Old 12-06-2014, 02:05 PM #3761
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hey Teej, I greatly appreciate your response. Unfortunately, everything you just said collapses into a giant logical fallacy. If A is B, and A is C, does that mean B is C?

Interchange A to mentioned below hypocrites, profit-seeking mongrels, corrupt leaders. B to Christianity as a whole. C to evil, useless, corrupt (e.g Devil).

So there plenty of leaders and famous men in history who have clearly abused their power in the name of Christianity. There are probably even more people who have abused power for no reason but because they could. Do having a couple "bad apples" mean the orchard is rotting? That's a statement I would a be a bit hesitant to claim...

I understand the instances you listed, on examples of history clearly portraying religion as a way to evil means. I completely recognize this. You have every right to say that.

However, when you take that opinion of a select few, and then slap it on Christianity as a whole, that's where I have problem.

As the previously mentioned statistic, 32% of the world claim to be Christian. Do you think each and every one us share the same beliefs? The answer is, no.

Nothing itself is evil. It's the means that something is used for that becomes evil.

Speaking from personal experience. A few years back, I had a close friend who had to move. His father was one of the pastors in the church, and they were sent to establish a church in Kenya. (I only found out the name of the country after he returned; it wasn't safe to say it before he left) this family of two parents and 4 children ages 6-17 abandoned their home, family, friends, and most importantly, safety, to travel to another country, oceans away, to preach the gospel.

"Organized religion" sent this family. Without a church body behind the mission, it would've been financially impossible to carry it out. Sure, you can say, this was all done for profit, or publicity. How many people will bring their family from a comfortable suburban home to live a one room apartment, in a foreign nation, who's looking for people just like you to arrest? Sounds like a great opportunity in the rake in that cash.

The looks on their faces, as the congregation bid them farewell, was one of peace, purpose, and trust in Someone greater than them. From firsthand experience, I can tell you that instantly seeing this will truly change your opinion.

Just because there's been corrupt "churches" in history, by no means does that imply Christianity as a whole is the same. I hope that's obvious enough.

By the way, I don't think the Santa and Kitty analogies help your case a whole lot. Let's strive to have these arguments based on facts, not opinions. Example: "MUMBO JUMBO"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Answer to question about where I got the father is greater reference:

John 14:28

28 If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


Its sad perhaps when the Atheist knows the bible (New Testament and Old Testament) better, but, really, memorizing a book doesn't prove piety and not memorizing it doesn't mean you didn't love it, etc.

I read the bibles we had as a kid, some older as they'd been in the family, and later, some other versions, and, some sticks with me. I won't say I can quote chapter and verse, but, I do tend to remember "that I read a part about that.." and if I need to know where I read it, its a quick thumb through until I see it again.

I won't say I've always been an atheist per se, as, the way I remember it all, I heard about Santa, the first time I REMEMBER at about 3...and knew it was all pretend even then...I mean, the whole world in one night and presents down chimneys, by a FAT GUY? Really?

I don't actually remember going to church until I was maybe 4 or 5, I may have gone earlier, but I have no memory until then. I remember not really knowing WHY we were in this pretty fancy building and every one was singing and acting weird.

I think I was closer to 5 when I found out we were supposed to be worshiping (A new concept) god (Another new concept).

I instantly knew god was like Santa, and played along.

Strangely, some grownups didn't seem to catch on...they were really SERIOUS about this god thing. I wondered if maybe they knew something I was missing, or if THIS prank was simply even MORE deep.

So I decide to read the bible and study it like a school book. So I did, both testaments. Crap, it WAS a prank. BUT, this one had even gray haired stooped over grown men out with their gunny sacks trying to catch the darn snipe...until the day they died.

I read more, and then about other religions. Judaism was easy, same book, like a prerequisite to the next class. Islam was sort of a a shuffling together of the testaments, still pretty straight forward.

Some were a bit harder to pin down...but, they all shared some basic principles.

Exploring the principles lead to other entities that used the exact same techniques, like some multi-level marketing entities successfully use to teach their people how to recruit, etc.

Its always been about controlling the population and profiting from it. The first medicine man figured it out. After that, it spread like wildfire.

