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Old 12-12-2014, 12:13 PM #3889
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It seems bias do deny the whole bible as evidence because "you believe" it's bias and not to at the very least consider the canonical gospels which are rooted in eye witness accounts. Conciousness could be your logical argument aswell, it cannot be measured or tested but we know it's very real through our experiences, much in the way we can experience the existence of god.
OK, so if the bibles "eye witness accounts" were written by human beings who were there when "it happened" (An eye witness account), AND who's words are supposed to be "Breathed by God, etc), so that its ASSUMED THAT THEY ARE TRUE, why don't they agree with each other?

If we have two disciples for example, describing their "eye witness account" of what they saw with those eyes they were doing the witnessing with...

and one says the Roman said and did this, and the other says he did and said something else, or that they met one beggar, or, they met two beggars, etc...

...WHICH WORDS WAS GOD BREATHING?




If you read the bibles critically, as if they were from, say, someone ELSE's religion....you would be able to read them objectively, without a need to compensate for the flaws and obvious problems...as, currently, believers read them quite defensively...so if a problem is accidentally observed, the FIRST instinct is to find some convoluted way to have it not be a problem, instead of to explore what the implications are.

The reason is that once vested, and you've been brainwashed into blindly accepting it, you CAN'T consider that it is not valid, as it has become PART of you, and, its a personal attack.

Therefore, the religion would have to claim something SO ludicrous that even a person who has a vested interest in swallowing it hook line and sinker, finally says, enough is enough, this is crazy talk.


For many Christians for example, they back away slowly from claims that the earth is younger than its trees and that there were talking snakes and 500 year old men making bathyscaphes, etc...

...but cling to believing in Jesus, and only rejecting the stuff that they can't ignore as ridiculous any longer.


Everyone's intelligence works differently. There are many many forms of brilliance and creativity and genius etc. There are simple people who know enough to know that dinosaurs died out before there were people...and people with a good head on their shoulders who can't make the jump to not needing a god to explain the things they don't know....but know that the dinosaurs were obviously gone long before humans too.

IE: Everyone will have their own "enough is enough" point.


It will be a combination of their need to believe for sociopolitical and perceived moral reasons, IE: They area good person, and, they were taught that to be a good person your faith must be unshakable, so, it is....even if they have to suppress the part of their brain that, for every OTHER logical analysis, they do not suppress.


Its frustrating to try to talk to an OTHERWISE brilliant person who is simply shut down when it comes to that topic, and will fight tooth and nail to try to rationalize why dinosaurs and people were here at the same time and the ark was real as described, etc....but, at the same time, I respect their internal struggle.


I see this struggle in friends, family, coworkers, etc. Its universal. Some compromise and say, OK, I believe in God, but not the bible's version, and accept the stories in the bible as stories, especially if they'd read the same stories in other culture's versions, that predate the Christian version, and were obviously borrowed, etc. They say, essentially, OK, its BASED ON A TRUE STORY, but, dramatized to sell easier to the great unwashed thousands of years ago...

...or they say, its all baloney.

...or they say "Its a history book, and, it says its true, so, it can't not be true, and every word is true, even when they contradict each other, because I WILL find a way to make it not contradict, no matter what mental gymnastics are required to allow myself to continue accepting it as true".

Or something between those versions, etc.


Some people can't make the leap, and, internally, cannot even allow themselves to see the chasm, their brains shut down in self defense. Others see it, but, can't jump, as the fear of not making it and being left stranded or falling is too scary. Some casually see it and make the hop to the other side, and look back at those arguing that there's nothing to jump over, and others about how wide it is and how long the fall is if you don't make it, etc.


My own observation is that people simply cannot and will not accept things past THEIR OWN point of interpretation of what is around them. IE: If they believe something to the point that it being false would crush them to their own "point of no return", you will never be able to convince them otherwise.


The belief in God is one of those things that seems hardest to let go of for some people. They can't contemplate it. Arguments about it are typically fruitless...if your goal is to change their mind.

