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Old 12-10-2014, 12:09 AM #3809
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Show me where.

I said evolution is TRUE and change over time is a FACT which it is. Change over time is one the many facts within the theory. I really have doubts about your comprehension level.
Show you where what part of what I said?
Edit: You said evolution is true. If something is true then it is a fact. You said evolution is true. Therefore, evolution is fact.
You said theories are not laws or facts. You called evolution a theory, as do many, myself included.
So in the end you said evolution is a theory and a fact. And you also said that theories are not facts.
This is not worth debating with someone who contradicts them self. But, anyways, continue, I'm listening!

EDIT: Under one condition I may have misunderstood you. That is if you meant to say that "it is true that evolution is a theory."



Last edited by USAbro; 12-10-2014 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:36 AM #3810
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

USAbro, you clearly don't understand what the scientific method is. Please read through this and hopefully you'll learn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyspaz View Post
Never heard that before, what/who is it from?
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:38 AM #3811
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Show you where what part of what I said?
Edit: You said evolution is true. If something is true then it is a fact. You said evolution is true. Therefore, evolution is fact.
You said theories are not laws or facts. You called evolution a theory, as do many, myself included.
So in the end you said evolution is a theory and a fact. And you also said that theories are not facts.
This is not worth debating with someone who contradicts them self. But, anyways, continue, I'm listening!

EDIT: Under one condition I may have misunderstood you. That is if you meant to say that "it is true that evolution is a theory."
Wow. Usabro you really are something else. I have had small children understand these explanations perfectly in half the time yet watching you struggle has lost its entertainment factor a long time ago. I don't care if you take offense to my words. Someone needs to let you know how absolutely ignorant the the things that come out of your mouth are.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:10 AM #3812
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This ought to make you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV8pHHTo94Y
If you watch the whole thing, you'll be fascinated.

@Cyparagon-I read through it and watched the video. +rep

Last edited by USAbro; 12-10-2014 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:42 AM #3813
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

people need to stop confusing the theory of evolution with the origin of life. Evolution explains the mechanism by which organisms change, but does not explain life's origin, science is working on that, and admits that it isnt sure. this is no reason to say, "see science cant figure it out, must've been god"

positing god as the explanation for anything dead ends that particular road of learning

thanks teej, saved me some typing

If you think that abiogenesis is impossible because life never spontaneously forms in a steril container, know that the earth is hardly a sterile environment, and never was. nor was it ever a closed system like those who do not understand the second law of thermodynamics like to claim

Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:59 AM #3814
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:59 AM #3815
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
This ought to make you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV8pHHTo94Y
If you watch the whole thing, you'll be fascinated.

@Cyparagon-I read through it and watched the video. +rep
OK, I was watching the above vid with an open mind, and then ran into more lies and deceptions.

Example, Miller's experiment that he said "inspired him" was later shown to "Be thoroughly discredited" when later SCIENCE indicated that the H2 might have not been as prevalent, and that all attempts to repeat the experiment failed.



The REALITY of it was that it DID change SOME of the amino acid results, but IT STILL PRODUCED AMINO ACIDS.

Not only that, Millers' samples were reanalyzed with more modern techniques that are better at DETECTING amino acids, and found that WITHOUT the H2, they STILL found MORE amino acids than Miller had reported WITH the H2.


So, Lie Example: (Aside from every word he utters potentially?) "New info/data thoroughly discredited the experiment" (It didn't actually discredit it, merely added some MORE of what Miller said was there. If the POINT was that its suppose to convince us that the conditions would NOT produce amino acids without H2, these claims are misleading, and, essentially lies to fool stupid people.

STROBEL is saying THAT THE discrediting of Miller's experiment is what "changed him back to believing in god", and, he IMPLIES he researched this thoroughly...but apparently forgot to actually READ THE GOSH DARNED REPORT THAT HE THOUGHT CONVERTED HIM.

He ALSO spent MOST of the time prattling on over personal crap of no value, but, one CLUE is he married a girl who probably P-whipped him into pretending to believe what she did or something. THAT'S conjecture, he could just be a lying prick with his own agenda, perhaps the sale of books and being paid to appear at conventions of stupid people, etc.


So if the ass clown pretending to be telling the truth about his "research" is stupider than he's supposed to be, fine, but, he's SUPPOSED to be smart...so, he's a liar.

He is either smart and lying, or, stupid. There are no other choices.

AND


Until YOU do the math you said you DID NOT copy from somewhere...I don't believe you either. You keep NOT doing it. (Posting an answer is not posting the math....I need to see the math it self, because I need to KNOW you understand it to explain the REST of the statistical mistakes.

Your replies regarding it indicate that you don't get WHY that math is so important to explain a CONCEPT derived from it.


