Old 12-08-2014, 06:11 PM #3777
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
Class 4 Laser
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
InfinitusEquitas InfinitusEquitas is offline
Class 4 Laser
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
Default Re: LPF's Religion

That's certainly a big part of the problem. The almost inevitable creation of the us vs them mentality that even celebrated. The thin blue line, the code of silence, the blue wall.

On top of that their training to always take control of the situation, that often just escalates a minor encounter into something entirely different and bad, instead of de-escalating.

Then add in use of force training - yes cops are taught to use whatever force they feel is necessary to protect themselves - and that's not at all the same as the minimum amount of force that can be used, which is how most people tend to thing of situation, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Cops have dangerous jobs, and have to protect themselves. This is taken for granted by the public, but it's bullshit. Garbage men, liquor store clerks, fishermen, oil refinery workers, lumberjacks. Statistically all of these occupations are more dangerous!

So why do we accept the paranoia from cops, where they see everyone as a target, shoot first, ask questions later? Lack of education.

I think/hope, the Garner case is bringing these issues to light, and forcing people who traditionally defend cops automatically, to question their assumptions.

Cops = biggest, baddest, best armed, and most dangerous gang, on their own turf.

Cops = for the most part neither bad, nor good, but unfortunately for cops not being good, is bad, due to the powers granted to them.



Sharp cheddar please


InfinitusEquitas is offline   Reply With Quote










Old 12-08-2014, 07:50 PM #3778
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

There are a LOT of factors at play you guys mention.

The cops NEED to be "Brothers" because that's what HAPPENS when you put a group of people into harms way, and they learn to count on each other. So, just like in the military, for the most part, cops are going to stick together....BECAUSE that's human nature.

Its all well and good, and quite easy for outsiders to say, "well, each cop should be an independent stanchion of honesty and integrity and responsible to the public they serve and not their fellow officers".

That's a nice mission statement or other worthless drivel, but its not how PEOPLE act. The old adage that a friend won't rat you out to the police, but your BEST friend will help you bury the body...applies to the cops too, even if its seems "more wrong".


Imagine this for perspective: You lost your temper and whacked a perp with your nightstick too hard, and he got a concussion and might die...you partner saw it happen.

Later that day, the two of you are in a shootout with a gang, and, you are risk your life to save your partner, and your partner saw it happen.

On any given day, you, or he, may need to risk their lives to save the other/cover a butt.

OK, your partner reports that you lost your temper and used excessive force, and you are now faced with possibly losing your job and pension and medical benefits, and, how motivated are you NOW to risk your life for the guy who is causing you this loss?

Would YOU, after ratting out your partner, feel ok about making a run and saying "cover me!"?

If you THINK the other guy might not cover your butt under fire, or in court, or in debriefing, etc...the relationship is dead, and, cops, soldiers, etc, can't work like that.

So, its not realistic to expect cops to NOT be brothers in arms...even if it would be better from an ideological stand point....when they screw up.


A separation between the prosecutor and the police might be a better idea, but again, its logistics. The prosecutor and the police HAVE TO work together to get convictions, or BOTH are wasting their time.

In many jurisdictions, the police essentially are voting for/selecting the prosecutor...so the prosecutor's bread is buttered with blue butter.

You don't bite the hand that blue butters your bread.


Add to that the adrenalin surge people get under stress and in fight or flight scenarios, and, some individuals simply get louder and more aggressive/violent when charged up than others.

In many neighborhoods, being relaxed is viewed as being weak, and, vulnerable...and an aggressive hard style is favored typically to shut down any chance of counter attack, etc.

Some cops have a MUCH higher rate of "resisting arrest" charges, as in, for some reason, the perps seem to resist arrest a lot more when he's doing the arrest.

That can mean he's too violent, and, covers it up by saying, Oh, he resisted arrest....so I HAD to subdue him with extra force....or, he has a really nasty beat to patrol, etc....and the gang kids tend to resist arrest if their friends are watching, so as not to have "backed down".

Some cops will beat down harder when THEIR friends are watching, so THEY are not perceived as "soft".

Its a nasty circle.

If there were an independent entity beholden to say the state/public, and not a neighborhood, that would at least be able to take cases that involve police violence away from the local courts where the same accused cop might be friends with everyone, it would be a start.

Its another layer of government of course, but, right now, there is a lot of civil unrest due to the lack of transparency and lack of trust.

A Grand Jury, by definition, is confidential...designed TO keep an unjustly accused person from being sent to trial, and unnecessarily ruining their reputation. If there's not enough evidence to bring to trial, let him go. The records are sealed typically for that reason.