The belief in creationism, which is not in the bible, it is an interpretation of the bible, by people, is where some people's brains are willing to open a crack and think about it.



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Old 12-12-2014, 12:19 PM #3890
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
OK, so if the bibles "eye witness accounts" were written by human beings who were there when "it happened" (An eye witness account), AND who's words are supposed to be "Breathed by God, etc), so that its ASSUMED THAT THEY ARE TRUE, why don't they agree with each other?

If we have two disciples for example, describing their "eye witness account" of what they saw with those eyes they were doing the witnessing with...

and one says the Roman said and did this, and the other says he did and said something else, or that they met one beggar, or, they met two beggars, etc...

...WHICH WORDS WAS GOD BREATHING?

There are explanations through the differences in verses throughout the Bible, for example, the genealogy is different through two of the gospels. This is because of the genealogy of one was on one side of the family and the other was on the other side.

A problem occurs when everyone here asks me to sort out verses and respond, and have perfect answers immediately when I'm trying to do other stuff, than sit and press the "new posts" on LPF link as we argue back and forth.

Rather than making multiple arguments, choose one, and one verse or maybe two and let me talk about my thoughts on that.

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Old 12-12-2014, 12:28 PM #3891
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That's for you to decide for yourself Teej. Earlier to took the stance of...

Quote:
The bible can't be evidence
Logically and scientifically I believe this to be incorrect. However bias you believe it to be there is evidence there for the divinity of Christ. I understand that you don't put much value on this evidence, but to willfully ignore it entirely I do not agree with.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:13 PM #3892
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
That's for you to decide for yourself Teej. Earlier to took the stance of...



Logically and scientifically I believe this to be incorrect. However bias you believe it to be there is evidence there for the divinity of Christ. I understand that you don't put much value on this evidence, but to willfully ignore it entirely I do not agree with.
The CONTEXT is that it can't be evidence OF IT'S OWN validity.

IE: I write a book, and, in the book, I say that I never lie, and every word is true...

...and one of the truths I say is that the earth is at the center of the universe, doesn't move, and the sun goes around it.

Someone ELSE says, "that's crazy talk, there is significant evidence that the earth does move, and, is not at the center of the universe."

Someone ELSE then defends my book, saying, the book says its true! Therefore, it is!

And so on and so forth.



So if you look at the bible as a historical document the way you'd look at any other ancient tome, there are obvious problems with its veracity if taken literally. If you defend it by quoting what it says, its that contextual problem of using the bible to defend the bible.


So, the bible can't be evidence of the truth of the bible.

ironically, if you look at the ancient versions, the bible evolved, and the words were changed, stories and scenes were added and subtracted, all based upon smoothing over known issues at the time.

A lot of people look at THEIR bible, the one in their hands, and assume that it says what was say thousands of years ago...not knowing the earlier versions had different content, and we're not ONLY talking about obvious errors in transcription, etc...which do exist, and, given the hand written scribe process of the times, are not surprising...but, some of the errors change what happened, and, some are not errors at all, they are deletions of entire sections, and, additions of new sections.

The Church edited the bible...and they edited the writing used to create the bible. Their own scholars keep track of this stuff, they HAVE earlier version in their archives....its not a secret...you can read their own scholarly discussions i it.

So, if you must believe in God, and you want to follow the bible, sure, but do not try to tell others that its "the word of god, exactly as breathed" etc...because unless you speak ancient tongues (What those words started as), you have no idea what was breathed even if it was...and even then, you'd STILL need to decide WHICH disciple was actually there, and which disciple wanted to be there so copied the other disciple's version to make it look that way, but, the version differ, and, they can't BOTH be TRUE if they are different.

Vinegar or Myrrh?

How many blind beggars?


and so on.


Pasted:

The evolution of the depiction of the Baptism of Jesus exhibits the criterion of embarrassment. In the Gospel of the Hebrews, Jesus is but a man (see adoptionism) submitting to another man for the forgiveness of the "sin of ignorance" (a lesser sin, but sin nonetheless).

