Old 12-09-2014, 06:19 PM #3793
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

@crazyspaz-your right, we'll know what when we die, but hopefully we'll know one way or the other before then.
If you mean't to neg me that's fine, do it on another post. Also, I did read through the posts since then. Read them last night when I got some time. I'm interested in the other side of the story, meaning evolution. I like to hear their arguments too.



Last edited by USAbro; 12-09-2014 at 06:21 PM. Reason: more things to say
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote










Old 12-09-2014, 06:37 PM #3794
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Theory of Gravity is not proven. We know the force of gravity is real, but were not sure of the source, so there are THEORIES on what causes it.
You seem fairly knowledgeable on the topic. If so, explain to me about the complexity of DNA and how it came to be.
Even if creatures living on the earth did evolve, explain where the blueprints came from.

For example: If I take a single cell with all the parts that make it up, and put in it a solution perfect for life in a test tube, and then take a micro sized needle and poke it, it will start oozing out its insides. Even if you have all those parts ready, then how can evolution show that it can be put back together. Remember: Humpty Dumpty can't be put together again.
Another issue. Explain how the universe is "fine tuned"? By that I mean explain how all the variable factors are perfect for life.
Such as:
Force of Gravity
Strong Nuclear Force
Electromagnetic Force

Just imagine in their was no Strong Nuclear Force. Or if it was weaker. How did these forces and constants evolve? If it was weaker, atoms may not stay together, causing no chemistry no water no nothing. If there was no electromagnetic, then there's no light, no bonding of chemicals. All these forces came into existance, your saying with no cause. Just take one of them away and there's no more life.

Just imagine if gravity wasn't right, just a bit more and we'd be crushed including anything larger than about a grain of rice!
Also the cosmological constant. Explain that! Scientists agree that it is fine tuned to 1 part in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000.
That's kind of like 1 atom in the whole universe.

All this precisness has been compared to taking darts (or a dart) and throwing them at the ground from several hundred miles up...........and hitting a marker 1 trillionth of a trillionth of an inch in diameter. I guess the dart would have to be pretty small, but you get the point!
And the strong nuclear force. If that decreased just a bit (1 part in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) then the only element left would be hydrogen.
Seems your last way out would be to say that the universe were in, is just 1 of countless universes.

Do you think the universe looks like it was fined tuned?

As Dr. Jay Richards stated, if their are multiple universes, then chance gets a new lease on life because their are now more variables.
If a machine is putting out universes, maybe a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion universes, eventually you get the right one. Maybe that happened but it seems unlikely to me. ID seems more likely on the other hand, because the universe can be fine tuned by an intelligence. Although there is no proof of ID, logical thinking leads one (at least me) to believe in anything else. There's no PROOF of evolution, but their is strong evidence of it.
For now, I'd say that evolution has got evidence, and intelligent design has not direct evidence but a sound basis, and for me, I'm believing in ID.
Saying a creator for sure doesn't exist, IMO, would be like Galileo saying the sun doesn't exist because we've never actually been there or have the right equipment to be sure.


LOL

That's a LOT of pasting from sites with creationist lies and deceptions, but, I am glad you at least are TRYING to address facts, even if you use sources and arguments that have been debunked so many times over its not even funny.

You of course have no clue that what you pasted is drivel, and, designed to confuse you (Successfully it seems.)

Sigh, just when I resolve to try to not type long answers, you ask about how DNA works, when, I wonder if you have ANY of the prerequisite knowledge to discuss it?

I will attempt to explain how life started in a laser pointer forum post though if that's what you are asking, instead of say using Wikipedia, etc...


I'm going to condense some details for the sake of my new found brevity.


"Life" is not what started. What started was the formation of some chemicals that...over millions of years, eventually combined in a form that allowed that chemical to react to what it was floating in, and make copies.

If you take the gases in the air and the chemicals calculated to have been present, you can get some simple chemicals, and, when you react those simple chemicals with each other, they connect to each other to form new, larger, more complicated chemicals.

Examples of this phenomenon occur in high school chemistry class for example. We make synthetic oil from this phenomenon, so it is real, proven, and can and does happen.

So, again, over millions of years, these reactions are just simmering away. When you have some stuff in a pot, and you combine some of them into a clump, more of what was floating in the stew is now not available, as its clumped...

,,,so, over the millennia, the chemicals that collected more stuff, used more of the stuff, and so forth.


Some of the stuff can form longer chemical chains, such as peptides and amino acids. These can be synthesized in the laboratory as well.

If these react with each other so as to create a mirror image chemical, so that the two sides mirror each other, you can then also have chemicals that formed, hold the two sides together.

We can synthesize these as well.

After that point, there can be compounds that react to the stew to pull out the parts it needs to make a copy of itself.