The card hand odds are EASIER than the calculations you "Made up yourself", so, it would be no problem if you actually are not lying yourself. Just post the math, the equation, and how you solved it.

Then tell me how I drew those cards if the odds against it were so high. Then we can move forward.





PROVE to me that all creationists are not liars.

Do the math, post it.

Shut me up about it.


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Old 12-10-2014, 02:02 AM #3816
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Small proof of evolution: MRSA(Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus).

Over many decades of antibiotics being prescibed, this nasty strain of staphylococcus began popping up.

Due to environmental pressure (widespread antibiotics) staphylococcus EVOLVED the ability to resist this poison. This is very much like the early organisms of primordial earth, who after filling the air with deadly oxygen, EVOLVED to use it instead.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:11 AM #3817
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
OK, I was watching the above vid with an open mind, and then ran into more lies and deceptions.

Example, Miller's experiment that he said "inspired him" was later shown to "Be thoroughly discredited" when later SCIENCE indicated that the H2 might have not been as prevalent, and that attempt to repeat the experiment failed.

The REALITY of it was that it DID change SOME of the amino acid results, but IT STILL PRODUCED AMINO ACIDS.

Not only that, Millers' samples were reanalyzed with more modern techniques that are better at DETECTING amino acids, and found that WITHOUT the H2, they STILL found MORE amino acids than Miller had reported WITH the H2.

So if the ass clown pretending to be telling the truth about his "research" is stupider than he's supposed to be, fine, but, he's SUPPOSED to be smart...so, he's a liar.

He is either smart and lying, or, stupid. There are no other choices.

AND


Until YOU do the math you said you DID NOT copy from somewhere...I don't believe you either.

The card hand odds are EASIER than the calculations you "Made up yourself", so, it would be no problem if you actually are not lying yourself.



I'm seeing a very dishonest pattern.

PROVE to me that all creationists are not liars.

Do the math, post it.

Shut me up about it.

Some creationists are liars. But you said that creationists are liars, which covers all. I did copy the math. I didn't paste the math. I copied through my mind but not the computer. I heard what sounded reasonable. I wouldn't even understand the factors to put into the equation because I'm not a physicist or mathematician.

@shakenawake-I never thought about that before. It could be possible that God created the universe, and then caused evolution, with knowledge and control over the outcome. Let me do some more thinking.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:25 AM #3818
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
Small proof of evolution: MRSA(Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus).

Over many decades of antibiotics being prescibed, this nasty strain of staphylococcus began popping up.

Due to environmental pressure (widespread antibiotics) staphylococcus EVOLVED the ability to resist this poison. This is very much like the early organisms of primordial earth, who after filling the air with deadly oxygen, EVOLVED to use it instead.
We all know oxygen is used for combustion. How did creatures live if oxygen (O2) was deadly to them? Maybe you mean the earth was flooded with ozone (O3). And what you stated, I think but could be wrong, is called macro evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-10-2014 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:36 AM #3819
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Some creationists are liars. But you said that creationists are liars, which covers all. I did copy the math. I didn't paste the math. I copied through my mind but not the computer. I heard what sounded reasonable. I wouldn't even understand the factors to put into the equation because I'm not a physicist or mathematician.

@shakenawake-I never thought about that before. It could be possible that God created the universe, and then caused evolution, with knowledge and control over the outcome. Let me do some more thinking.
LOL

So you pasted with your mind...got it. If I was your teacher, I'd give you an F for not doing your own work, and worse, using an invalid source.

Sigh.

OK, look, the REASON all of US who know enough about real life keep challenging you is that you are not yet able to make an actual case for what you are trying to "prove".

To people like us, (IE: NOT EVERYONE), we see a kid who was told there's Santa Claus, quoting toy commercials and Christmas Catalogs to prove there is a Santa Claus.

We say, um, you are quoting sources designed to SELL you stuff.

You say, no way, the commercial said its for REAL!

The Toy Catalog says right here on page 12 that Santa is REAL! It also says that they never lie, so, that PROVES its true!

The commercial on TV said that there is NO other explanation as to how we get toys every Christmas morning.

They said the bad evil people trying to ruin Christmas say the presents are from (HAH HAH HA HO HO HO, so funny...) your PARENTS!!!!!

BUT, look at the presents you got last year, you got a sleigh, a robot, a Red Ryder BB gun with compass, and a set of sweet footie jammies.

According to our calculations, the odds of YOUR PARENTS getting you THOSE EXACT PRESENTS were 1,000,000,0000,000,000,000 to ONE!

That's IMPOSSIBLE!

So, any fool can see that its OBVIOUSLY impossible for your PARENTS to have bought you those nifty presents, and, therefore, the ONLY POSSIBLE CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY ARE FROM SANTA!!!!