NOW, people are DEMANDING sealed Grand Jury No True Bill findings, which, they are not allowed to have legally....because they can't BELIEVE after watching a tape of a crime, that there was not enough evidence to indict the commiter of the crime on the tape.

They don't TRUST that the people who saw the tape and perhaps ADDITIONAL evidence, did NOT know he was guilty...they assume they were either mislead or lied to or were biased/fixed, or SOMETHING.

When people lose faith (FAITH!) in the legal system, society can break down. Of course, it can then be rebuilt....fixing the problems that lead to the collapse, so its not ALL bad.


Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 12:33 AM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 09:21 PM #3779
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
Class 4 Laser
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
InfinitusEquitas InfinitusEquitas is offline
Class 4 Laser
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
Default Re: LPF's Religion

There is certainly a human factor involved. I think most people understand that, and it's not taken for granted. You can't work with someone day in, day out, without a separate non professional relationship being built.

This is part of why there need to be cameras, and why people are pushing for them so hard. People see that cops cannot be be trusted anymore than any other eyewitness.

I have to say, you're also making a big assumption that police work is dangerous, day in, day out, everyday, every stop. It's not.

That is to say it's no more dangerous than MANY other common professions. Shootouts are not the norm. Despite action movies, most cops rarely if EVER have reason to actually shoot, outside of practice. Policing has never been safer as a profession than it is today.

Unfortunately what the Garner case highlights, and why there is such an outcry, is here we do have that obvious failure of the system, where like you said it TEEJ, people just don't understand how these people could have reached that conclusion, having seen that same video.

In the meantime, while I agree that aggressive policing tends to affect minorities more, I hate the fact that it's been turned into a race issue.

EDIT: Here's another example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...5b9_story.html

What are these cops being taught that three of them cannot restrain one fat man? One would think these incidents be a rare exception, but they pop up all the time, and tend to only reach notoriety when someone dies, and even then, usually they do not.

The litmus test to me, is to wonder, what would have happened if one man, or group of men, did that to another? What would happen next? With cops, they are almost never fired, and rarely if ever, are taken into custody. Assuming ANY action is taken, it's to have the person do desk duty for a while, or paid administrative leave... aka vacation.

If three gangbangers smothered someone to death, or even just three random people, you can bet all three would be in jail, and the prosecutor wouldn't bother with a grand jury.

Last edited by InfinitusEquitas; 12-08-2014 at 09:33 PM.
InfinitusEquitas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 09:34 PM #3780
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Its a race issue because it evolved into one.

Most cops I know that work areas that are rough/have gangs are COMPLETELY different from cops in areas where traffic stops and routine work are the norm, and they might go a year w/o drawing a weapon, if ever, etc.

If you work in gang territory, you might get blown away at a car you pulled over to let them know a tail light was out...EVERYONE becomes a potential threat.

Its like the boys in Vietnam...as soon as someone they can't tell from a friendly villager kills their brother, ALL the villagers are now "the enemy"....and they start doing the shoot first and ask questions later routine.

Minority cops start to think of minorities they see as scum...their own minority if that's who the bad guys in that neighborhood are.

Most start off very fair and nice, and, after they have to deal with the gangs, they get hardened, and, stop seeing them as people.

As some gang members would prefer to kill you than have a conversation with you, its easy to lose sight of their humanity. The issue is generalization to the rest of the non-gang population that looks like the gang population.

The police are AT WAR with these people, and, as in Vietnam, they stop trying to tell combatants from villagers, and treat them ALL like combatants.


In Mayberry RFD, not the case of course.

In the "Mayberries" you have a nice white upper middle class neighborhood...and a black guy running down the street is arrested because he might be fleeing a crime scene, and the white guy is probably just exercising.

There was a well known author who wrote about when was arrested in his own yard when cops did not believe him when he said it was his own yard...which discusses some of this issue too.


Again, its US, and, THEM. Xenophobia is a VERY common cause of strife.


And you are completely correct, the tendency is that if some poor schmuck too poor to afford a real lawyer gets into a scuff and the other guy dies...he goes to jail for murder, as the free public defenders can have 500 cases and no time to even read the files before seeing the "clients", and typically, read it when they meet them the way a guy who's been to the restaurant and knows what he's going to order goes through the motion of skimming the menu.

They are told to plead guilty because if they plead innocent they will spend more total time in jail waiting for trial, and, if found guilty anyway, will get even more time for not admitting guilt/having remorse, etc...so they plead guilty to rape, murder, whatever, go to jail for it, and didn't do it. (Some DID of course...its just they're all told the same thing)....NEXT!