This is not life either, it would be like putting sodium and chlorine into solution, and having their chemical nature simply attract them to each other...making sodium chloride.

They don't have to "want to" go together...they just are chemically constructed so that they do that. Its elementary school chemistry, so I'm sure you're still on board?

So, when the chemical that looks like a long chain, has some affinity for a short chain at certain POINTS in its shape, and, the other side of that short chain has the opposite affinity for the OTHER long chain...you get two chains, joined as though by ladder rungs along their length.

This is a complex molecule that now simply tends to react with the stew, and make more of that molecule.

When you paint your walls, etc, many of the paints have polymers, and these cross link with each other...its a simple process that took a long time for man to discover, but, its easily induced and quite reliable for making polymers, etc.

Eventually, RNA, which is simply one of these chemicals that can copy itself...makes enough copies that there's an awful lot of it in the stew.

Other compounds, such as lipids (Attracted to water on one end, and hydrophobic at the other end)...are ALSO attracted to these chemicals, and, as they are attracted to water on one end, and repelled at the other end, they naturally align all in the same direction...and for a membrane.

If you put any lipid into a pool of water, it does the same thing, basic chemistry.

So, eventually, as one end of the lipid is attracted to the RNA and the other to the outside of the "clump", you get a lipid membrane around the chemical that can now make copies of itself inside this nice membrane.

The ones in the membrane are more likely to then make even more copies of themselves, as its just more likely that a self replicating chemical in a membrane will make more of itself than the ones loose in the rest of the stew.

If some chemicals tend to make holes in the membrane, or to change what can get through the membrane, then the clumps of RNA in those membrane will either die more readily, or, have even more opportunities to get what they tend to use to make more copies.

As the copies can now make copies even better, because they are just chemical reactions, and new stuff from the stew can get in/out of the "bag" as these things go through millennia of reactions...even MORE complicated chemicals can form, such as adding the parts that make RNA eventually be DNA.

And so forth and so on, over billions of years. The chemicals just got more and more complicated, just as they do in the lab under the same conditions.

We can't of course get grants to do experiments that require billions of years, so, we can't replicate ALL of it, we just keep a sort of scrap book of pictures of each phase to see if it CAN occur, and if so, given that given that sort of time, if it CAN occur, and the result expected if it DID was actually what we SEE, then we assume that it did.

Form a chemical perspective, its confusing for a non-scientist (And even some scientists) to say what life IS.

For example, the most complex chemical we know of, that most don't consider to be "alive", is a virus.

Its basically a sac with say, RNA in it, that makes copies of itself from whatever stew its in.

It then breaks open and spews the RNA into the stew, where it does what it does, and attracts the chemicals and compounds that "clump" with it, and, then, naturally, a membrane forms, and it starts over again.

Again, the RNA its spewing into the stew potentially included good copies, and, some poor copies, and everything in between. Some of the copies make new copies, some don't work at all, and some might react a smidge differently, and react in a way that makes the virus more likely, or, less likely to replicate in the future.

This is WHY the flu shots are DIFFERENT every year. The Influenza VIRUS mutates and changes (Mutate is a quick way to refer to changes, but, there are other ways to change in that way too, but, we're skipping them for brevity's sake)

There might be SEVERAL versions of that virus floating about at any given point...so, the original ones from LAST year, and, some new ones this year, all at the same time (Because the bow and arrow doesn't magically cease to exist just because the gun developed, etc)

So, as simplified as I can boil it down to between working like I'm supposed to etc...that's how we got here. Known chemical reactions lead to known chemical reactions, and, the increases in complexity that are expected can be found at the milestones they should be found at, indicating the road is the correct one.

Over billions of years of increasing complexity, the complex chemicals can ask how they came to be.






The other stuff you pasted about strong and weak forces and gravity, um, that's so flawed as to be unanswerable in the form presented....as it indicates a lack of understanding so profound as to be conceptually fatal.


MOST of it boils down to again, ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS.


The MOST egregious is the mistaken use of STATISTICS to predict PROBABILITY.

Some great examples of this were given in many places by many of who posted here, but, there WERE a lot or words, and, you didn't have to read any of them, and, so, are still in the dark.


I'll summarize (OK< My version of a summary...):

Imagine that I draw 7 cards from a deck, randomly...so I have a "hand".

Now, use the math you pasted about the odds against me getting that hand...only fill in the real numbers...or, take my word for it that its infinitesimally small odds.

IE: Using your math, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to have drawn THOSE 7 cards.

If you think I am lying, do the math.


Now imagine I draw 7 STRAWS from a giant bushel with millions of straws in it. (Not just 52 cards, millions)

Apply your math, and, once again, it would be even MORE IMPOSSIBLE for me to have drawn THOSE 7 straws.


So you see how this works?

