Old 12-10-2014, 02:09 AM #3825
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
First we would ask the question,

"is there a difference between 'god evolution" and 'regular evolution'?"

we might follow up with,

"if there is a difference, can we test for it to know the difference?"

Occam's razor demands that if there are two working explanations of something, the one with fewer assumtions is better and preferred. God is an unnecassary element in explaining evolution, as it can be explained without him, and we've no evidence or reason to believe he might have been involved apart from our own wishful thinking

Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It can be explained in the same way that I can explain that kids get Christmas gifts from fairies that come from the moon that sneak around without us seeing.

About the whole God evolution kind of thing, God would be the explanation for the creation of the matter that started the universe.


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Old 12-10-2014, 02:13 AM #3826
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

this is one of the most intersting studies on evolution IMO. It relates to e coli evolving the ability to digest something they never could before, and aquiring the gene in two phases, disproving the popular creationist idea of "irreducible complexity"

E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

can you guys tell I love wikipedia? great library of alexandria aint got shit on wikipedia
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:29 AM #3827
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
It can be explained in the same way that I can explain that kids get Christmas gifts from fairies that come from the moon that sneak around without us seeing.

About the whole God evolution kind of thing, God would be the explanation for the creation of the matter that started the universe.
Santa can be the explanation for the creation of the matter (Probably energy) that always existed because you get energy if you have an infinite amount of space and time. (Matter and energy are different forms of the same thing, and are interchangeable between each other)

If you need there to be a "creator" of something you otherwise can't yet understand...I think Santa makes more sense if you need a creator. He's got ELVES!

No one has ever said there was a fallen ELF that Santa and us will need to fight for possession of the earth...maybe we get COAL in our stockings if he's angry at us, but SANTA never said to stone a kid to death if he talked back, etc....so, I vote for Santa.

I have a campaign slogan ready too:

JOLLY NOT JEALOUS!

VOTE SANTA FOR CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!


When you are old enough to vote, you can volunteer for the Santa party.

(We have COOKIES)





At some point in your intellectual development, you may be ready to do some critical thinking. This is not typically a long suit of teenagers, so don't feel that bad about not being there yet.


So, sure, its OK to use the information you have, as you DON'T have an observatory or lab...but, and here's the KEY to the process:

If you want to know about some new concept or idea, or even toy, or a new car....the parties SELLING them or making money off them, are not the best sources for unbiased information.


So, if trying to evaluate whether that new car you want when you get your license should be a Mustang or a Volvo or whatever....if you ONLY look at Ford or Volvo's advertisements for them, you will only get PART of the story, and, it will tend to be BIASED towards trying to convince you that THEIR CAR is the best one for you.

If you DO read an ad, KNOW that it is an ad. If its an ARTICLE, say in Motor Trend, etc...look at the ADS in the magazine. If they have an article raving about the Mustang, and ADS for the Mustang...there's a VERY good chance that the reviewers might be looking at some mustang butter on their bread.

They all deny it of course, but, if you look at them all, there are patterns. The secret is that they might tell the actual test results they got, but just spin them a bit for their butterer.

So you look at the DATA, and ignore the excuses/explanations (easier to do after your BS detector has had a chance to calibrate against the real world). There might be LESS biased sources, maybe consumer reports instead of the dealer's brochure, etc. (CU is pretty off on some issues too, but their car ratings are probably one of their more reliable resources) - And after looking at what's out there that might shed light on the car, you can make a MORE informed decision.


Same for a religion.

Don't look at the clowns who's ONLY FUNCTION is to make you buy what they are selling. If you DO look, look with an open mind, and actually test what they say against UNbiased sources. For example, as mentioned a few times...a LOT of the bunk they are spewing at you is EASILY DEbunked if you simply go to Wikipedia and see what real people say about the same thing.

So if the biased sources tell you "facts" and you find out they lied to you, and you keep checking, and its ALL lies...eventually, you realize that they are not that helpful in a search for the truth, as they pretend they are selling you "the truth", but to sell the "truth" by telling you lies to convince you to "Buy It", seems wrong to me at least.


My OWN feeling is that if I am right about something, and, want to convince someone of it, its a BAD ARGUMENT to make up things or misrepresent the facts...when ALL I should need ARE real facts that support my case.


IE: I want to prove the sun will come out tomorrow morning...and, as it REALLY and truly believe it will, I simply tell you, why I believe it will.

I can say the earth revolves around the sun, and always has since the two started doing it, the time it takes to go around is pretty consistent, and here's how fast they are going and what center they are both circling based on their two masses, and, that it all means that its going to take this long to spin around so that where we stand will have light on it tomorrow morning.

OR....

I can say that it will come out tomorrow because their is a giant wall of water magically floating in the air, and, every day at dawn, the magic curtain of water parts, as described in my new book you should buy, called "The Magic Water Curtain", and when the giant magic water curtain parts, and the light streams in, we will be bathed in the glorious light of morning!


IE: If you're right, why not just use real reasons to convince people?

Why have ALL of your "evidence" be lies?


