Old 12-11-2014, 04:48 PM #3857
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I just said, God would be supernatural. But unless I see this is going anywhere, I'm dropping the subject because I'm wasting my time.
How will you learn about anything if you run away when the ideas scare you?


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Old 12-11-2014, 05:30 PM #3858
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
su·per·sti·tion

ˌso͞opərˈstiSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: superstition

excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.
"he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition"
synonyms: unfounded belief, credulity, fallacy, delusion, illusion; More


So, the DEFINITION of superstition includes belief in supernatural beings....so, your belief in god is a SUPERSTITION.


The definition of superstition posted there includes "excessive" belief in the supernatural, so believe alone doesn't qualify it as superstition.
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:30 PM #3859
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I just said, God would be supernatural. But unless I see this is going anywhere, I'm dropping the subject because I'm wasting my time.
One post, throwing your own approach back at you, and you run away?

Come on... just one example of the supernatural? Show me a ghost, a vampire, a zombie, santa or the easter bunny! Something that can be at least detected, of not seen, or felt.

If you can't... how do you know it exists?

How is it more of a leap to admit that we simply don't have a complete understanding of the universe yet, and may never have it, than it is to say "because god" and stop looking for answers?
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:52 PM #3860
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The definition of superstition posted there includes "excessive" belief in the supernatural, so believe alone doesn't qualify it as superstition.
In the dictionary EXAMPLE, it says belief in ghosts, not excessive belief in ghosts, etc.

I suppose its a question of how excessive a belief in something that doesn't exist has to be to count as excessive?

So, lets say a person believes that there are ghosts, as in the example...

And, based upon this belief, goes to meetings with other people who believe in ghosts, and they tell ghost stories, etc....is that an excessive belief in ghosts?

If you asked a co-worker to come to your house for dinner, and he said he would, but he thinks that your house might be haunted, is that excessive?

If a person says they believe that he needs to knock on wood for good luck, is that a superstition?




BTW - Here is the Merriam Webster Definition:

su·per·sti·tion
noun \ˌsü-pər-ˈsti-shən\

: a belief or way of behaving that is based on fear of the unknown and faith in magic or luck : a belief that certain events or things will bring good or bad luck


Full Definition of SUPERSTITION

1
a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition

2
: a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary



Nothing about needing to be "excessive" in that dictionary.


So, anyway....when Missionaries would see natives doing their primitive rites, etc, casting spells, etc...they referred to them as superstitious.

It seems to fit.


Would you say that natives who perform rites to bring them good luck, etc, are superstitious?

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Old 12-11-2014, 06:06 PM #3861
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Simply put.

I believe in a supernatural god, I believe god exists, and I do not feel that is it based on ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, a false conception of causation, or an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition.

I believe these are reasonable beliefs and outside of the label of superstition.
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Old 12-11-2014, 06:22 PM #3862
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Simply put.

I believe in a supernatural god, I believe god exists, and I do not feel that is it based on ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, a false conception of causation, or an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition.

I believe these are reasonable beliefs and outside of the label of superstition.

So, if a person believes that his supernatural belief is rational, therefore it is.

OK.

My missionary friends tell me that the natives feel the same way about the rites and rituals they observe...they believe them, and, even after accepting Jesus, they still ALSO believe in the various other spirits, and, follow the same rites and rituals.

My mother believed that the knocking on wood chased away evil spirits, and even if I told her to knock it off and stop doing that, she said that she had to do it because of the spirits, and, if I didn't like it, to move out.

As most 5 year olds have a hard time making it out there....I decided to allow her to continue with her belief system.

After my mother died, my wife would knock on wood to scare away my mother's spirit.

So, none of them would be superstitious then, as all of them felt that their beliefs in supernatural things were rational.



I think if superstition did not have a negative connotation, and was simply another way to say a belief in the supernatural (Which essentially is all it is)...it would not be a concern to be labeled as superstitious.

A person who is "cursed" by a voo doo/medicine man/witch doctor, etc...and actually dies, could certainly be said to believe in it. As that person believes that the supernatural exists, and is 100% convinced of it, their life experiences and research into this must be considered conclusive.