Its using the wrong equation to evaluate the odds of something happening...as if that proves it CAN'T happen.

The reality is, if I draw 7 random cards, straws or analogies, the math to determine IF it was possible, if CORRECT, would not predict that it wasn't if it had actually happened.


The real proof is I could do it over and over again, and if I draw 7 random cards, no matter HOW MANY TIMES I DO IT, I will (WILL!) always (ALWAYS!!!) get 7 random cards.


Your math doesn't allow it to happen, mine DOES.

Who's math is more likely to be right?


Would you go with the math that PREDICTS IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN THOUGH IT HAPPENS EVERY TIME?

OR

Would you go with the math that PREDICTS IT WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME, MATCHING THAT IT WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN EVERY TIME?

I'll await your response.


Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 07:12 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 07:03 PM #3795
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

I didn't paste at all. I just have watched a lot of videos and debates.

I understand fully what I'm saying. I'm not just reading this and putting down arguments that I copied and pasted. Your rebuttal to my arguments are lame and it sounds like you've created you own idea about evolution.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-09-2014 at 07:07 PM.
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 07:45 PM #3796
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I didn't paste at all. I just have watched a lot of videos and debates.

I understand fully what I'm saying. I'm not just reading this and putting down arguments that I copied and pasted. Your rebuttal to my arguments are lame and it sounds like you've created you own idea about evolution.
LOL

I guess if you never actually studied it, you might think I invented it, yes...but, trust me on this, this is ALL stuff in text books already...I did paraphrase it to avoid getting deep into organic chemistry in a post, etc.

There is no way that you understand what you posted, or, you would not have posted it. The PREMISE of your post is fatally flawed, applying the wrong math to the wrong problem and getting the wrong answer....and not REALIZING WHY its wrong.




I did not "post a rebuttal to your argument" as you didn't actually make an argument, essentially, instead, just asking questions that you didn't know had answers, and, statements that you can't imagine there being answers to.


OK, please plug in the numbers for the math you did not paste, substituting the odds for if I drew 7 random cards from a deck of 52.

IE: Use YOUR math to tell me the odds against me drawing those 7 cards.

Explain it to me as you go if you feel I'm a bit slow on the uptake and need the added guidance to get what you mean, etc.

Post it here, and we'll discuss the next part.




If you are feeling really ambitious, also use your math to illustrate the odds that a supreme all powerful, all knowing being, would create THIS earth, with THESE people and animals and plants.

If that's a bit hard to set up, just calculate the odds that he would create an earth with life forms based upon carbon or sulfur, out of ALL the available elements he COULD HAVE used on the periodic table (Use an even 100 elements to simplify it a bit, and compute for just THOSE two of them being used).




I'll wait, do the first one though to see if we're on the same page conceptually.

Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 08:00 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:01 PM #3797
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,268
Rep Power: 11375
Encap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond repute
Encap Encap is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,268
Rep Power: 11375
Encap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond reputeEncap has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

There are two kinds of human thoughts: Those that handle the physical that does exist and... those that handle the non-physical that is fiction that doesn't exist.

An article of faith that is integrated within the science of physics is the belief that time exists! Time as God is immaterial, nobody seen it, nobody proved its existence! Yet time appears in many of physics equations, just as God appears in the scriptures. Physicists belief in time is proof that in some specific circumstances beliefs predominate too in science. Science and religion are definitely different, yet faith is not what distinguishes them!

Bottom line: No matter our theories, no matter our religion, reality remains a mystery! It's as simple as that!
Encap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:29 PM #3798
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encap View Post
There are two kinds of human thoughts: Those that handle the physical that does exist and... those that handle the non-physical that is fiction that doesn't exist.

An article of faith that is integrated within the science of physics is the belief that time exists! Time as God is immaterial, nobody seen it, nobody proved its existence! Yet time appears in many of physics equations, just as God appears in the scriptures. Physicists belief in time is proof that in some specific circumstances beliefs predominate too in science. Science and religion are definitely different, yet faith is not what distinguishes them!

Bottom line: No matter our theories, no matter our religion, reality remains a mystery! It's as simple as that!
Hopefully we can either prove evolution or disprove it. At least one or the other way we would stop arguing.

@teej-If there was absolute proof in ID would you believe?
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:31 PM #3799
olympus mons's Avatar
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
olympus mons olympus mons is offline
Class 3R Laser
olympus mons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
So because air or nitrogen is invisible you don't believe it's there? It's affects can be seen, and it can be detected but not seen.
Do you really not see the flaws in your reasoning here? It CAN BE DETECTED! Not only that it can be measured and predicted.
__________________

lllllll--------------o---||||||||]_
_________________________
lllllll-o----------------||||||||]
olympus mons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:40 PM #3800
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Do you really not see the flaws in your reasoning here? It CAN BE DETECTED! Not only that it can be measured and predicted.
Yeah that post was a bit stupid. BUT I SAID IT CAN BE DETECTED! You said I said it couldn't!