Last edited by Teej; 12-10-2014 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:45 AM #3820
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

So you pasted with your mind...got it. If I was your teacher, I'd give you an F for not doing your own work, and worse, using an invalid source.

Sigh.

OK, look, the REASON all of US who know enough about real life keep challenging you is that you are not yet able to make an actual case for what you are trying to "prove".

To people like us, (IE: NOT EVERYONE), we see a kid who was told there's Santa Claus quoting toy commercials and Christmas Catalogs to prove there is a Santa Claus.

We say, um, you are quoting sources designed to SELL you stuff.

You say, no way, the commercial said its for REAL!

The Toy Catalog says right here on page 12 that Santa is REAL! It also says that they never lie, so, that PROVES its true!

The commercial on TV said that there is NO other explanation as to how we get toys every Christmas morning.

They said the bad evil people trying to ruin Christmas say the presents are from (HAH HAH HA HO HO HO, so funny...) your PARENTS!!!!!

BUT, look at the presents you got last year, you got a sleigh, a robot, a Red Ryder BB gun with compass, and a set of sweet footie jammies.

According to our calculations, the odds of YOUR PARENTS getting you THOSE EXACT PRESENTS were 1,000,000,0000,000,000,000 to ONE!

That's IMPOSSIBLE!

So, any fool can see that its OBVIOUSLY impossible for your PARENTS to have bought you those nifty presents, and, therefore, the ONLY POSSIBLE CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY ARE FROM SANTA!!!!

Haha Made me laugh. However, the OP of the threads username is "VillageIdiot." Maybe you need to take on that name!

No, just kidding because you have pretty good points. It's not bad to say what we hear, it's not like we have our own laboratory and huge telescope to research for ourselves!

What about the God controlled evolution? What's your take on that?
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:00 AM #3821
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
We all know oxygen is used for combustion. How did creatures live if oxygen (O2) was deadly to them? Maybe you mean the earth was flooded with ozone (O3). And what you stated, I think but could be wrong, is called macro evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Um, no, you are wrong. Teej even mentioned this in one of his post.

When life first existed on earth, the atmosphere had no oxygen. It was mostly methane, CO2, and other gasses we don't want to breath.

So primordial life used the gasses available (CO2) and expelled O2 (like plants). However, oxygen is actually a corrosive, and was toxic to life. Then it evolved to use it (like us, and all animals).

Free radicals are one example of how oxygen can be harmful.

Ever heard of anaerobic bacteria?

Once again you missed the point, or at least chose not to respond to it.

Edit: staphylococcus mutated to survive an increasingly hostile environment. Does it matter what type of evolution this is? It still evolved.
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:01 AM #3822
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What about the God controlled evolution? What's your take on that?
First we would ask the question,

"is there a difference between 'god evolution" and 'regular evolution'?"

we might follow up with,

"if there is a difference, can we test for it to know the difference?"

Occam's razor demands that if there are two working explanations of something, the one with fewer assumtions is better and preferred. God is an unnecassary element in explaining evolution, as it can be explained without him, and we've no evidence or reason to believe he might have been involved apart from our own wishful thinking

Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

USAbro, there are Christians who accept evolution as the fact it is and chose to believe pretty much both, like you said, god guided evolution. this is basically an attempt to reconcile the two to avoid the cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier. the truth is, the Bible can not be reconciled with science and evolution, there is no way to rationally interpret the bible as such. it clearly implies god made all life as-is. some try to say the six days of creation could have been years and years, citing the bible when it says that a day is like a thousand years to god or whatever. you're free to look into it, but a totally honest and internally consistent person can not believe in both
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:07 AM #3823
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
Um, no, you are wrong. Teej even mentioned this in one of his post.

When life first existed on earth, the atmosphere had no oxygen. It was mostly methane, CO2, and other gasses we don't want to breath.

So primordial life used the gasses available (CO2) and expelled O2 (like plants). However, oxygen is actually a corrosive, and was toxic to life. Then it evolved to use it (like us, and all animals).

Free radicals are one example of how oxygen can be harmful.

Ever heard of anaerobic bacteria?

Once again you missed the point, or at least chose not to respond to it.
Plants use O2. Although that's a different process. Creating their own food (photosynthesis) is a completely different process from respiration.

Are you saying combustion can occur without oxygen? I didn't know that?
Just because plants use C02 you must ask why? For creating food? Am I not right?
Plants are just like us in that they take in oxygen and give off C02.
A completely different process, does the reverse, as a by product of photosynthesis.
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:07 AM #3824
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
We all know oxygen is used for combustion. How did creatures live if oxygen (O2) was deadly to them? Maybe you mean the earth was flooded with ozone (O3). And what you stated, I think but could be wrong, is called macro evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong.
OK, you are thinking. Good.