Matthew's description of the Baptism adds John's statement to Jesus: "I should be baptized by you", attempting to do away with the embarrassment of John baptising Jesus, implying John's seniority. Similarly, it resolves the embarrassment of Jesus undergoing baptism "for the forgiveness of sin", the purpose of John's baptising in Mark, by omitting this phrase from John's proclamations.

The Gospel of Luke says only that Jesus was baptized, without explicitly asserting that John performed the baptism. The Gospel of John goes further and simply omits the whole story of the Baptism. This might show a progression of the Evangelists attempting to explain, and then suppress, a story that was seen as embarrassing to the early church.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28]


Sitz im Leben

The sayings and actions of the historical Jesus must reflect the Sitz im Leben or the concrete social, political, economic, agricultural, and religious conditions of ancient Palestine, while sayings and actions of Jesus that reflect social, political, economic, agricultural, or religious conditions that existed only outside Palestine or only after the death of Jesus are to be considered inauthentic.[20][21][23][24][25][26][27][28][32]

Tendencies of the developing tradition

It is important that scholars research the earliest testimonies. To do this, they need to figure out the earliest gospel and the earliest parts of the gospels. Ideally, this material would come from eyewitnesses, but that is not always possible.

The writings of the Church Fathers are helpful in this regard. They wrote that the Hebrew Gospel was the first written while the Gospel of John was later. Also, because certain "laws" govern the transmission of tradition during the oral period, we can, by understanding these "laws", determine which tradition is early and which is late.[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29]


IE: CHURCH Scholars wrestle with this stuff and write papers on it.



So, things such as the above are part of the evidence I consider when trying to weigh the validity of a point.

Its not a knee jerk reaction.


So, I think most of us will "Agree to Disagree" on most of this stuff, but, I do enjoy discussing it.


If you want to focus on ID or creationism, that's OK, as, to me, that's a major threat to our future.

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Old 12-12-2014, 01:55 PM #3893
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Teej

Since you seem to enjoy writing these long posts, as evidence they get longer with your edits, I personally would like it if you would post references to the Biblical criticisms you are talking about. Some of them I have not heard of and would like to read about.
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Old 12-12-2014, 03:07 PM #3894
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Quote:
The bible can't be evidence
Logically and scientifically I believe this to be incorrect.
And what do you think about the thousands of various religious texts that contradict your own? Why does yours have more validity than the others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
yeah what a sacrifice, so much so that it only lasted 3 days.
Yes. Jesus lives for eternity, so a sacrifice of 3 days is 3/∞% of his life.

In other words, his sacrifice was mathematically zero in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yes eye witness accounts can be "God breathed."
Why isn't the same evidence available for me? Why doesn't God reveal himself to me?

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
not believing in God gets a lot of people out of following his rules.
God does an OBJECTIVELY piss-poor job at communicating what his rules are.

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The reason that's okay, is because these were types and shadows of Christ to come. When he died on the cross, all the ceremonial laws ended.
Then why do you still believe homoѕexuality is a sin?

And why do you believe a blood sacrifice should change what rules you should follow? Were they not rules for a reason?
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Last edited by Cyparagon; 12-12-2014 at 03:09 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-12-2014, 05:32 PM #3895
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Teej

Since you seem to enjoy writing these long posts, as evidence they get longer with your edits, I personally would like it if you would post references to the Biblical criticisms you are talking about. Some of them I have not heard of and would like to read about.
When I'm back on a computer I'll link the numbered refs for you.

I'm in the field for a while, so, no long posts from the phone.


I did give a link to some of this in an earlier post...when the editing issues were first brought up.

You could start there.

Let me know what you think.

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Old 12-12-2014, 06:02 PM #3896
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And what do you think about the thousands of various religious texts that contradict your own? Why does yours have more validity than the others?