This means that, if this person is not superstitious, as they are 100% certain that their belief is rational, that witch doctors therefore have actual power that is not natural, but supernatural.

If you were sick, you would therefore go to a witch doctor, as, their supernatural powers are real.

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Old 12-11-2014, 06:38 PM #3863
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
How will you learn about anything if you run away when the ideas scare you?
The reason I don't put God up with ghost stories, is because there is historical proof of who Bibles characters were, at least part of them. The Bible is a document just like another when it comes to our worlds past.
I myself have seen enough evidence of God, to believe in him.
The reason I don't believe in lies like Islam is because the only reason Islam is around was because a guy said he was a prophet because he had a mole on his back. Jesus actually did miracles (although you may say he didn't) where as Mohamed raided towns trying to convert people and killing many, and threatening people with death.
That's why I chose not to believe in something like Islam and many other religion have problems too. For example, Mormons. They've got their roots by a guy named Joseph Smith, a moron w
ho said he uncovered tablets, which he most likely placed their himself, and translated to old English which wasn't even used at the time. He said he was a prophet of God who was told to start a new church in the new world.........and the crap talk goes on.
Jesus on the other hand said he was God, and had some miracles for proof to back it up. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure their are no miracles that "Allah" has done.

God didn't create evil. He gave the creatures he created a free will to do as they please. But since we have a free will that also gave us a chance to start sinning.
God's not being threatened by Satan. Who told you that? God created Satan and the problem is, Satan was once an of God, but was selfish and wanted to be God. That's when God cast him out of his domain.

Your coming from a viewpoint of criticism, rather than listening, not that it is bad to criticize, but at least I'm reading and looking into what your saying.

To talk about what your saying about the Indians and their spirit stuff, yes those spirits can be real. They're satans follower angels who leach onto any doubt or superstition you have.
No I don't think that just because God gave us rule over the animals that we should abuse them.

Proverbs 12:10-Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

God is not cruel to animals either.
Psalm 145:9-The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.

Here it says God was around before the ages even began.
Titus 1:2-In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

Here God says he was before anythin
g-meaning matter, time, etc.
Revelation 22:13-I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Colossians 1:16-For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

John 8:24-I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you
believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

It also says he knew what he was doing when he made the universe.
Proverbs 3:19-The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens;

I really like concordances.

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Old 12-11-2014, 06:40 PM #3864
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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So, if a person believes that his supernatural belief is rational, therefore it is.
I don't know if you are making this up as you go or what, that's not where my train of though was leading to, but to answer it.

In the same way that belief in a supernatural god alone doesn't qualify as it as superstition, neither doesn't belief alone qualify it as rational.
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Old 12-11-2014, 06:58 PM #3865
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The reason I don't put God up with ghost stories, is because there is historical proof of who Bibles characters were, at least part of them. The Bible is a document just like another when it comes to our worlds past.


I myself have seen enough evidence of God, to believe in him.


The reason I don't believe in lies like Islam is because the only reason Islam is around was because a guy said he was a prophet because he had a mole on his back. Jesus actually did miracles (although you may say he didn't) where as Mohamed raided towns trying to convert people and killing many, and threatening people with death.

That's why I chose not to believe in something like Islam and many other religion have problems too. For example, Mormons. They've got their roots by a guy named Joseph Smith, a moron who said he uncovered tablets, which he most likely placed their himself, and translated to old English which wasn't even used at the time. He said he was a prophet of God who was told to start a new church in the new world.........and the crap talk goes on.
Jesus on the other hand said he was God, and had some miracles for proof to back it up. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure their are no miracles that "Allah" has done.

God didn't create evil. He gave the creatures he created a free will to do as they please. But since we have a free will that also gave us a chance to start sinning.

God's not being threatened by Satan. Who told you that? God created Satan and the problem is, Satan was once an of God, but was selfish and wanted to be God. That's when God cast him out of his domain.

Your coming from a viewpoint of criticism, rather than listening, not that it is bad to criticize, but at least I'm reading and looking into what your saying.

To talk about what your saying about the Indians and their spirit stuff, yes those spirits can be real. They're satans follower angels who leach onto any doubt or superstition you have.

Ok, this is the best effort on your part to date to make an actual argument, and, you get kudos for that!