@teej-the answer to the odds of those cards being drawn are this: EDIT: 674274182400
The odds of just 1 of those things happening that I mentioned were much higher. Much, much, much higher.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-09-2014 at 08:56 PM.
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:43 PM #3801
Wolfman29's Avatar
Class 3B Laser
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 3,828
Rep Power: 227
Wolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond repute
Wolfman29 Wolfman29 is offline
Class 3B Laser
Wolfman29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 3,828
Rep Power: 227
Wolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

EDIT: Sorry for the wall. It's interesting though, I promise!

I don't usually post here, but I will post some to maybe help make things clearer for both Teej and USAbro.

@Teej: Like USAbro said, if everything were up to chance, using your analogy, the chances that you draw a a specific hand is astronomically small. However, because the chances of drawing any specific hand is equal (exactly), the chances of drawing any specific hand is no less likely than any other specific hand. And, by unitarity (meaning that the probability of all possible events must sum up to exactly 1), the probability of drawing one of those hands is finite and will happen.

The issue, then, is that it is true that it seems that the universe is remarkably fine tuned for life. While this has not be resolved scientifically yet, there are several theories (in the scientific sense - models that describe the real world we observe around us) and several hypotheses (models that may correctly describe some part of the real world, but do not necessarily have smoking-gun evidence yet) that try to explain away the seemingly fine-tuned nature of the universe.

The real point, though, is that we are here. This is called the anthropic principle, which, vaguely, indicates that the universe must be tuned such that intelligence could arise otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. It's possible that, instead of us being here, there could just be a dead universe and that would be that. However, the hard part in considering this is the word universe, meaning "one world." In typical language, the universe encompasses everything that exists, which makes it hard to think of something outside the universe. In reality, however, the scientific meaning of the universe is "the observable universe." We have absolutely no idea what is going on outside of the observable universe, which, almost definitely, does exist. In this sense, it is possible that the laws of nature are distinct outside of the observable universe and we would never, nor could we ever, know.

@USAbro: You seemed like you disliked the idea of a multiverse. That's fine - no one is suggesting that there are parallel universes or whatever. The more modern scientific idea of a multiverse is instead patches of universes that have slightly (or vastly) distinct physical laws or initial conditions. However, they all started at the same time our universe began, some 13.8 billion years ago or so. The big bang is actually a really fuzzy area and an area of common misconception, but I won't go into that unless asked. Regardless, though, the point is that it is entirely possible that, potentially 100 trillion light years away (far outside our observable universe), light cannot propagate through a vacuum, or protons decay in 10 minutes, or what have you. Because we have no evidence, it is entirely possible that this is the case.

Now, I know that you're thinking that this is just as provable as ID - which is entirely the case, you're right. The best theories would be ones that explain the relative strengths of the fundamental forces in the universe from first principles and a few universal constants rather than from fine-tuning parameters. Yet, those have yet to be found. But don't get me wrong - most scientists believe that some theory like that exists and are actively seeking it out (exactly what I will be working on in a few years, actually).

In fact, some of these problems have even been resolved by a well-supported theory called inflation. Using inflation, we can explain why the universe seems geometrically flat (rather than spherical or hyperbolic) and we can explain why the universe seems homogenous when it otherwise shouldn't (various parts of the universe are not within causal contact, so without inflation, it wouldn't be possible for the temperatures to have leveled out). It is theories like inflation that scientists expect will resolve many of these problems.

Also - common misconception about "the cosmological constant." First, it may or may not exist - that's not proven yet and people are working on it. Some people think it's a cosmological constant, others think that the cosmological constant is zero (by some yet unknown symmetry) and instead we have a negative energy causing the accelerating universe. Second, if the cosmological constant does turn out to be the cause of the acceleration, it's not that it's fine-tuned to that level, i.e. changing it by that little would result in catastrophic changes in the universe. Rather, it is approximately 10^120 smaller than naive calculations would expect it to be. But that just means those naive calculations are wrong, not that it is necessarily fine tuned.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Hope I elaborated on some things.

Last edited by Wolfman29; 12-09-2014 at 08:44 PM.
Wolfman29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:52 PM #3802
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman29 View Post
EDIT: Sorry for the wall. It's interesting though, I promise!

I don't usually post here, but I will post some to maybe help make things clearer for both Teej and USAbro.

@Teej: Like USAbro said, if everything were up to chance, using your analogy, the chances that you draw a a specific hand is astronomically small. However, because the chances of drawing any specific hand is equal (exactly), the chances of drawing any specific hand is no less likely than any other specific hand. And, by unitarity (meaning that the probability of all possible events must sum up to exactly 1), the probability of drawing one of those hands is finite and will happen.