Say YOU can talk to the spirits/gods, etc...and YOU can act as an intermediary between your tribe/flock and the supernatural, and you never have to work again....well,, not in the same way at least.

When people were able to gather in larger groups (After agriculture, etc..), ONE medicine man could simply not do it all....so, the "family" helped with the business. This why back to the beginning of recorded history, the early ones in charge were a 'lineage". The Priests were a lineage just as the royalty were...and, they walked the primrose path hand in hand.

If the royalty need the people to do something for them w/o grumbling as much/needed and army to go kill some other group...the Priest's job was always to do some mumbo jumbo and get them riled up to do what their gods wanted them to.

So, before battle, there would be a show of rolling the bones, or burning and reading entrails, or whatever the schtick du jour was...and joyously declare that VICTORY IS ORDAINED!!!! Go' Get'm boys!

If they lost anyway...oops, that goat was found to have been allowed to eat some forbidden grass, and was not worthy for sacrifice...and it changed the results of the burned intestine forecast.

Later, they learned to say "It was god's will" and "The Lord works in mysterious ways" and other stock alibis for why their GOD seemed to be rooting for the OTHER side/they didn't get what they prayed for, etc.

After a while, the lineages of the priests became enormous. They breed like rabbits, with all they could eat and no hard labor or injuries, and, well, there would be TOO many after a while in one place.

So, they needed to expand...to cover new territories. And, to organize, because instead of it all going into the FAMILY kitty, there were now a lot of kitties, and, they'd get catty if they thought they were not getting their fair share.

Once organized, and, to fairly share the work, and, the ADMINISTRATION of the organization, they needed to have officers, ranks, duties, buildings (Eventually temples, etc).

As with most organizations...they had an objective. Money from the congregation. They worked out that being tied to the political entities meant they had official status...and, they started to tax (ask for donations) in set increments.

They also knew, again from the first medicine man...that the PRODUCT was the supernatural, and being recognized as how you connected to it.

HOW to convince people that that was the case was fine tuned, and honed to a razor sharp focus.

The Catholic Church INVENTED propaganda. They CALLED it propaganda, as they coined the phrase (From the Latin) in that context. NO ONE thought that it was a bad thing back then, it was a neutral term, a new term, and just meant to propagate the catholic teachings in the context used.

So, the idea that you can spread information that would sway people to your cause was not invented by the church....the idea of doing it as a planned campaign with long term goals, with the objective being conversion to the religion...rather than merely buying a product or joining an army....was.


So, religion goes way back....and, its pretty much the same thing:
appealing to people's spiritual sides, promising intervention with the supernatural, telling them ONLY THEY can intervene with the supernatural, and the OTHER'S who say they can are liars...

...and after that its mere specifics of what happens to you after your dead (Always something good if you believe THEM and something bad if you DON'T).

As MOST humans on the planet are pretty much convinced that there are ghosts, angels, demons, gods, etc...and can't deal with their lives JUST ENDING, , they are pretty desperate to believe that their choice in supernatural interventionist was correct...and, if someone, say, John, tells them that John chose a different supernatural interventionist, they will argue quite vehemently that NO! THEIR SI is the ONLY one, and, John better change his mind before its too late!

If John refuses, and insists HIS SI is the right one, and THEY better change THEIR mind before its too late...some weird thing kicks in where people who really really need an SI, feel TERRIFIED that maybe they DID pick the wrong one because someone else looked the same brochures, but picked a different one.

That means they have to kill them, because their SI says that other SI are committing blasphemy, which is punishable by death.

So both preach love and tolerance, and doing for others as you'd have them do for you, or a variation on that theme (Very popular theme, appeals to people's sense of fairness...), and also to kill those that use a different SI, or, say you picked the wrong SI.


That's organized religion. Supernatural Intervention.

If you don't believe in the SUPERnatural, just the natural, well, ALL the SI freakout, as that's ONE thing they can ALL agree would be a disastrous trend for the SI industry.

The supernatural industrial complex (sic) jealously protects its business interests. A trend away from believing in the supernatural is the sort of thing a strong propaganda campaign is needed to counteract, and funding anything that promotes the idea that the supernatural exists becomes a priority.