Eventually, you will recognize this scenario on your own...but, the brain need practice thinking, to get good at it. Start questioning things. Don't be rude about it, or we'd have to stone you to death, etc...but, in your own mind, start questioning what you know, and why you know it, and if something smells funny, take it out, roll it around, sniff it, feel it, take it apart, and see what's wrong with it.


No one can (successfully) tell you WHAT to think...you need to come to your own conclusions, so you KNOW what YOU think and feel about things. So, people can tell you TO think, but, you're the one who needs to do the thinking.

You may be WRONG, but, at least YOU'RE wrong, and you're not just parroting someone else who was wrong. That way, if you find NEW information, you can CHANGE your mind about things, if that makes sense. If you don't know what thoughts are yours, and what are "mentally pasted" on your brain by someone else, w/o a BS filter to pass through first, etc...the "paster" would need to hear the new info to tell you what to think about it.


YOU want to be in control of your own thoughts, to understand why you feel the way you feel and believe the way you believe.

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Old 12-10-2014, 02:54 AM #3828
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
this is one of the most intersting studies on evolution IMO. It relates to e coli evolving the ability to digest something they never could before, and aquiring the gene in two phases, disproving the popular creationist idea of "irreducible complexity"

E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

can you guys tell I love wikipedia? great library of alexandria aint got shit on wikipedia
I had not seen that despite hearing about it.

Very nice link, thanks!


BTW - As that new marker is used to actually help tell it from another species, if this strain were to "go wild", which it could, as the genes are present...it could result false ID as the other species. IE: The gene is probably not expressing in the wild because the wee beasties are not being exposed to the agent to make it an advantage.

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Old 12-10-2014, 04:21 AM #3829
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
Small proof of evolution: MRSA(Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus).

Over many decades of antibiotics being prescibed, this nasty strain of staphylococcus began popping up.

Due to environmental pressure (widespread antibiotics) staphylococcus EVOLVED the ability to resist this poison. This is very much like the early organisms of primordial earth, who after filling the air with deadly oxygen, EVOLVED to use it instead.

A LOT of the antibiotics we take to kill bacterial infections are made by fungi/molds.

The Penicillin (Ancestor of the antibiotic mentioned), is an example.

The reason that molds make something to kill bacteria, is that they are in competition. So, the bacteria that can resist these poisons do have some resistant genes, and, under the right situation (You took 3/4 of the pills....felt OK, so didn't take the rest...had a virus, demanded an antibiotic for it, and got it...and so forth...)...are selected for, because you kill the ones that are sensitive to your poison, leaving less competition for the ones with more resistance.

Had you finished your prescription, you might have knocked out the ones with more resistance too for example, but, the ones LEFT now ALL pass on a resistance gene set...and, the progeny may be all but immune.

Evolving a defense to that can happen that quickly....when you apply natural selection in that fashion.

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Old 12-10-2014, 04:29 AM #3830
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Oh, Oh oh, let me think of my next rebuttal. Uhhh you just keep saying so much I don't know what to attack!

Good night. I'm tired.

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Old 12-10-2014, 04:33 AM #3831
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Oh, Oh oh, let me think of my next rebuttal. Uhhh you just keep saying so much I don't know what to attack!
LOL

I'm going to bed.

I gotta get in up 4 hours.


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Old 12-10-2014, 04:41 AM #3832
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej, that is not how that works at all. many antibiotics are made from bacteria and molds, but not all are, and they don 't have genes that are there from thousands of years ago. They actually mutate, which means that their DNA has changes by chance and if the mutation is beneficial it will remain. They also have what are known as pili that they use to add DNA to other organisms. But, the main reason that there are resistant staphylococcus is that they MUTATE. That is called " survival of the fittest". It is explained in Darwin's book on "The origin of the species". Most people who rail against this book have never even read it. Most believe that Darwin stated that we evolved from apes. He never said anything of the sort. Evolution is the basis of all modern biology and is the most accepted theory around. Even the pope has admitted that evolution is real.
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:08 AM #3833
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Teej, that is not how that works at all. many antibiotics are made from bacteria and molds, but not all are, and they don 't have genes that are there from thousands of years ago. They actually mutate, which means that their DNA has changes by chance and if the mutation is beneficial it will remain. They also have what are known as pili that they use to add DNA to other organisms. But, the main reason that there are resistant staphylococcus is that they MUTATE. That is called " survival of the fittest". It is explained in Darwin's book on "The origin of the species". Most people who rail against this book have never even read it. Most believe that Darwin stated that we evolved from apes. He never said anything of the sort. Evolution is the basis of all modern biology and is the most accepted theory around. Even the pope has admitted that evolution is real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
A LOT of the antibiotics we take to kill bacterial infections are made by fungi/molds.

The Penicillin (Ancestor of the antibiotic mentioned), is an example.

The reason that molds make something to kill bacteria, is that they are in competition. So, the bacteria that can resist these poisons do have some resistant genes, and, under the right situation (You took 3/4 of the pills....felt OK, so didn't take the rest...had a virus, demanded an antibiotic for it, and got it...and so forth...)...are selected for, because you kill the ones that are sensitive to your poison, leaving less competition for the ones with more resistance.