The issue, then, is that it is true that it seems that the universe is remarkably fine tuned for life. While this has not be resolved scientifically yet, there are several theories (in the scientific sense - models that describe the real world we observe around us) and several hypotheses (models that may correctly describe some part of the real world, but do not necessarily have smoking-gun evidence yet) that try to explain away the seemingly fine-tuned nature of the universe.

The real point, though, is that we are here. This is called the anthropic principle, which, vaguely, indicates that the universe must be tuned such that intelligence could arise otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. It's possible that, instead of us being here, there could just be a dead universe and that would be that. However, the hard part in considering this is the word universe, meaning "one world." In typical language, the universe encompasses everything that exists, which makes it hard to think of something outside the universe. In reality, however, the scientific meaning of the universe is "the observable universe." We have absolutely no idea what is going on outside of the observable universe, which, almost definitely, does exist. In this sense, it is possible that the laws of nature are distinct outside of the observable universe and we would never, nor could we ever, know.

@USAbro: You seemed like you disliked the idea of a multiverse. That's fine - no one is suggesting that there are parallel universes or whatever. The more modern scientific idea of a multiverse is instead patches of universes that have slightly (or vastly) distinct physical laws or initial conditions. However, they all started at the same time our universe began, some 13.8 billion years ago or so. The big bang is actually a really fuzzy area and an area of common misconception, but I won't go into that unless asked. Regardless, though, the point is that it is entirely possible that, potentially 100 trillion light years away (far outside our observable universe), light cannot propagate through a vacuum, or protons decay in 10 minutes, or what have you. Because we have no evidence, it is entirely possible that this is the case.

Now, I know that you're thinking that this is just as provable as ID - which is entirely the case, you're right. The best theories would be ones that explain the relative strengths of the fundamental forces in the universe from first principles and a few universal constants rather than from fine-tuning parameters. Yet, those have yet to be found. But don't get me wrong - most scientists believe that some theory like that exists and are actively seeking it out (exactly what I will be working on in a few years, actually).

In fact, some of these problems have even been resolved by a well-supported theory called inflation. Using inflation, we can explain why the universe seems geometrically flat (rather than spherical or hyperbolic) and we can explain why the universe seems homogenous when it otherwise shouldn't (various parts of the universe are not within causal contact, so without inflation, it wouldn't be possible for the temperatures to have leveled out). It is theories like inflation that scientists expect will resolve many of these problems.

Also - common misconception about "the cosmological constant." First, it may or may not exist - that's not proven yet and people are working on it. Some people think it's a cosmological constant, others think that the cosmological constant is zero (by some yet unknown symmetry) and instead we have a negative energy causing the accelerating universe. Second, if the cosmological constant does turn out to be the cause of the acceleration, it's not that it's fine-tuned to that level, i.e. changing it by that little would result in catastrophic changes in the universe. Rather, it is approximately 10^120 smaller than naive calculations would expect it to be. But that just means those naive calculations are wrong, not that it is necessarily fine tuned.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Hope I elaborated on some things.
Uh, that's put so well. +rep

I was trying to think of how to refute the playing cards thing. But what you said is right. Just like their are lots of combinations of playing cards an their possibilities are rare, their may be lots of possibilities for the universe to be any way, and the way that supports life is super rare, not to mention, mathematically speaking, it's much more rare than those silly playing cards.
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 08:55 PM #3803
Wolfman29's Avatar
Class 3B Laser
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 3,828
Rep Power: 227
Wolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond repute
Wolfman29 Wolfman29 is offline
Class 3B Laser
Wolfman29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 3,828
Rep Power: 227
Wolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond reputeWolfman29 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Thanks, I suppose! It is true that the possibilities for the ways to support life is rare, but it must have happened, just like how the possibility of drawing a set of cards is rare. If you draw 5 cards and it's a royal flush, you might think, "Oh, this deck is stacked!" But really, it's just as likely as drawing 5 other random cards. But we're here, so we know it happened. Now, the question is, did it happen over and over until we saw the one we exist in now? I.e. did someone just draw cards over and over until they saw the royal flush? Or is the deck actually stacked? I think that someone just drew cards over and over, i.e. the universe has different physical properties outside of the observable universe, and we just happen to observe the one that has life (i.e. the royal flush) because there isn't life in the other ones to observe it!
Wolfman29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 09:14 PM #3804
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Hopefully we can either prove evolution or disprove it. At least one or the other way we would stop arguing.

@teej-If there was absolute proof in ID would you believe?


We need to start with you posting the same math you used in your post, applied to the odds of selecting 7 random cards from a 52 card deck, and getting that EXACT hand.