If a person of means gets busted, they post bail, and DON'T wait in Jail, they mount a defense with evidence and so forth, and, fight it. They have a shot at being found innocent that the poor do not get.

Last edited by Teej; 12-08-2014 at 09:41 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:03 PM #3781
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
Class 4 Laser
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
InfinitusEquitas InfinitusEquitas is offline
Class 4 Laser
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Unfortunately mounting a proper defense is beyond the means of almost all.

Most lawyers charge starting at $150/hr for an associate, and $300 and up for the lead, and that's on the budget end. Not to mention most want a retainer upfront (understandably so), expenses, and there is never any guarantee of outcome. For a serious charge bail is often set to a level far beyond the means of most (even at 10%), and the legal fees are way beyond that. Even if you think you're well off, and have $1,000,000 at your disposal at any given time, the legal defense for a murder charge will exhaust that! For example, take the Zimmerman case. He was upper middle class. His legal fees are upwards of $2.5 million, and he was acquitted.

People who have any interaction with law enforcement find out quickly for themselves how high, and how quickly expenses can mount, so of course many opt to plead guilty, knowing with certainty that they can never afford to have a fair trial of the type we see on tv shows, or movies. - That's pure fantasy, and that's yet another reason why people are mad.
InfinitusEquitas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 12:44 AM #3782
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Absolutely.

The decks are stacked, and those under the stack feel the weight of it everyday.

The thing is that they are TRYING to move, but the WEIGHT is holding them down. IF they DO move though, that stack will come tumbling down.


On the other issue of how many cops does it take to screw in a fat guy...

Really, you can't have expectations for use of force along familiar lines, as the stakes are very high. If you're a cop and you have to wrestle a guy to the ground, you can easily be hurt, even if you just twist your ankle/pull a muscle, etc....let alone that you really don't know if the "fat guy" is a fat guy like wimpy the hamburger wimpy...or, like a sumo who knows martial arts.

Cops are SUPPOSED to use more of them than the perp to help avoid injury, help discourage the perp "going for it", and account for some of the unknowns.

Sit in the emergency room at a city hospital, where there are guys handcuffed by their feet and wrists to gurneys, with TWO cops each...in case they try anything.

So to say "they only needed one cop, or only two cops, to wrestle the guy down because the guy didn't look that tough" is unfair...and naive. Its a different world, and, you do have to make some allowances for the scenario. It can be harder than it looks, and a "fat guy" has a lot of leverage on his side, and, can "get lucky" in his struggles, etc.




So I feel for both sides...neither has it easy. During an arrest, after the arrest, etc...yeah, you'd rather be a cop. If you have to deal with criminals and not cross lines, lines that the criminals can cross with impunity, you'd rather not be a cop.

If you personally were responding to a report of a kid in a playground with a gun, and you respond, and see the kid, and the kid goes for the gun at his waistband...this is not the movies where the good guys can shoot the gun out of his hands or go for the arm/leg, etc...this is real life where you are suddenly faced with your own mortality, and you think about if you'll ever see YOUR kids, and YOUR wife again, etc...if the kid can get that gun out and shoot you with it...and you aim at center of mass, and, for most cops, miss a few times because they are freaking out under stress...and if lucky, do enough damage to not get shot or let others at the playground get shot....or unlucky to do ~ the exact same thing and then find out, later, that it was BB Gun, and, while a shot in your eye etc, might have been bad, it was not as dangerous as you thought.

NO ONE I KNOW at least would let someone shoot them to see what kind of ammo the other guy had though, so, really, if a cop says hands up, and the perp goes hands to gun...even if 12 years old...lots of 12 year old kill people all the time...and THIS ONE went for it when told to put his hands up...to me, that's cause to shoot him, sorry....if it HAD been a more lethal caliber so to speak, and the cop hesitated, the odds are that the kid WAS going to shoot him, and, might have been waiting at the playground, showing the weapon, TO get a chance, who knows.

Therapy might have been better than bullets, but, sometimes, the cards are dealt poorly. Poor kids don't get that much therapy.

Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 12:55 AM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 02:12 AM #3783
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
Class 4 Laser
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
InfinitusEquitas InfinitusEquitas is offline
Class 4 Laser
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
Default Re: LPF's Religion

If there is a gun visible, and it's being brought up, I have little doubt that I myself in that situation would shoot. Having viewed what I can of the released footage from that specific incident I only feel bad for both the cop that fired, and for the kid that died, but definitely no anger toward either.

The problem as I see it, on both sides, is conditioning. From a your age, in school, on tv, on the playground, in the movies, we hear it time and again: HANDS UP.