Had you finished your prescription, you might have knocked out the ones with more resistance too for example, but, the ones LEFT now ALL pass on a resistance gene set...and, the progeny may be all but immune.

Evolving a defense to that can happen that quickly....when you apply natural selection in that fashion.
Where did I say ALL?

LOL



And, yes, they got the genes in the first place that way....but some of these mutations occurred a long time ago due to the presence of a stressor.

THOSE are the ones that can develop a resistant population quickly, you're just selectively breeding out the one's w/o the resistance.

This is the case typically for the existing antibiotics.

So, we use what they already make, but, sometimes, as chaos lord linked to, sometimes they can mutate and all of a sudden, bam, a NEW antibiotic is available....50 years later if we notice it...or, BAM, an old reliable one is now obsolete. (It does depend, medically at least, if we mean the bacterium is now different, or, if the MOLD is now different...as the latter is making the new toxin, and the former is developing a resistance to the new toxin....typically, as we are usually talking about antibiotics for bacterial infections.

If you read some of my posts in this thread, you're sort of preaching to the choir....there was a context to this post relative to chaos lords post, perhaps missed.




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Old 12-10-2014, 05:11 AM #3834
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If anyone thinks that genes can only work with what is available, not make new things, then read the study I posted, it's fairly well known. It's also interesting to note that Amoebas have far larger genomes than humans
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:44 AM #3835
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Plants have a larger genome than humans, too. I never said that "you". Teej, said "all". I just stated that as a relevant point. The reason that these pathogens are resistant is that they make a substance called Beta Lactamase. All the penicillins have a Beta Lactam ring. It is necessary for the therapeutic action of them. Augmentin is a combination of Amoxicillin and a totally synthesized drug that attacks the Beta Lactamase. It is used against these strains that attack penicillin. The Beta Lactamase strains got that way very recently. There haven't been Beta Lactamase producing strains around for a long time. The main point is that no matter how much of a penicillin you take it is ineffective against these stains. So, they didn't get that way because some people took too low a dose or didn't complete their full therapy.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:04 PM #3836
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Correct, they didn't "get that way", in the case of people not finishing prescriptions, etc...they were selected for by the partial filtering of their population, which left more of them with that resistant trait proportionally, with fewer competitors.

So, there are genetic changes that trigger expression of existing genes (Chickens carry genes for teeth, but, they are not typically expressed), so that some buried mutation from the past (teeth, resistance, etc...), can be selected for and made to express by the environment...

AND

There are mutations that happen in the present that confer the same type of potential changes...changes that either work, and get selected for/express, and, changes that don't pan out.


So, if instead of teeth, a chicken mutated a gene set and its off spring were then born with 4 wings and 4 legs, as chickens don't really (Here at least) breed freely, we breed them essentially, the lucky farmer who finds these weird chicks will either then breed them for the "Buffalo Wing" industry, getting double the normal production rate and a handsome profit, or, kill them as the work of the Devil and sell the remains to the Creationist Museum, etc.

In practice, the mutations are less likely to add appendages, but, there are two headed snakes, and so forth, so, while unlikely to confer a natural advantage in the wild, a better drum stick/wing option WOULD potentially be selected for by a selective breeding process that took advantage of the mutation...and, made it more likely to be passed on than it would have been in the wild.



So, we can have a chicken start expressing a previously unexpressed gene set, be selected for its already expressed but previously not particularly advantageous gene set, or, a get a completely new mutated gene set, etc.


From what I've been seeing, the new mutations are more likely to be incremental....much like with technology's advances that depend on a particular prior advance, that suddenly releases a prior bottleneck somewhere.

So some random mutation changes what one end of a compound looks like...but, the effect might be fatal, or, not have a noticeable impact per se, etc...but, later, when ANOTHER change somewhere creates another compound that has an affinity to or new reaction with that changed end, a NEW set of metabolic changes can happen, and so forth.

That long-term study linked earlier is a great way to see these types of changes first hand, and a great idea. Imagine if we had the resources to follow more organisms this way?

We would learn so much more.

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Old 12-10-2014, 10:28 PM #3837
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I stumbled on this article today:

Groundbreaking idea of life's origin.

Fits right in with the current discussion.
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:32 PM #3838
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
I stumbled on this article today:

Groundbreaking idea of life's origin.

Fits right in with the current discussion.
Very cool find. Reverse Entropy? Interesting that it was in Business Week

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Old 12-10-2014, 11:59 PM #3839
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Its not so much reverse entropy to me, as its an open system application, so, there is energy being added by the sun, etc.

Very cool idea to explore.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:52 AM #3840
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah, there's no such thing as reverse entropy. It is increasing entropy out of the so called system into the outside of the system. But, that is not correct either. You have to look at the organism AND its environment as the system. Then you have entropy increasing in the system which doesn't defy the second law of thermodynamics. This is an interesting idea, but it is far from anything more than an idea at this point.
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