Yes. Jesus lives for eternity, so a sacrifice of 3 days is 3/∞% of his life.

In other words, his sacrifice was mathematically zero in the grand scheme of things.



Why isn't the same evidence available for me? Why doesn't God reveal himself to me?



God does an OBJECTIVELY piss-poor job at communicating what his rules are.



Then why do you still believe homoѕexuality is a sin?

And why do you believe a blood sacrifice should change what rules you should follow? Were they not rules for a reason?
Believe it or not, the Bible says homes*xuality is a sin after Jesus even died. No he does a fine job saying what's right and wrong. He has his ten commandments. Although being a Christian is not about works, it pleases him when you try not to sin.

He doesn't reveal himself to you all the time or at all, because it's called faith. If you were certain, there would be no point in having to trust him, because you'd already know.
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:41 PM #3897
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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He doesn't reveal himself to you all the time or at all, because it's called faith.
Why doesn't he reveal himself to any other of the ~4-5 billion people who don't believe in him? Are they to have faith even without ever knowing about him?



Quote:
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If you were certain, there would be no point in having to trust him, because you'd already know.
Apply that statement to someone else. Think about how ridiculous, and full of circular logic it is.
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Old 12-12-2014, 07:37 PM #3898
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Believe it or not, the Bible says homes*xuality is a sin after Jesus even died. No he does a fine job saying what's right and wrong. He has his ten commandments. Although being a Christian is not about works, it pleases him when you try not to sin.

He doesn't reveal himself to you all the time or at all, because it's called faith. If you were certain, there would be no point in having to trust him, because you'd already know.
OK, Just pick the parts you like from what god said...and ignore the other parts as you don't feel they count anymore?

That way, you can say, OK, god said to not to mix meat and dairy....but you feel its OK to eat a cheeseburger, because what god said along time ago, you feel, now doesn't have relevance, and, went from a sin, to OK?


So, you feel that you're not sinning if you eat a cheeseburger, because that stuff was written thousands of years ago, and, stuff some from a long time ago is not relevant anymore?
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Old 12-12-2014, 07:43 PM #3899
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Teej

Since you seem to enjoy writing these long posts, as evidence they get longer with your edits, I personally would like it if you would post references to the Biblical criticisms you are talking about. Some of them I have not heard of and would like to read about.