Even if the command is different, that is the ingrained reaction, that is both defensive, and submissive. When we feel threatened we put our hands up in front of us.

I have little doubt that it's what the kid was trying to do, panicked, also with adrenaline rushing he reached for the gun to take it out, and to put his hands up with it.

At the same time it's impossible to ask the cops to take that chance that the gun is not being raised at them to shoot, and they open fire.

When it comes to cops the commands should always be STOP, DON'T MOVE, and whatever is next, to do it slowly and with hands in clear view.

If the kid just stayed frozen, like a deer in the headlights, I expect he'd be facing some kind of juvenile charge, but he would be alive.

Now regarding subduing someone... yes of course it helps to have more people there... just having 2-3 people to handle one person is going to stop many people from doing anything stupid. At the same time, I think it's ridiculous that they couldn't use any number of approaches to force both Garner, and the disabled kid to submit, and get them to the ground.

Nor was a softer approach taken in either case. While violent crime is down, and cops all over (even in bad areas) are safer than ever, it seems like they employ far more drastic, aggressive means now than in the past.

This is why I'm very much in favor of cameras on everything. So at the very least there is a clear an unbiased record of what is happening. While the Garner case clearly shows that body cameras will not be the end all, be all, panacea to law enforcement brutality, it will help. Put a camera on every glock, on every taser, and on every cop. Along with 2 backup microphones, and you can bet the next Pantaleo will think twice.
InfinitusEquitas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 02:44 PM #3784
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
So because air or nitrogen is invisible you don't believe it's there? It's affects can be seen, and it can be detected but not seen.
I'm not sure why you think I, or anyone else who has a basic working knowledge of chemistry, would think we need to SEE air, or nitrogen, or oxygen, or whatever, to know its there....?

It can be DETECTED. This is a CRITICAL concept.

It's structure can be delineated, and it's place with other elements can be tested and confirmed. It's presence can be confirmed via the scientific method, and if it did NOT exist, its presence would be falsifiable/able to be proved not to exist.

If we deduce the existence of something, say by constructing a chart of the elements, and how they are constructed, and notice that something SHOULD exist, but we've never found it...it then tells us we can look for it/TRY to find it/make it.

Once we find a candidate for the missing element, we can do experiments to confirm it. For example, if it reacts with another chemical in a fashion that confirms its composition and/or properties, that helps to prove we identified the correct subject.

If we react it with something expecting it to yield a result, and it yields a different result, we go back and try to determine why, and, what that new result might tell us.

This is how scientists were able to fill in the periodic table for example....they predicted the existence of elements that we had no knowledge of, and had never been knowingly detected/seen, etc.

This is why we know that it you knock off part of a Nitrogen, you get Carbon 14 instead of normal Carbon 12, or a wounded Nitrogen for that matter.

IE: We predict that a nitrogen atom hit by a neutron can be turned into an isotope of carbon, instead of still being a nitrogen atom.

We can't see it happen, but after many years of study, research and experimental confirmation, we know it will, because its been proven scientifically.

So we CAN detect it, we can predict it, and, if it did not happen, we would have gotten results that prove it did not happen.

Once the carbon 14 is created from the nitrogen atom in the air, it reacts with a a pair of oxygen atoms to form CO2 (The carbon plus two oxygen atoms).

Plants breath CO2 much as we breath oxygen, and, the C14 version of the CO2 is absorbed along with the C12 variety.

As C14 is an isotope, it is not stable. That means that it decays over time, and converts to a more stable form.

The CO2 is almost all C12 based, with only a little C14. Whatever the overall CO2 concentration is, when and where the plants absorb it, that ratio will be very constant...and, therefore, as the C14 decays at a known rate (Also based upon scientific scrutiny and confirmed experimentally to match predictions of the model, etc)...by analyzing the ratio of C12 to C14, you can tell how long ago THAT absorbed C14 was put into that plant, etc.

So, the method is not the ONLY method that uses the above principles, there's argon-argon methods and many many others. They all agree where their applications overlap.

Scientist do not use C14 dating for certain applications, after the research and experimentation found that there were requirements for accuracy.

One requirement is that the sample contain CARBON. If it doesn't contain carbon, the method cannot be used (It analyzes carbon). This means that a fossilized track, an imprint, or where the carbon has been replaced by minerals, so the artifact is in the shape of the original object, but the original object is no longer there, etc,...its not the correct method to date it.

The other requirement is that the carbon absorbed would have been from the atmosphere, and not perhaps part of a marine environment, where creatures are absorbing carbon that was potentially from eating dissolved sources in the water, and THOSE sources can be of any age to start with...so a crab or penguin or shark would not be tested with C14 dating. Many many years ago, before scientists realized this, they saw some errors.