Just do what you did to show the odds against the things you said could not happen...

To show the odds against getting that exact hand.



After you do that, we can move forward. Until you do that, its impossible to explain to you what's going on.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 09:18 PM #3805
jdawg's Avatar
Class 1M Laser
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Maryland, 20 min outside of Washington, DC
Posts: 163
Rep Power: 268
jdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond repute
jdawg jdawg is offline
Class 1M Laser
jdawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Maryland, 20 min outside of Washington, DC
Posts: 163
Rep Power: 268
jdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

AHAHA "new found brevity". Let's try even shorter

In good humor,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

That's a LOT of pasting from sites with creationist lies and deceptions, but, I am glad you at least are TRYING to address facts, even if you use sources and arguments that have been debunked so many times over its not even funny.

You of course have no clue that what you pasted is drivel, and, designed to confuse you (Successfully it seems.)

Sigh, just when I resolve to try to not type long answers, you ask about how DNA works, when, I wonder if you have ANY of the prerequisite knowledge to discuss it?

I will attempt to explain how life started in a laser pointer forum post though if that's what you are asking, instead of say using Wikipedia, etc...


I'm going to condense some details for the sake of my new found brevity.


"Life" is not what started. What started was the formation of some chemicals that...over millions of years, eventually combined in a form that allowed that chemical to react to what it was floating in, and make copies.

If you take the gases in the air and the chemicals calculated to have been present, you can get some simple chemicals, and, when you react those simple chemicals with each other, they connect to each other to form new, larger, more complicated chemicals.

Examples of this phenomenon occur in high school chemistry class for example. We make synthetic oil from this phenomenon, so it is real, proven, and can and does happen.

So, again, over millions of years, these reactions are just simmering away. When you have some stuff in a pot, and you combine some of them into a clump, more of what was floating in the stew is now not available, as its clumped...

,,,so, over the millennia, the chemicals that collected more stuff, used more of the stuff, and so forth.


Some of the stuff can form longer chemical chains, such as peptides and amino acids. These can be synthesized in the laboratory as well.

If these react with each other so as to create a mirror image chemical, so that the two sides mirror each other, you can then also have chemicals that formed, hold the two sides together.

We can synthesize these as well.

After that point, there can be compounds that react to the stew to pull out the parts it needs to make a copy of itself.

This is not life either, it would be like putting sodium and chlorine into solution, and having their chemical nature simply attract them to each other...making sodium chloride.

They don't have to "want to" go together...they just are chemically constructed so that they do that. Its elementary school chemistry, so I'm sure you're still on board?

So, when the chemical that looks like a long chain, has some affinity for a short chain at certain POINTS in its shape, and, the other side of that short chain has the opposite affinity for the OTHER long chain...you get two chains, joined as though by ladder rungs along their length.

This is a complex molecule that now simply tends to react with the stew, and make more of that molecule.

When you paint your walls, etc, many of the paints have polymers, and these cross link with each other...its a simple process that took a long time for man to discover, but, its easily induced and quite reliable for making polymers, etc.

Eventually, RNA, which is simply one of these chemicals that can copy itself...makes enough copies that there's an awful lot of it in the stew.

Other compounds, such as lipids (Attracted to water on one end, and hydrophobic at the other end)...are ALSO attracted to these chemicals, and, as they are attracted to water on one end, and repelled at the other end, they naturally align all in the same direction...and for a membrane.

If you put any lipid into a pool of water, it does the same thing, basic chemistry.

So, eventually, as one end of the lipid is attracted to the RNA and the other to the outside of the "clump", you get a lipid membrane around the chemical that can now make copies of itself inside this nice membrane.

The ones in the membrane are more likely to then make even more copies of themselves, as its just more likely that a self replicating chemical in a membrane will make more of itself than the ones loose in the rest of the stew.

If some chemicals tend to make holes in the membrane, or to change what can get through the membrane, then the clumps of RNA in those membrane will either die more readily, or, have even more opportunities to get what they tend to use to make more copies.

As the copies can now make copies even better, because they are just chemical reactions, and new stuff from the stew can get in/out of the "bag" as these things go through millennia of reactions...even MORE complicated chemicals can form, such as adding the parts that make RNA eventually be DNA.

And so forth and so on, over billions of years. The chemicals just got more and more complicated, just as they do in the lab under the same conditions.

We can't of course get grants to do experiments that require billions of years, so, we can't replicate ALL of it, we just keep a sort of scrap book of pictures of each phase to see if it CAN occur, and if so, given that given that sort of time, if it CAN occur, and the result expected if it DID was actually what we SEE, then we assume that it did.

Form a chemical perspective, its confusing for a non-scientist (And even some scientists) to say what life IS.

For example, the most complex chemical we know of, that most don't consider to be "alive", is a virus.

