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Old 12-11-2014, 01:58 AM #3841
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Just a question.

Do you guys think Genesis 1 in the Bible is bull?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Probably just a bunch of bull, right?


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Old 12-11-2014, 02:56 AM #3842
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@Teej, @paul1598419

Ok, so no reverse entropy. An interesting theory. Makes sense in terms of the formation of stars and planets. Interesting to see the possibility that living organisms are also formed by such forces.

@USAbro
What is God? Is it metaphor or is the definition of God something that could make that statement True?

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Old 12-11-2014, 02:57 AM #3843
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
@Teej, @paul1598419

Ok, so no reverse entropy. An interesting theory. Makes sense in terms of the formation of stars and planets. Interesting to see the possibility that living organisms are also formed by such forces.

@USAbro
What is God? Is it metaphor or is the definition of God something that could make that statement True?

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Not a metaphor. Yes the Bibles definition of God would make the statement true.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:02 AM #3844
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Just a question.

Do you guys think Genesis 1 in the Bible is bull?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Probably just a bunch of bull, right?
Why bait people if you are a believer?

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Old 12-11-2014, 03:09 AM #3845
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
Why bait people if you are a believer?

~ LB
I'm not baiting people as if they say it is bull, I'm not going to retaliate. I just want an answer to what they think and am provoking their mind to think about it.
Believe me, Teej knows plenty well my beliefs.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:29 AM #3846
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I'm not baiting people as if they say it is bull, I'm not going to retaliate. I just want an answer to what they think and am provoking their mind to think about it.
Lol.

Have you noticed the last few pages?
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:44 AM #3847
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Do you guys think Genesis 1 in the Bible is bull?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Yes.

If we assume "heavens" is the the universe, science has proven earth and the universe were not created at the same time, but roughly 7 billion years apart.

If I may quote the skeptics annotated bible:

(1:3) Let there be light
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

(1:11) Let the earth bring forth grass
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes

(1:16a) God made the two great lights.
"The greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light; it only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

(1:16b) He made the stars also.
God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes 300 ***tillion stars.

(1:17) To give light upon the earth.
Then why is only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than a few thousand stars are visible with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Were they all created "to give light upon the earth"?

(1:26) Let them have dominion.
God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. This couldn't be true, of course, since millions of other species existed for millions of years before humans existed. But this verse is used by fundamentalist Christians to justify their mistreatment of other species and disregard for the environment. After all, they believe that God created the other species just for them, so they can do whatever they please with them.

And that's just a few of the problems from the very first genesis chapter. There are 49 more in genesis alone, and they're a lot worse than the first.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:58 AM #3848
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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But this verse is used by fundamentalist Christians to justify their mistreatment of other species and disregard for the environment. After all, they believe that God created the other species just for them, so they can do whatever they please with them.
this is it right here. rep If I can. I am greatly concerned that the vast majority of the planet's inhabitants believe in an apocalypse. with so many adherents, it will surely come to pass, as self fulfilled prophecy, with just a dash of manifest destiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

since Jesus is coming to save the faithful, it doesn't matter what happens to the planet. it's going to be destroyed anyway, plus, god did make it all for us, giving us dominion over it.

to me, your philosophy is akin to going all in pre flop, with a 7 and a 2 off-suit (texas hold 'em)

I plead for the believer who reads this to consider my suggestion: take good care of the Earth, just in case.

I hear christians reason that it's good to believe in god "just in case" hell is real, so you don't go there. I beg you to take care of the planet "just in case" it's the only one we get.

What does a parent do when they wonder about how their child will take care of an expensive gift they are considering giving to the child? do they not look at the way the child treats his/her current possesions? why would god want to gift humans with a heaven greater than this earth if we have made such a muck of this place? such an action would be to reward bad behavior

Are you willing to stake my children's future (if I had any) on your belief? are you so certain the bible is true, you are willing to bet not just your own future, but the future of all mankind on it? and you call that being humble?

Luckily for you, you'll be dead awaiting heaven and will not feel the wrath of a generatoin inheriting the trash heap you left behind. a good thing too, because if you were alive, they'd likely want your head. this is a something all mankind bears responsibility for
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:43 AM #3849
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Why do some people take something from the bronze age as a source of truth? Is there any other example of something from the bronze age that we take as truth? People from that time on earth had to use superstition as the reasons for so many things that are now known to be elementary and not up for debate. I don't understand it, but it is not for me to argue about such matters.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:21 AM #3850
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Not a metaphor. Yes the Bibles definition of God would make the statement true.
OK, good, could you show me the Bibles' definition of God? I seem to have missed that part.