The problem is that there is a difference between the bible and a history book, in that the history book has authors, references, etc...and, the bible you have came from people who are biased, and, needing you to believe in their religion, and, to reject other belief systems.

Muslims consider Jesus and his teachings to be part of their religion by the way.

If god created everything, and has a plan for everything and every one, then, he created evil.

Otherwise, you are saying things can exist with god being needed to create them.

So, everyone has free will AND god has a plan for them? So, their free will is merely doing what god planned for them...?

So, god created Satan, and, not evil, but all evil comes from Satan, and all evil is because Satan then was able to have powers that allowed him to create other supernatural beings?

What exactly is Armageddon about?

Is it not a battle between good and evil?

Why is there a need for a battle unless god wants there to be evil?


He could have slew Satan when he went bad. Instead of "casting him out of his domain", instead of bashing an innocent baby's head against a rock, could he have just used an innocent baby to beat Satan to death or something?

Why let evil exist, after you create it, unless you WANTED it to exist?


IE: According to the bible, god created everything and every one...and, that includes Satan, and evil.

Armageddon involves Jesis returning to earth...and, then the cast of evil immortal beings that are never mentioned as being created per se, except Satan, includes

the AntiChrist (A decent sounding weapon to use against a Christ) also known as "The Beast" (A decent sounding name for a professional wrestler?)


The False Prophet (someone pretending to be Jesus returning to earth...)

Gog

Magog


Pasted from Wiki:

Jesus will return to earth and defeat the Antichrist (the "beast"), the False Prophet and Satan the Devil in the Battle of Armageddon. Then Satan will be put into the "bottomless pit" or abyss for 1,000 years, known as the Millennium. After being released from the abyss, Satan will gather Gog and Magog from the four corners of the earth.
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:12 PM #3866
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If he slew Satan he would have had to kill us too, because he is perfect and must kill all evil at once. If he doesn't, he's biased.
He had created us and we turned bad.
Satan was once a good

The problem is when we think we can out think God. We don't always have an explanation because he hasn't give us one yet.

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Old 12-11-2014, 07:48 PM #3867
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
If he slew Satan he would have had to kill us too, because he is perfect and must kill all evil at once. If he doesn't, he's biased.
He had created us and we turned bad.
Satan was once a good

The problem is when we think we can out think God. We don't always have an explanation because he hasn't give us one yet.
Wait, no one who is evil, say, Hitler, is dead?

ALL evil is still alive, because, um, there would be bias?

WHEN in the bible did God EVER NOT kill those opposed to him if he wanted to? Jesus was Jewish, the Jews were the chosen people...Jesus died Jewish, he was a rabbi...so, why are his followers not JEWISH?

God CHOSE the jews. He had the jews kicking the bronze age butts like a horde of Conan the Barbarians...they killed EVERY FRICKEN opponent they wanted to...even the babies of the opponents, etc. So, they won (According to the BIBLE) because God was on THEIR SIDE.

BIAS?! How much MORE Biased COULD HE HAVE BEEN?






BTW - He is not supposed to KILL Satan, and his evil hordes, merely give them a 1,000 year time-out.



On the other hand, lets say, for the moment, that I am Satan.

(Hi! )


OK, I KNOW god, I mean, we used to hang out in heaven and all....and, I KNOW if he really IS all powerful and all knowing and is in all places at the same time, etc.

Why would I attack GOD unless I thought I might WIN?

I have free will (Obviously), so, it would be my idea to do it...but who would attack an enemy that is, by definition, unbeatable?


Ostensibly, I am evil, and want the world to be evil....but, there's GOD.

So, if god is truly GOOD, why does he let me exist at all, and, why would I attack him and not just be thankful he's letting me exist for whatever warped reason?


If I KNOW I can't win, what's the POINT? I get thrown into where it is I'm supposed to already BE...for 1,000 years....but, its where I already LIVE (HELL), so, if I'm being punished for all eternity...by being in hell, and, I'm already IN hell, but my punishment for LOSING is to go back to hell...

Its like saying a kid who didn't do his homework because he's playing video games instead, is punished by being sent to his room where he plays video games.