Notes

1 Harper's Bible Dictionary, 1985
2 Fogarty, page 40.
3 Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, 1943.
4 Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article III, section 110
5 Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745–1812) published several editions of the New Testament. In his 1796 edition, he established fifteen critical rules, including a variant of Bengel's rule, Lectio difficilior potior, "the hardest reading is best." Another was Lectio brevior praeferenda, "the shorter reading is best," based on the idea that scribes were more likely to add than to delete. "Critical Rules of Johann Albrecht Bengel". Bible-researcher.com. Archived from the original on 13 February 2010. Retrieved 2010-03-16.
6 David J. A. Clines, "Methods in Old Testament Study", section Textual Criticism, in On the Way to the Postmodern: Old Testament Essays 1967–1998, Volume 1 (JSOTSup, 292; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998), pp. 23–45.
7 Antony F. Campbell, SJ, "Preparatory Issues in Approaching Biblical Texts", in The Hebrew Bible in Modern Study, p.6. Campbell renames source criticism as "origin criticism".
8 Bibledudes.com
9 Yair Hoffman, review of Marvin A. Sweeney and Ehud Ben Zvi (eds.), The Changing Face of Form-Criticism for the Twenty-First Century, 2003
10 Religious Studies Department, Santa Clara University.
11 Redaction Criticism.
12 Norman K. Gottwald, "Social Matrix and Canonical Shape", Theology Today, October 1985.
13 M.D. Morrison, "Rhetorical Criticism of the Hebrew Bible"
14 Johannes C. De Klerk, "Situating biblical narrative studies in literary theory and literary approaches", Religion & Theology 4/3 (1997).
15 Christopher Heard, "Narrative Criticism and the Hebrew Scriptures: A Review and Assessment", Restoration Quarterly, Vol. 38/No.1 (1996)
16 Frank S. Frick, Response: Reconstructing Israel's Ancient World, SBL[dead link]
17 David L. Barr, review of A. K. M. Adam (ed.), Handbook of Postmodern Biblical Interpretation, 2000
18 David J. A. Clines, "The Pyramid and the Net", On the Way to the Postmodern: Old Testament Essays 1967–1998, Volume 1 (JSOTSup, 292; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998).
19 Catherine M. Murphy, The Historical Jesus For Dummies, For Dummies Pub., 2007. p 14 Google Link
20 Catherine M. Murphy, The Historical Jesus For Dummies, For Dummies Pub., 2007. p 14, 61-77
21 John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, Yale University Press, 2009.
22 Maureen W. Yeung, Faith in Jesus and Paul: a comparison, Volume 147, Mohr Siebeck Pub, 2002. pp 54-56
23 Blue Butler Education, Historical Study of Jesus of Nazareth: An Introduction
24 N. S. Gill, Discussion of the Historical Jesus
25 Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, Oxford, 1999. pp 90–91.
26 John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Doubleday, 1991. v. 1, pp 174–175, 317
27 Stanley E. Porter, The Criteria for Authenticity in Historical-Jesus Research: Previous Discussion and New Proposals (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2000).
28 Gerd Thiessen & Dagmar Winter, The Quest for the Plausible Jesus: The Question of Criteria (Westminster: John Knox Press, 2002).
28 James R. Edwards, The Hebrew Gospel & the Development of the Synoptic Tradition, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co, 2009. pp 1-118
30 Catherine M. Murphy, The Historical Jesus For Dummies, For Dummies Pub., 2007. p 14
31 James R. Edwards, The Hebrew Gospel & the Development of the Synoptic Tradition, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co, 2009. pp 127-128
32 Maureen W. Yeung, Faith in Jesus and Paul: A Comparison, Volume 147, Mohr Siebeck Pub, 2002. p 55
[1]
[2]

OK, I tried. The formatting is a bit messed up, and its not clickable...but, they should be searchable at least with google, etc.

Again, these (relevant ones at least) were cited in what I was posting earlier. The numbers are arranged to allow cross referencing.

They are not to prove god exists, or not, they are discussing the ways the bible was written, and, over what time periods, and, by which sources. IE: Research into how we got the bible, by biblical scholars/people who study the bible. (IE: Not written by atheists).


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Old 12-12-2014, 08:00 PM #3900
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Just a show of hands, who here actually believes the earth is a few thousand years old and not billions of years old?

Just post "Old" or "Young" if you don't want to take the time for a long post....with old being you agree with geology and astrophysics, etc...(Billions of years old)

..and young meaning you think less than 10,000 years or so, as claimed by the creationists.


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Old 12-12-2014, 08:02 PM #3901
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Old .
__________________
I’m okay, No I’m not
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I’m still breathing
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But it’s all the same
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‘Cause all your faces humiliate me
And I really don’t want to give up but I feel like
I gave up a long time ago
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:03 PM #3902
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

OLD

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Old 12-12-2014, 08:09 PM #3903
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Old.

Of course here's the kicker, there are those that will claim the earth was made by god already OLD.

Since some circular logic keeps coming up, and it gave me a laugh on a dreary friday afternoon at the office...


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Old 12-12-2014, 08:21 PM #3904
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

Genius, but, he makes the apple tree confer knowledge instead of merely demonstrating gravity (Creationists actually say we don't know that gravity is real either...).

So, they bite the apple, and the only thing they learn is not that there's gravity, but to stick a prickly fig leaf (They hurt if you did that in real life btw...) over their (newly) private parts...because the only two people on the earth at that point, for some reason, would feel shame at seeing their own spouse naked. (Shame = Knowledge, because knowledge is bad)


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