Some of the above is a bit tongue in cheek obviously, but, it represents the distillation of what I have read from the bibles and historical records of many cultures and societies...as a concept.

IE: Don't say dumb stuff about me lying about there being a SIC, I just made the term up a few minutes ago, etc. I like it though, it seems fitting.












Part of the problem is that we do have evidence that Jesus existed, several hundred years before "Christianity" did, if you review the documentation, including the dead sea scrolls for example.

So, I am convinced that Jesus existed, there is enough historical evidence of it, except, he was not the Jesus portrayed in the bible, he was a rebel fighting the Romans.

The Romans needed to get these PITA JEWS under control. As organized religions are organized for one purpose, and one purpose alone, political strength, in the original meaning of the term, the idea to CHANGE to FOCUS of the Jews who were fighting the Romans into Christians who would be taught that they should be MEEK and turn the other cheek, and spread love and NOT FIGHT THE ROMANS, was hatched.

They used the same strategy to tame the barbarian hordes to the north, etc.

Overtime, it took off, and the Catholic Church was doing really really well.

(That's the "Political Party") They even have elections to pick who god chooses to represent man on earth. I was at the Vatican for one pope, and there was great excitement about black and white smoke and all that.

They essentially got things so well arranged that all royalty had to get their power from the POPE/God. That meant the Pope, as, for some reason, god was always busy...and never seemed to get personally involved. After a long time, the monarchs found out how to get around their power, and the clergy went back mostly to religious stuff, officially.

The catholic church's headaches mostly stem historically from the fact that they needed some sort of "Lineage" so that they could claim their line ran from Jesus. Unfortunately, there was no evidence of there being anyone Jesus said was to represent him while he was gone. If they had not waited roughly 300 years to start the process, it would have been easier to have an apostle, etc, say, oh, yeah, wait, it was ME, he said I was to be his representative...where's my hat? Does that come in white?

But, they didn't, and 300 years later, it was hard to create a fake trail. They did think to cover it by essentially saying anyone who questioned the lineage would be in deep supernatural doo doo, and that was anathema for most....so, if oyu don't have the proof, make it a crime to question whether there's proof. Easy peasy.

The splits came when some INSIDE the church would not STFU and cooperate anymore, and they split off and formed other christian groups who did not accept the Pope as their leader....and with no pope to punish them for protesting that he had no authority, they were free to practice their own version of Christianity.

Obviously, just like there are many kids who NEVER discover on their own that there's no Santa Claus, but grow up just fine, there are some really nice, non-political, and actually pious members of ALL religions. They actually follow the teachings for all the right reasons, even if not JUST so they don't want to fight the Romans.

So, my personal opinion is that religion is harmless in of itself, but ORGANIZED religion is the Devil.

The Devil is so clever though, that he convinces his minions that they are fighting for GOOD and not evil....and, has the troops on the ground winning hearts and minds with, for the most part, genuine good intent. (If THEY didn't believe, how could they convince their flocks?).

Minions do go south though, much to the detriment of choir boys, etc.


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Old 12-06-2014, 02:20 PM #3762
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Good/bad, knowledge/belief. Interesting pairs, you can paint the world with your own.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 12-06-2014, 02:31 PM #3763
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Answer to question about where I got the father is greater reference:

John 14:28

28 If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Before you quote any bible verse as proof, read about at least what situation or point in the bible this verse is written.

So at first you read this, and then John 10:30 which says "I and the Father are one".

Jackpot! Jesus is an idiot! He just contradicted himself in two of the gospels.

Right?

Wrong.

During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), which refers to Jesus’ status. The doctrine of the incarnation says that the second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Jesus was fully human and “made lower than the angels.” However, Jesus is fully divine, too. By taking on human nature, Jesus did not relinquish His divine nature—God cannot stop being God. How do we reconcile the fact that the second Person of the Trinity is fully divine yet fully human and by definition “lower than the angels”? The answer to that question can be found in Philippians 2:5-11. When the second Person of the Trinity took on human form, something amazing occurred. Christ “made himself nothing.” This phrase has generated more ink than almost any other phrase in the Bible. In essence, what it means is that Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes and subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth.

Therefore, the fact that the Son took on a human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father in no way denies the deity of the Son, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse, then, relates to role, not to essence.