So, tell me young Jedi, why Satan who knows he can't win, would attack GOD for possession of the earth?

And, why does it matter WHEN? I mean, why not NOW? Ever?



As an aside, how many immortal beings ARE there anyway?

We have god (3 versions all in one, so we'll count as one), a LOT of angels, seemingly endless supplies of demons....the Devil ( ) and an antichrist, those guys who sound like they're from Lord of the Rings, Saints, etc.

I think we're still well ahead of the Greeks and Romans, etc....we have more now than they did then.

?


To be clear, If you actually convince me there's a god, and angels, and demons and fairies and ghosts, and so forth, I will believe.

I don't hear you being open minded about there not being all of those supernatural creatures though.


All (ALL) of your reasons for believing do not actually prove anything, because they all use the same essential source, without external input. They do not use verifiable facts, and ALL of the arguments boil down to either "because I believe it" or, "well, you can't prove its not the case".

Those are not logical arguments, and, if there are no logical arguments, instead of fake arguments such as precambrian explosions and Noah DID make a bathyscaphe and go down miles under the ocean to collect creatures that live in boiling hot sulfur vents, etc...because, um, that's what he would have had to do...and, rain would have to drown whales...and, fish...and sea turtles....etc....then how to PROVE a point, if there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF ITS TRUTH? The bible can't be evidence, as its from a biased source (The religion industry/Supernatural Interventionist Industry). YOU believing it, because you chose to, is not evidence. Evidence would be, at a minimum, a logical argument (truly logical, not Jesuit, etc...) that was compelling enough to at least take under consideration.

IE: ALL I hear/see so far, is evasive. NOTHING is truly persuasive in anyway shape or form.


Its, for me, like getting a chain mail that says....do this and then pass to 10 people or all these bad things will happen to you....oh, and anyone who says otherwise is a supernatural creature from hell, and if you listen to them, they will steal your soul...and that the letter is from someone who can only tell the truth, so, its got to be true...and if anyone says its not, its demons again and all that...so you better believe it OR ELSE!

- God




So, I am Satan, God created me, and, I knew God personally....and, somehow, decided I was going to be A GOD!

So, apparently, I had the power to BE a God, as, instead of merely explaining that I could not, I was cast out of the domain...and, GIVEN the power to create an endless supply of OTHER supernatural creatures to do my bidding....which, frankly, DOES sound at least God-LIKE.

I was thinking, OK, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and knows everything every one is doing and will do, and being all powerful, can defeat anyone, even if he DIDN'T know exactly what they were going to do and when. (Omniscient entities can be said to have the ultimate intelligence on their enemies).

That sounds like an easy win for me...how could I NOT win against an adversary that is by definition unbeatable and knows my every move before I do?

What the HELL, I'll find a false prophet...because, um, I'm not sure why I need a mere mortal...but, it prophesied, so, obviously, its my pre-ordained destiny, and those Lords of the Ring sounding guys, who, depending on what version of which bible I use, might be regions in the middle east and not people or demons...because the translators were not really familiar with the terms and guessed, but, whatever or whoever they are according to the prophesies, I need them too for some reason...and the antichrist/beast thing...who I am not sure where to find except in a Monty Python movie IIRC, no real back story on that critter?

And then, all the people on earth will rally behind me, because, obviously, all the humans will decide that a fallen angel SHOULD beat the all powerful and all knowing forces of GOD....and rally to my cause so that their lives will be miserable....despite that there's already a prophesy that they will lose.

So, sure, a perfectly rational plan.

Satan works in mysterious ways.

And is another immortal being that god had to cast out and not kill...apparently in some sort of cyclic pattern?


I think I need therapy, what was I THINKING!

Of COURSE the bible makes sense.



I have to confess, I go to church and raised my kids with religion, BECAUSE I don't think most are ready to not have it...and, if, as adults, they decide its silly, fine...its up to them to judge what's out there and make that choice. It would KILL my parents if I left the faith, so, after they're dead, I'll probably out myself. One left to go...and, I'm not exactly hoping it goes fast, as, I'd rather my dad stick around.

The creationist stuff, the earth is younger than some of its trees, there was a 500 yr old man who built a bathyscaphe a few thousand years ago, we had starlight before the light from the stars could reach the earth...the earth doesn't rotate, the sun goes around it, that stuff...is where I say enough is enough...children and our future are harmed by this drivel.