As being able to show a method DOESN'T work is just as important as proving it DOES work, papers were written about how in some cases, false results were occurring. The research then revealed things like the reservoir effect, where a reservoir of older carbon could be taken in, and, the use of C14 dating was amended to account for this type of interference.

So, its like discovering that the X-Rays of broken legs can be interfered with if the patient has lead pants, and to use a different technique if lead pants are present...but that X-Rays work when used in other scenarios....say, for all patients without lead pants.

Then, methods are adjusted to instruct X-Ray technicians, etc, to not use X-Rays where lead pants are present...etc.

Unfortunately, some creationists will submit a sample with no carbon, or from a marine creature, etc, for carbon dating, and, get a false result, and, try to claim the method "Doesn't Work", because it said something recent was old, or something old was recent, etc. Or, they refer to the actual research done many years ago that was used to say, essentially, don't use the technique for marine creatures, etc...and try to say THAT'S why it doesn't work, etc.

This is very misleading to those with no background in science, as they are never told that those are old papers, and the knowledge was used to fine tune a well honed method.

IE: If you submit a bone with varnish on it, and the bone is mineralized and no longer contains carbon, all you are analyzing is the age of the carbon in the varnish...which might have been brushed on by the museum (typically), and which has zero to do with the age of the fossil itself. If a real scientist is trying to determine the age of the bone, that is not how they would attempt to do it, as they would know that you need to have carbon to carbon date something, etc.







So, anyway, yes, it is logical and supportable to believe air and nitrogen exist even though we cannot see them with our eyes alone. There is overwhelming evidence that both exist, it can be confirmed by scientific methods, their existence can be used to predict other phenomena, would have been possible to prove that they did not exist, and believing they exist is a well founded and supportable belief.



Why do you ask?

Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 03:10 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 03:03 PM #3785
DashApple's Avatar
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,325
Rep Power: 1920
DashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond repute
DashApple DashApple is online now
Class 3R Laser
DashApple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,325
Rep Power: 1920
DashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond reputeDashApple has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

And when ya liquefy air its even easier to see : D
__________________
Now the tide is rising
And I’m staring at the wake
I get this feeling inside and
I think that it might be too late
There’s nothing left to confide in
The only thing concrete is this weight
So I’m stuck here deciding
How much more before I break

My heart is sinking like a stone
In an ocean of it’s own
You said I’d never be alone
I guess I should’ve known
DashApple is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 03:30 PM #3786
jdawg's Avatar
Class 1M Laser
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Maryland, 20 min outside of Washington, DC
Posts: 163
Rep Power: 268
jdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond repute
jdawg jdawg is offline
Class 1M Laser
jdawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Maryland, 20 min outside of Washington, DC
Posts: 163
Rep Power: 268
jdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond reputejdawg has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Evolution just has so many things that are missing. I don't know how anyone could come up with it. Darwin himself said that if we didn't find the transitional links, then his story would fall apart. I'm amazed anyone can believe imo.
I believe I have the same views as you, but stating it like that, makes you sound ignorant, unintelligent, and honestly a little kid. Stop reciting comments you hear, go out there and learn.

These "arguments" don't persuade, they just show your childish ignorance.
__________________
Waterproof 501 200mw 405nm
Yobresal 1.4W 445nm
Laser 2W 445nm
Krypton Groove by Grainde 3W 445nm

501 host "Grasshopper" 170mw 520nm
301 host 50-100mw 532nm x4
Jetlaser Pl-E Pro 800mw 532nm!

Waterproof 200mw 635nm


An assortment of other eBay pens/lasers..
jdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 04:09 PM #3787
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Evolution just has so many things that are missing. I don't know how anyone could come up with it. Darwin himself said that if we didn't find the transitional links, then his story would fall apart. I'm amazed anyone can believe imo.
NOTHING NEEDED IS MISSING.

Darwin had JUST started that science. The needed links were all found afterwards....proving that evolution is a fact.


Using a 19th century question that has since been answered to imply that nothing was resolved in the last 150 years or so is a bit silly.

If Franklin said "If electricity does not get to this key from that kite up there, my theory of electricity will fall apart!"

Would you be saying that there might not be electricity, because even the guy who said it might exist said that?


Its a silly argument at best.



Again, evolution is extremely well proven. Real scientists all agree, its the way things work, with no question.


The creationists poison people's minds with arguments meant to trick people who don't like to spend time thinking about things that are not in agreement with their world view.