Its basically a sac with say, RNA in it, that makes copies of itself from whatever stew its in.

It then breaks open and spews the RNA into the stew, where it does what it does, and attracts the chemicals and compounds that "clump" with it, and, then, naturally, a membrane forms, and it starts over again.

Again, the RNA its spewing into the stew potentially included good copies, and, some poor copies, and everything in between. Some of the copies make new copies, some don't work at all, and some might react a smidge differently, and react in a way that makes the virus more likely, or, less likely to replicate in the future.

This is WHY the flu shots are DIFFERENT every year. The Influenza VIRUS mutates and changes (Mutate is a quick way to refer to changes, but, there are other ways to change in that way too, but, we're skipping them for brevity's sake)

There might be SEVERAL versions of that virus floating about at any given point...so, the original ones from LAST year, and, some new ones this year, all at the same time (Because the bow and arrow doesn't magically cease to exist just because the gun developed, etc)

So, as simplified as I can boil it down to between working like I'm supposed to etc...that's how we got here. Known chemical reactions lead to known chemical reactions, and, the increases in complexity that are expected can be found at the milestones they should be found at, indicating the road is the correct one.

Over billions of years of increasing complexity, the complex chemicals can ask how they came to be.






The other stuff you pasted about strong and weak forces and gravity, um, that's so flawed as to be unanswerable in the form presented....as it indicates a lack of understanding so profound as to be conceptually fatal.


MOST of it boils down to again, ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS.


The MOST egregious is the mistaken use of STATISTICS to predict PROBABILITY.

Some great examples of this were given in many places by many of who posted here, but, there WERE a lot or words, and, you didn't have to read any of them, and, so, are still in the dark.


I'll summarize (OK< My version of a summary...):

Imagine that I draw 7 cards from a deck, randomly...so I have a "hand".

Now, use the math you pasted about the odds against me getting that hand...only fill in the real numbers...or, take my word for it that its infinitesimally small odds.

IE: Using your math, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to have drawn THOSE 7 cards.

If you think I am lying, do the math.


Now imagine I draw 7 STRAWS from a giant bushel with millions of straws in it. (Not just 52 cards, millions)

Apply your math, and, once again, it would be even MORE IMPOSSIBLE for me to have drawn THOSE 7 straws.


So you see how this works?

Its using the wrong equation to evaluate the odds of something happening...as if that proves it CAN'T happen.

The reality is, if I draw 7 random cards, straws or analogies, the math to determine IF it was possible, if CORRECT, would not predict that it wasn't if it had actually happened.


The real proof is I could do it over and over again, and if I draw 7 random cards, no matter HOW MANY TIMES I DO IT, I will (WILL!) always (ALWAYS!!!) get 7 random cards.


Your math doesn't allow it to happen, mine DOES.

Who's math is more likely to be right?


Would you go with the math that PREDICTS IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN THOUGH IT HAPPENS EVERY TIME?

OR

Would you go with the math that PREDICTS IT WILL HAPPEN EVERY TIME, MATCHING THAT IT WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN EVERY TIME?

I'll await your response.

__________________
Waterproof 501 200mw 405nm
Yobresal 1.4W 445nm
Laser 2W 445nm
Krypton Groove by Grainde 3W 445nm

501 host "Grasshopper" 170mw 520nm
301 host 50-100mw 532nm x4
Jetlaser Pl-E Pro 800mw 532nm!

Waterproof 200mw 635nm


An assortment of other eBay pens/lasers..
jdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 09:52 PM #3806
olympus mons's Avatar
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
olympus mons olympus mons is offline
Class 3R Laser
olympus mons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Hopefully we can either prove evolution or disprove it. At least one or the other way we would stop arguing.
Usabro- as has been the norm with your replies you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
You aren't aware they're are 2 different types of proof. The definition as it pertains to a courtroom in which proving something is an exercise in logic and scientifically proving something which has nothing to do with absolute certainty. It means it has been put through the vigorous paces of the scientific methods. You are using the word prove in the legal context but referring to things scientifically.
Evolution is true. Change over time is a FACT. There is no jury out and we are waiting for the verdict. The only people that do not accept evolution are ignorant, dishonest creationist nutballs.

You haven't a clue know what a scientific theory is. You again are using the term theory as in the casual context of the word or how it would be used in a legal proceeding. ie-I have a theory about how John killed Mary. In that context it means I have an idea.

A scientific theory is the HIGHEST achievement a hypothesis can become in science. A scientific theory is as "prooved" as anything CAN be in science. It is not a guess, it is not an idea. For a hypothesis to become a theory it has to undergo the most brutal tests and peer review from independent sources. A scientific theory will never graduate to become a law or fact. Facts are observations and measurements in nature. Laws are descriptions of how things work and behave in nature. ie- the law of gravity.