Yes, oxygen is used for combustion, and, its also used to power US, and most animals. Air is mostly nitrogen, and ~ 21% oxygen.

At higher concentrations, oxygen (O2) is toxic to us. At lower concentrations, we suffocate, as O2 is the part of the air that we need to live. The only reason our heart is pumping blood through our lungs and then to the rest of our body and back, so our lungs can absorb the oxygen into our bloodstream, and, get rid of the carbon dioxide we breathe OUT.

The EARLY earth didn't have much O2. It had more carbon dioxide (CO2).

Plants/things that turn sunlight into sugar, etc...use carbon dioxide, as that's what was in the air TO absorb when they evolved.

NOTHING breathed O2 yet...there wasn't enough to use yet.

Well, nothing really ATE other things yet either...so, like a modern algal bloom, the stuff breathing in CO2 and breathing out O2 (Plant like things, plankton, etc) filled the air with more and more oxygen.

Imagine you tie a bag around your head...and YOU breath out CO2 and breath in O2...and, with every breath, the bag on your head has less and less O2, and more an more CO2...and, eventually, due to a lack of O2, you start to turn purple and pass out.

Now imagine you do the opposite, and, your head is the earth...the planet is breathing and using up the CO2, and breathing out O2...and the planet turns purple and passes out.

Ozone is O3, a separate issue btw...we can go back to it later if you'd like.



OK, so, too much O2, not enough CO2 for life as it was THEN....

..but, due to normal variations in these wee beasties...they EVOLVED the ability to USE O2, and not be poisoned by it.

Vultures can USE Clostridium bacteria in their guts, and to us, we'd die of food poisoning if it was in our guts...but they evolved a way to NOT be poisoned by it.

Same deal...they can "burn" O2 for energy instead of sunlight and CO2.

And, the amazing thing is that O2 gave more energy than CO2 and photosynthesis. These critters had a lot more energy to work with...and, just to make it even WORSE for the plant like things...the O2 burners could MOVE BETTER and go FIND the plant like things and eat them.

The payback was that the things eating the plants breathed OUT the very CO2 that the plants were dying without!


So, we had stuff eating the things that made the O2, that actually gave OFF the CO2 the plant things needed again!

So, some making it, and some using it up, with each giving off what the other one needed to live.


So, when the conditions had more, or, less of a gas or nutrient, etc...the critters simply died, or, some of them were able to live under the new conditions.

WE are used to ~ 21% O2 because that's what it was when WE evolved.

We can deal with percentages in the teens up to 100% for a while...meaning we have inherited some resilience in that regard. We work best in the roughly 21% range though, as, that's what we're used to.

When athletes do "Blood Doping", they are essentially training at high altitude (LESS DENSE AIR/LESS O2), so their bodies get used to the low O2 supply, and make more red blood cells to compensate, then they drain out the "Super blood" and save it for competition, where they get it transfused back into themselves for an added O2 boost ability.


The early atmosphere was not ONE SET OF CONDITIONS, it varied all over the place as the BALANCE of stuff breathing in/out what the others used and eating each other, etc...settled into various equilibrium.

During EACH of these periods in time, the BEST concentrations for life changed, and, then the conditions changed, and life changed, and, this is still happening.

I measured the CO2 and other gases in the air for work over the years, and, very early on, perhaps the 1970's, I noticed my CO2 instruments were SUPPOSED to be air-zero'd at 330 part per million (ppm) CO2, meaning, you turn it on, and, adjust the needle so its pointed at 330 ppm when in the outdoor air. I might then also take CO2 reading inside government buildings, universities, etc.

The numbers were not making sense to me, so I had a gas company make a bottle of calibration gas with exactly 330 ppm of CO2 in it. I then set the equipment to read 330 ppm when the bottle of 330 ppm gas was connected.

I then measured the outdoor air, and saw it was actually closer to 400 ppm of CO2.

All (ALL) the encyclopedias, references, etc, still said it was 330 ppm. It was higher....all over the country. In industrial areas, it was even higher, but that's from local activities, not "The atmosphere" per se.

So, CO2 levels were going up. When the CO2 is higher, we trap more heat, and, the planet gets warmer overall. ~ 0.1 of ocean temp warming can increase the storm severity by one class, so, a Category 1 Hurricane might be a 2, and so forth.

Its still changing...and who knows what your great grandchildren will be breathing, and where, in case MD is under water by then, etc.








Anyway - does the oxygen thing make more sense now?

Last edited by Teej; 12-10-2014 at 05:05 AM.
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