)


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Old 12-13-2014, 12:15 AM #3919
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Just to expand a tiny bit... this insanity is true of ANY religion, not just christianity
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Old 12-13-2014, 02:02 AM #3920
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The universe is ancient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
He has his ten commandments.
Ah. The ten commandments.

I'll leave this to Carlin...
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