I did see a lot of references to who God might be, snippets of this aspect, or that aspect, but, when added together, seem to not be possible to describe the same entity, as they conflict each other.



So, could you go to the definition section you're referring to, and paste it below, it would be quite helpful.

Thanks!




-----------------------------------

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Originally Posted by paul1598419 View Post
Why do some people take something from the bronze age as a source of truth? Is there any other example of something from the bronze age that we take as truth? People from that time on earth had to use superstition as the reasons for so many things that are now known to be elementary and not up for debate. I don't understand it, but it is not for me to argue about such matters.
Frankly, I think religion has become sort of inherited....as the vast majority of people simply believe whatever their parents did. So, with that line of inherited beliefs, it does tend to make people preserve superstitions.

My mother would "knock on wood to drive away evil spirits", toss salt over her shoulder, freak if she broke a mirror, worry about Friday the 13th's, and a bunch of other superstitious nonsense.

I asked her why, and she would typically just say that's what HER mother did. Her mother had died before I was old enough to ask a question like that....but, I'm willing to bet there's a pattern there, based upon other people's stories about why THEY do superstitious things like that. IE: If your parents followed superstitions, you probably will too.


The other reason to propagate Bronze Age superstitions is one of simple control. Humans tend to count on "Positive Thoughts" as a way to convince themselves that things will "be OK".

ANYTHING that relieves stress and anxiety is pretty much a lock. So, if you are hiding from barbarians pillaging your village, or going into a stressful meeting, or in a foxhole under bombardment, you are under stress, and, want to believe you'll be OK (and loved one's, etc)...to help survive it. So, "I hope I'll be OK" is more or less what we pray for most of the time. Its something to do that relives stress, much as pacing, smoking, fidgeting, etc.

It has the added bonus if you believe that it might be heard and answered...as in, one of the gods/supernatural spirits, etc, might hear you and have pity...adding to the odds that you'd "be ok".


So, sure, there are things that pre-date the iron age that people still do, and have no idea why anymore.


My mother was a chemist, not an illiterate villager in the Bronze Age, or a tribeswoman who believed all things had spirits, such as trees....and, yet, she knocked on wood to drive away those evil spirits that hide in wood.







As a side note/observation - If you see a line of sheep going along the path, and you put your leg out so a sheep has to jump over your leg, you can then pull your leg back, and let the line of sheep continue past you...and EVERY DANG one of them jumps when they reach that spot, even though your leg is no longer there....because they saw the sheep in front of them jump, so they do too.




Food for thought.

Last edited by Teej; 12-11-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:59 PM #3851
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
OK, good, could you show me the Bibles' definition of God? I seem to have missed that part.

I did see a lot of references to who God might be, snippets of this aspect, or that aspect, but, when added together, seem to not be possible to describe the same entity, as they conflict each other.



So, could you go to the definition section you're referring to, and paste it below, it would be quite helpful.

Thanks!





-----------------------------------



Frankly, I think religion has become sort of inherited....as the vast majority of people simply believe whatever their parents did. So, with that line of inherited beliefs, it does tend to make people preserve superstitions.

My mother would "knock on wood to drive away evil spirits", toss salt over her shoulder, freak if she broke a mirror, worry about Friday the 13th's, and a bunch of other superstitious nonsense.

I asked her why, and she would typically just say that's what HER mother did. Her mother had died before I was old enough to ask a question like that....but, I'm willing to bet there's a pattern there, based upon other people's stories about why THEY do superstitious things like that. IE: If your parents followed superstitions, you probably will too.


The other reason to propagate Bronze Age superstitions is one of simple control. Humans tend to count on "Positive Thoughts" as a way to convince themselves that things will "be OK".

ANYTHING that relieves stress and anxiety is pretty much a lock. So, if you are hiding from barbarians pillaging your village, or going into a stressful meeting, or in a foxhole under bombardment, you are under stress, and, want to believe you'll be OK (and loved one's, etc)...to help survive it. So, "I hope I'll be OK" is more or less what we pray for most of the time. Its something to do that relives stress, much as pacing, smoking, fidgeting, etc.

It has the added bonus if you believe that it might be heard and answered...as in, one of the gods/supernatural spirits, etc, might hear you and have pity...adding to the odds that you'd "be ok".


So, sure, there are things that pre-date the iron age that people still do, and have no idea why anymore.


My mother was a chemist, not an illiterate villager in the Bronze Age, or a tribeswoman who believed all things had spirits, such as trees....and, yet, she knocked on wood to drive away those evil spirits that hide in wood.