There is no debate on evolution! Creationists like yourself are the only ones pretending that there is a contreversy. Your best spokes people like Ken ham and Kevin and Eric Hovind are known liars and utter morons making millions of dollars because there are so many gullible Christians that follow these liars and give them their hard earned money. Wake up!

Not to be cruel but your replies are riddled with ignorance and immature statements showing your youth and lack of understanding of the things in which you speak of. I have been quite easy on you because you are a kid but if you insist on spewing these ridiculous statements over and over then from here on out you are fair game and I will not be giving you anymore breaks because of your age.

You are arguing from pure Christian creationist ignorance and even then you don't know what you are talking about. You have NOTHING productive to contribute to this topic and are proving this over an over again.
__________________

lllllll--------------o---||||||||]_
_________________________
lllllll-o----------------||||||||]

Last edited by olympus mons; 12-09-2014 at 09:59 PM.
olympus mons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 10:21 PM #3807
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Usabro- as has been the norm with your replies you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
You aren't aware they're are 2 different types of proof. The definition as it pertains to a courtroom in which proving something is an exercise in logic and scientifically proving something which has nothing to do with absolute certainty. It means it has been put through the vigorous paces of the scientific methods. You are using the word prove in the legal context but referring to things scientifically.
Evolution is true. Change over time is a FACT. There is no jury out and we are waiting for the verdict. The only people that do not accept evolution are ignorant, dishonest creationist nutballs.

You haven't a clue know what a scientific theory is. You again are using the term theory as in the casual context of the word or how it would be used in a legal proceeding. ie-I have a theory about how John killed Mary. In that context it means I have an idea.

A scientific theory is the HIGHEST achievement a hypothesis can become in science. A scientific theory is as "prooved" as anything CAN be in science. It is not a guess, it is not an idea. For a hypothesis to become a theory it has to undergo the most brutal tests and peer review from independent sources. A scientific theory will never graduate to become a law or fact. Facts are observations and measurements in nature. Laws are descriptions of how things work and behave in nature. ie- the law of gravity.

There is no debate on evolution! Creationists like yourself are the only ones pretending that there is a contreversy. Your best spokes people like Ken ham and Kevin and Eric Hovind are known liars and utter morons making millions of dollars because there are so many gullible Christians that follow these liars and give them their hard earned money. Wake up!

Not to be cruel but your replies are riddled with ignorance and immature statements showing your youth and lack of understanding of the things in which you speak of. I have been quite easy on you because you are a kid but if you insist on spewing these ridiculous statements over and over then from here on out you are fair game and I will not be giving you anymore breaks because of your age.

You are arguing from pure Christian creationist ignorance and even then you don't know what you are talking about. You have NOTHING productive to contribute to this topic and are proving this over an over again.
This post I find offensive. However, I read through your entire post after you called me an "ignorant, dishonest nutball."

I see where your coming from. You use no logic and say that evolution is fact. Even evolutions don't say that! You just said in your own words that theories aren't fact, yet you say that evolution is!!!!!!!!!
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 11:06 PM #3808
olympus mons's Avatar
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
olympus mons olympus mons is offline
Class 3R Laser
olympus mons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,285
Rep Power: 1302
olympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond reputeolympus mons has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
This post I find offensive. However, I read through your entire post after you called me an "ignorant, dishonest nutball."

I see where your coming from. You use no logic and say that evolution is fact. Even evolutions don't say that! You just said in your own words that theories aren't fact, yet you say that evolution is!!!!!!!!!
Show me where.

I said evolution is TRUE and change over time is a FACT which it is. Change over time is one the many facts within the theory. I really have doubts about your comprehension level.
__________________

lllllll--------------o---||||||||]_
_________________________
lllllll-o----------------||||||||]

Last edited by olympus mons; 12-09-2014 at 11:06 PM.
olympus mons is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://laserpointerforums.com/f57/lpf-s-religion-34223.html
Posted By For Type Date
DARPA Continues Human Experiments to Create Military Super Soldiers - Top US World News | Susanne Posel Daily Headlines and Research This thread Refback 08-05-2014 01:49 AM
Def belongs in my future home | Caylin&#39;s | Pinterest This thread Refback 05-19-2014 05:18 PM
Man slays son; claims God told him to | Say What? This thread Refback 06-17-2012 04:35 AM
LPF's Religion - Page 92 - Laser Pointer Forums - Discuss Lasers & Laser Pointers This thread Refback 02-29-2012 04:46 AM










Loading












Privacy Policy | Advertising Disclaimer | Terms of Use


 


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:12 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
Privacy Policy | Advertising Disclaimer | Terms of Use
Copyright (C) 2017 Laser Pointer Forums, LLC