They pretend that the word "Theory" means an UNproven idea. In science "theory = proven", such as the theory of gravity.

Do you believe that there is no such thing as gravity, or that it might not exist because "its only a theory"?

People who know what the words REALLY mean are NOT confused.

People who are TOLD the incorrect meaning, on purpose, TO confuse them, can then be FURTHER manipulated to then doubt proven scientific facts.


There are no real scientists who think there might not be gravity, its a theory.

Theories explain things, and, can predict things. They can be adjusted or fine tuned, and, sometimes a more USEFUL theory might supplant it in USE.


Creationists will set up straw man arguments, such as "I looked, but never saw a duck give birth to a dog", and other ridiculous arguments.



Lets say you had a critter, lets call it a Hovkind, and, it lived in a prehistoric forest...and ate bananas and apples.

If the bananas and apples were up high, Hovkinds had to wait for them to drop to eat them, but they were tall enough to reach the lower ones.

If some Hovkinds were a bit taller than others, they could get to more of the fruit before it fell, so, taller Hovkinds were more successful, and were more likely to have offspring, and, that offspring would be more likely to be taller.

This is easy to visualize. If two short people have kids, the kids tend to be short. If two tall people have kids, the kids tend to be tall. Sure, SOME will be shorter or taller for either pair, but, the overwhelming tendency will be for the kids to inherit their parent's traits.

If the Hovkinds' environment were to change, say, due to plate tectonics causing two plates to crash into each other, and, form a mountain range right in the middle of the Hovkind environment, the two groups can no longer interbreed.

So, on the east of the range, the east hovkinds are not in a tropical forest, they are in a coastal environment between the ocean and that mountain range. There are no fruit trees, and, they find some low lying bushes that have berries that are pretty good, and eat them instead.

They start living in the bushes, digging down to the roots, which are even more nutritious than the just berries, and are available all year round.

Tall hovkinds have to bend way down to reach the berries and roots, and, with their heads down, they can't see approaching predators. Short hovkinds are less vulnerable, and don't need as much food, but if found, are easier to kill and eat because they are smaller.

So, the parents that are short but strong, and/or are tougher fighters if attacked, pass on their traits to their kids....who pass them to their kids, and so forth...and get gradually better at surviving in this new land.


On the the WEST side of the range, the hovkinds are in a savanna. Flat land with tall grass, and, fruit trees that they can eat as normal.

The west hovkinds still favor tall kids who can get the fruit, and, see over the tall grass when needed to spot predators. Their size gives them an advantage over many smaller predators.

They pass those genes to their kids, and the hovkinds, over time, tend to get taller and better at surviving this land.


The east and west hovkinds will become more and more genetically different over time. They would have been able to breed between themselves for a very very long time...

...but, eventually, they would have had difficulty breeding.

(A horse and a zebra had common ancestors, but, over the millennia, horses became more horse-like, and zebras became more zebra-like.

There would have been no horse that gave birth to a zebra or visa versa, etc. Instead, they can breed, but, the offspring are sterile, which of course, would mean they are different species...just like a lion and tiger can produce a liger, etc...but lions are not tigers or visa versa, they are NOW too different to be the same species)

So, at some point, the east and west hovkinds would also become gradually different over time...and, would go from attempted breeding being problematic, to, eventually, not being possible due to genetic differences.

It would be semantics to wonder when "it" happened. In biology, "it" is not a fair question.

Its like asking "When did my little baby grow up to be a man?"

You have a baby, and, many years later, you have an old man who used to look like a baby.

WHEN did the baby "Become" the old man?

Its a CONTINUOUS PROCESS. There is no real "point" at which the baby "became" the man...despite that he DID become "the man"...but, "the MAN is not even done "becoming the man", as he's still getting older and changing.

Its not an honest question, its a question designed to confuse people.


So hovkinds slowly changed, the way a baby grows up.

How does a baby "turn into" an "old man". If I WATCH the baby, will I SEE IT TURN INTO AN OLD MAN?

What would the exact date and time BE that That HAPPENED?



When EXACTLY did the baby STOP BEING A BABY, and START BEING an an old man?




If it LOOKS LIKE A BABY, you will never see it change to an old man.

You'd have to see it morph, very slowly, into a toddler, a pre-schooler, an elementary schooler, a teen ager, a young adult, a middle aged man, a retired man, and, then an old man....but, if you KEEP WATCHING, an even OLDER man, and so forth.


Does a BABY (NOT the "person", the "baby") - one day - just become an old man?

No, of course not, so the strawman argument that a horse never has a dog is not a valid argument, its an obfuscation designed (DESIGNED) to trick people into asking the wrong question, and then answering the wrong question as though it was the correct answer to the correct question.