As a side note/observation - If you see a line of sheep going along the path, and you put your leg out so a sheep has to jump over your leg, you can then pull your leg back, and let the line of sheep continue past you...and EVERY DANG one of them jumps when they reach that spot, even though your leg is no longer there....because they saw the sheep in front of them jump, so they do too.




Food for thought.
The Bibles definition says God is the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end. It also says he's all powerful. Creator.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-11-2014 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:04 PM #3852
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

One of the reasons that religion persists, aside from it being inherited, is because god, or ritual, is too often credited with positive events.

Mom knocked on wood, nothing bad happened, ergo you must knock on wood.

The reverse is also true... black cat cross your path, mom got worried, misstepped, and twisted her ankle. Black cat = bad luck.

Reality is, neither situation has anything to do with the supernatural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
As a side note/observation - If you see a line of sheep going along the path, and you put your leg out so a sheep has to jump over your leg, you can then pull your leg back, and let the line of sheep continue past you...and EVERY DANG one of them jumps when they reach that spot, even though your leg is no longer there....because they saw the sheep in front of them jump, so they do too.

Food for thought.
There is a cartoon somewhere in this thread that illustrates a similar situation.

Bunch of monkeys are in a cage, with a ladder, and bananas on top of it.

Whenever a monkey goes and gets the banana, all the monkey get punished. I forget whether they got electric shocks, or drenched with cold water, something along those lines.

A new monkey is introduced. It goes for the banana and gets attacked. This persists, with new monkeys being introduced, and older original ones being cycled out.

Eventually none of the original monkeys are left. Not one that remembers being punished for getting the banana. Yet all the newcomers are treated the same way, and beaten if they try to get the banana.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:22 PM #3853
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
One of the reasons that religion persists, aside from it being inherited, is because god, or ritual, is too often credited with positive events.

Mom knocked on wood, nothing bad happened, ergo you must knock on wood.

The reverse is also true... black cat cross your path, mom got worried, misstepped, and twisted her ankle. Black cat = bad luck.

Reality is, neither situation has anything to do with the supernatural.



There is a cartoon somewhere in this thread that illustrates a similar situation.

Bunch of monkeys are in a cage, with a ladder, and bananas on top of it.

Whenever a monkey goes and gets the banana, all the monkey get punished. I forget whether they got electric shocks, or drenched with cold water, something along those lines.

A new monkey is introduced. It goes for the banana and gets attacked. This persists, with new monkeys being introduced, and older original ones being cycled out.

Eventually none of the original monkeys are left. Not one that remembers being punished for getting the banana. Yet all the newcomers are treated the same way, and beaten if they try to get the banana.
Yes but neither of those examples has anything to do with the supernatural; maybe with superstition however.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:37 PM #3854
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Since you're a fan of one line replies...

What would be an example of something that is supernatural?
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:40 PM #3855
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Since you're a fan of one line replies...

What would be an example of something that is supernatural?
I just said, God would be supernatural. But unless I see this is going anywhere, I'm dropping the subject because I'm wasting my time.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:45 PM #3856
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yes but neither of those examples has anything to do with the supernatural; maybe with superstition however.




USABRO -

The superstitions have to do with the supernatural...so knocking on wood to chase away evil spirits means you believe in spirits....and so forth.

The SHEEP, mirrors, and so forth, illustrate WHY some people propagate superstitions, in that these things are passed along, even if the original intent was lost a long time ago.

So it ALL has to do with superstition.


The trick for them to persist is to ignore when bad things happen anyway, or, nothing bad happens anyway.

IE: The Lord Answers your prayers, except for when he works in mysterious ways, etc...


su·per·sti·tion

ˌso͞opərˈstiSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: superstition

excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.
"he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition"
synonyms: unfounded belief, credulity, fallacy, delusion, illusion; More


So, the DEFINITION of superstition includes belief in supernatural beings....so, your belief in god is a SUPERSTITION, by definition.


See the connection yet?









Now, you were going to show WHERE in the bible it gave a definition of god...and post it.

You just posted some random words, not the definition given in the bible.

Saying he's the beginning and the end, creator and all powerful...has no real meaning per se.

For example, if he's the beginning...how did HE come to be?

If he's all powerful, why might Satan defeat him?

Why did he create an evil he cannot defeat, and, if it can, how can he be all powerful?

If he's the creator, who created HIM?



And so forth.

So, find the part in the bible that gives the definition, and post it.


Last edited by Teej; 12-11-2014 at 05:26 PM.
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