This whole internet thing is just how I REALLY feel. It feels good to be honest. So, I type posts here trying to explain how the bible doesn't make sense, there is too much evidence that the earth actually rotates, and that the sun is more centered in our solar system, and that if you create light before the things that emit the light, and that while some rock-like materials can form quickly, most rocks do not form as quickly as needed to explain the flood timing, and, the evidence 100% contradicts the creationist view point, and on and on....

and then leave to get the this year's xmas tree....because I hate fake trees....and Christmas is my favorite holiday.


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Old 12-12-2014, 12:36 AM #3868
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I love how god, supposedly not a respecter of persons, has a "chosen people", because that totally makes sense. he is omnihypocritical too, it seems.

reading some of the believer's statements makes me fear I'll have an aneurysm in my brain. read your statements aloud to yourself a few times. if they still sound reasonable, i fear you are hopeless. it's not suprising, it's what I run up against almost every time I converse with presuppositional apologists.

I have to admire the system of control it has on the minds of so many. it's got to be the best marketing job ever. like other marketing, it makes you feel incomplete without it. you can not distinguish yourself from it, and thus take criticism of it personally. this evokes an emotional response, largely shutting down reasoning abilities in favor of defending against what you see as an attack against the very core of your being. if you admit you may be wrong, it means you would not know who you are any longer, and would have to actually think for yourself instead of being told what to think. that's way too much effort for most it seems. religion is so powerful that it convinces it's victims to fight to defend it, often to the death. a most elegant tactic unfortunately. it really makes me sad, and have little hope for humanity's collective future

to quote guy ritchie's film, revolver, "eventually, when the opponent is challenged or questioned, (god) it means the victim's investment, and thus his intelligence is questioned. no one can accept that, not even to themselves"

the film is about ego, but it can apply to god as well. I recommend the film highly

I speak from experience. I felt all this, and had to work through it. that's the thing about pusuing truth, sometimes it goes into thick thorny vines. chasing it can be painful and is not for the faint of heart

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Psalm 145:9-The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.
yeah, he was so loving and merciful to all, including innocent animals, that he drown them all
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:48 AM #3869
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Satan doesn't attack God. He attacks us, because by attacking us, he is harming Gods creation, and since he knows he can't hurt God, he hurts what God loves.

Also, don't get the old and new testament confused. Jesus told his disciples, to spread the word for in Judea, then to the ends of the earth.
It's the same kind of things at the sacrifices. We don't sacrifice anymore because after Jesus came he ended all the rituals because he was the sacrifice.
He chose his people because he needed a place to start, first by destroying the cities around that were pagan. They did wrong, that's why he killed them. He gave them plenty of mercy. Then he said enough was enough.

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Old 12-12-2014, 12:52 AM #3870
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
It's the same kind of things at the sacrifices. We don't sacrifice anymore because after Jesus came he ended all the rituals because he was the sacrifice.
yeah what a sacrifice, so much so that it only lasted 3 days. god sure loves his blood and burnt flesh. wonder what he does/did with it all.

your logic train resembles those found under christmas trees. round and round

example:

Q. how do you know god is real?

A. It says so in the bible

Q. how do you know the bible is telling the truth?

A. because god wrote it

if you don't see the problem, you are hopeless

I always get Jonah and the whale confused with pinochio
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:26 AM #3871
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What your referring to is called circle talk and I think you have a point. I may have done that a bit. But imho, there too much proof of God. I want to stop this conversation but I keep having to refute (the best I can) your arguments.

LET ME BE STRAIGHT. I AM NO EXPERT ON THEOLOGY. I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:34 AM #3872
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

good to hear. keep trying, and keep that brain working. I got to the place I am today on a path that started exactly that way, trying to prove god to others. eventually this evolved into just trying to prove him to myself, which I was unable to do. I din't become an atheist overnight, satan had to whittle away with those pesky facts for quite some time. guess my "shield of faith" was not up to snuff

Here's a joke:

Why do atheists mock god?

because lord satan commands it

JUST KIDDING, we dont believe in him either
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