The correct question is "Why do we see no modern critters in older rocks, but, we see older critters in older rocks, and, as the rocks get more recent, so are the the critters trapped in it, so what might explain that?"

Could it be that over time, critters became gradually more as they are today? Could it be that a whale doesn't need a wrist and fingers and vestigial hind legs, and a snake doesn't need a pelvic girdle or vestigial legs either...but that they are left over from when their ancestors used to have those features? Why put a part on a snake it not only doesn't need but which getting rid of would help it?

Why do humans have a little bit of their tails still left at the end of their spines? Who's idea was the design for a knee anyway? If starting from scratch, and not just adopting an existing feature meant for a different posture...why in the world would you make a knee the way a knee is made? Etc...


...there are questions that COULD have been asked, and WERE by intelligent inquisitive people, and ANSWERED with real answers instead of made up drivel that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but, which are out of bounds for those destined to ignorance and myth instead of facts and explanations of what their world is actually like.



Why this is hard for some people to recognize when they are being fooled, for many, can be traced to them simply not having a natural curiosity combined with receiving information and accepting it blindly without personally trying to see if it makes any sense/holds up as a valid argument or fact.

Some people WILL read a lot of text to LEARN something.

OTHERS, will look at a lot of text, feel it will not be likely to confirm what they already think, so why bother to read it...and just act like it didn't exist as information. (Skim, see the text disagrees with world view, and stop...no interest from that point onwards)

If the text would be looked at and judged to potentially SUPPORT what they already think, they might read it to get the comfort of their existing world view, etc. (Fox "News" etc, pretty much cater to this crowd)



Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 04:43 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 04:39 PM #3788
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
Class 4 Laser
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
InfinitusEquitas InfinitusEquitas is offline
Class 4 Laser
InfinitusEquitas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 20 Minutes from NYC.
Posts: 15,977
Rep Power: 4658
InfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond reputeInfinitusEquitas has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via MSN to InfinitusEquitas Send a message via Yahoo to InfinitusEquitas
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej, your efforts are admirable, but I think you're wasting your time. The better question to ask, is how many one line arguments need to be disproven before the one writing them is willing to even entertain the idea of being wrong? Those who want to learn, will do so, and will often disprove their own premises. Those who don't will remain willfully ignorant.
InfinitusEquitas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 04:40 PM #3789
TheDukeAnumber1's Avatar
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,041
Rep Power: 727
TheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond repute
TheDukeAnumber1 TheDukeAnumber1 is offline
Class 3R Laser
TheDukeAnumber1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,041
Rep Power: 727
TheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond reputeTheDukeAnumber1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej I would like to throw a little constructive criticism your way if you would be so kind as to not take it personal.

If you would stop using analogies and comparisons, and instead state your views plainly and directly getting to the point. Your posts would be much easier to follow and read.
__________________
“Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."
http://laserpointerforums.com/donations.htm
“It is impossible that any ill should happen to the man who is beloved of the Lord; the most crushing calamities can only shorten his journey and hasten him to his reward. Ill to him is no ill, but only good in a mysterious form. Losses enrich him, sickness is his medicine, reproach is his honour, death is his gain. No evil in the strict sense of the word can happen to him, for everything is overruled for good. Happy is he who is in such a case. He is secure where others are in peril, he lives where others die.”—Spurgeon
Avatar by Yohsi Yaki
TheDukeAnumber1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 04:47 PM #3790
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Teej Teej is offline
Class 3R Laser
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,296
Rep Power: 174
Teej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond reputeTeej has a reputation beyond repute
Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Teej I would like to throw a little constructive criticism your way if you would be so kind as to not take it personal.

If you would stop using analogies and comparisons, and instead state your views plainly and directly getting to the point. Your posts would be much easier to follow and read.

I'm sure you are correct, except I think in terms of analogies...so, doing so would require me to not just quickly write a post, but to take the time to distill it to its essence, and, while that WOULD be MUCH better, I knock these out in between other stuff on my desk I'm doing to make a living....

...and I have time to stream out what I'm thinking, but not to edit it to a more concise form.

You are 100% correct though, and I agree with you.




Maybe in the future I'll re-read what I wrote and see if I can edit the older posts in that way.

Last edited by Teej; 12-09-2014 at 04:48 PM.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 05:33 PM #3791
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
USAbro USAbro is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,310
Rep Power: 0
USAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these partsUSAbro is infamous around these parts
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Theory of Gravity is not proven. We know the force of gravity is real, but were not sure of the source, so there are THEORIES on what causes it.
You seem fairly knowledgeable on the topic. If so, explain to me about the complexity of DNA and how it came to be.
Even if creatures living on the earth did evolve, explain where the blueprints came from.

For example: If I take a single cell with all the parts that make it up, and put in it a solution perfect for life in a test tube, and then take a micro sized needle and poke it, it will start oozing out its insides. Even if you have all those parts ready, then how can evolution show that it can be put back together. Remember: Humpty Dumpty can't be put together again.
Another issue. Explain how the universe is "fine tuned"? By that I mean explain how all the variable factors are perfect for life.
Such as:
Force of Gravity
Strong Nuclear Force
Electromagnetic Force

Just imagine in their was no Strong Nuclear Force. Or if it was weaker. How did these forces and constants evolve? If it was weaker, atoms may not stay together, causing no chemistry no water no nothing. If there was no electromagnetic, then there's no light, no bonding of chemicals. All these forces came into existance, your saying with no cause. Just take one of them away and there's no more life.

Just imagine if gravity wasn't right, just a bit more and we'd be crushed including anything larger than about a grain of rice!
Also the cosmological constant. Explain that! Scientists agree that it is fine tuned to 1 part in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000.
That's kind of like 1 atom in the whole universe.

All this precisness has been compared to taking darts (or a dart) and throwing them at the ground from several hundred miles up...........and hitting a marker 1 trillionth of a trillionth of an inch in diameter. I guess the dart would have to be pretty small, but you get the point!
And the strong nuclear force. If that decreased just a bit (1 part in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) then the only element left would be hydrogen.
Seems your last way out would be to say that the universe were in, is just 1 of countless universes.

Do you think the universe looks like it was fined tuned?

As Dr. Jay Richards stated, if their are multiple universes, then chance gets a new lease on life because their are now more variables.
If a machine is putting out universes, maybe a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion universes, eventually you get the right one. Maybe that happened but it seems unlikely to me. ID seems more likely on the other hand, because the universe can be fine tuned by an intelligence. Although there is no proof of ID, logical thinking leads one (at least me) to believe in anything else. There's no PROOF of evolution, but their is strong evidence of it.
For now, I'd say that evolution has got evidence, and intelligent design has not direct evidence but a sound basis, and for me, I'm believing in ID.
Saying a creator for sure doesn't exist, IMO, would be like Galileo saying the sun doesn't exist because we've never actually been there or have the right equipment to be sure.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-09-2014 at 05:36 PM.
USAbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 06:09 PM #3792
crazyspaz's Avatar
Class 3B Laser
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: IN, United States
Posts: 2,862
Rep Power: 861
crazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond repute
crazyspaz crazyspaz is offline
Class 3B Laser
crazyspaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: IN, United States
Posts: 2,862
Rep Power: 861
crazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond reputecrazyspaz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
@teej-your posts are getting so long, I don't even read through them all the way. Please make it a little shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The problem is that I can read it, I just don't have time to read 20 minute posts. I don't know how you've had that much time to write them!
Are you set against intelligent design.
Right, too busy setting things on fire with battery chargers and drilling through diodes...
edit: Arghhh, accidentally +rep'd again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Worse yet, the right one might be one that hasn't been invented yet.

Worse yet, the right one might never be invented.

Worse still, we might be incapable of inventing the correct one.
Never heard that before, what/who is it from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Agree to disagree gentlemen? lol
This thread could have been closed on that point right there...People will always be different, and will always believe in different things. In the end, will anyone ever PROVE anything? Its called "faith" for a reason; no matter what you believe in, you are putting your faith in something, and I suppose we won't know what's really what until we die, or maybe not even then (depending on what you believe ).

Last edited by crazyspaz; 12-09-2014 at 06:11 PM.
crazyspaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://laserpointerforums.com/f57/lpf-s-religion-34223.html
Posted By For Type Date
DARPA Continues Human Experiments to Create Military Super Soldiers - Top US World News | Susanne Posel Daily Headlines and Research This thread Refback 08-05-2014 01:49 AM
Def belongs in my future home | Caylin's | Pinterest This thread Refback 05-19-2014 05:18 PM
Man slays son; claims God told him to | Say What? This thread Refback 06-17-2012 04:35 AM
LPF's Religion - Page 92 - Laser Pointer Forums - Discuss Lasers & Laser Pointers This thread Refback 02-29-2012 04:46 AM










Loading












Privacy Policy | Advertising Disclaimer | Terms of Use


 


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:17 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
Privacy Policy | Advertising Disclaimer | Terms of Use
Copyright (C) 2017 Laser Pointer Forums, LLC