This could go on and on but I don't think any of you want to listen.

There's almost an explanation for everything. However if you were to ask me to explain the trinity, I could try, but it would be a disgrace to something so astounding, amazing, and confounding as it. Some things are just above us, like I said, we love to think we're the center of existence.

How does it feel to know that you're like an ant before a human? That what we are before God.

Man's pride handicaps himself from understanding. Anything out of our control, is truly, truly, frightening. Thus, we try to eliminate it.

Just my two cents from what I've learned in my 15 years of life.

This will be my last post, as this is truly, truly time consuming. I wish you a good day gentleman, and hope you find contentment, understanding, and happiness, whatever and wherever it may be.

Just remember, to never stop seeking the truth. That's ultimately what we all should strive for, just like what shakenwake said.
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Old 12-06-2014, 03:53 PM #3764
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Before you quote any bible verse as proof, read about at least what situation or point in the bible this verse is written.

So at first you read this, and then John 10:30 which says "I and the Father are one".

Jackpot! Jesus is an idiot! He just contradicted himself in two of the gospels.

Right?

Wrong.

During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), which refers to Jesus’ status. The doctrine of the incarnation says that the second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Jesus was fully human and “made lower than the angels.” However, Jesus is fully divine, too. By taking on human nature, Jesus did not relinquish His divine nature—God cannot stop being God. How do we reconcile the fact that the second Person of the Trinity is fully divine yet fully human and by definition “lower than the angels”? The answer to that question can be found in Philippians 2:5-11. When the second Person of the Trinity took on human form, something amazing occurred. Christ “made himself nothing.” This phrase has generated more ink than almost any other phrase in the Bible. In essence, what it means is that Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes and subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth.

Therefore, the fact that the Son took on a human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father in no way denies the deity of the Son, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse, then, relates to role, not to essence.

This could go on and on but I don't think any of you want to listen.

There's almost an explanation for everything. However if you were to ask me to explain the trinity, I could try, but it would be a disgrace to something so astounding, amazing, and confounding as it. Some things are just above us, like I said, we love to think we're the center of existence.

How does it feel to know that you're like an ant before a human? That what we are before God.

Man's pride handicaps himself from understanding. Anything out of our control, is truly, truly, frightening. Thus, we try to eliminate it.

Just my two cents from what I've learned in my 15 years of life.

This will be my last post, as this is truly, truly time consuming. I wish you a good day gentleman, and hope you find contentment, understanding, and happiness, whatever and wherever it may be.

Just remember, to never stop seeking the truth. That's ultimately what we all should strive for, just like what shakenwake said.
So why did he SAY it?

There's no A=B=C either. I never said all Christians, or all Jews, or all Stamp Collectors have the same beliefs. I said the ORGANIZATION that TELLS THEM WHAT TO BELIEVE IF THEY ARE A MEMBER, essentially tells them what to believe (To be a member).

The organization is the issue, not the believers in it.

Humans pretty much ALL have their OWN beliefs, and, those they feel they SHOULD have "Because they are a ______"

So, I know a lot of people, and, its possible that its not a representative sample of the entire planet, etc...but, no matter WHAT religion they are a member of, they essentially pick and choose what THEY believe, from the larger sets, and make up their own sub-set of beliefs.

So, for example, if a person (examples of people I know) is "A Good Catholic", they know, they are supposed to breed like mad and make a lot of new Catholics...because that's what is required of membership in that organization.

They might enjoy relations with their spouse, but, not be able to afford MORE BABIES. They'd use a condom if "allowed", but, wasting potential Catholics is against Catholic rules, so, they either must forgo a large part of why people marry and what helps to keep couples together (abstain/rhythm, etc..), or, use a condom anyway.

Many say things along the lines of, if the priest will pay to raise them, I'll have more. Until then, We're "Good Catholics, but we're using birth control".

The bible says lots of things that modern people choose to ignore, including to work hard for your masters/be good slaves, stone children (TO DEATH) who talk back (A NEW AND old testament speaking there...), don't masturbate/spill thy seed upon the ground, don't suffer homo's to live, and so forth.

So, some people read it all over/hear the sermons, and essentially do a filtering process that says something like:

OK - this is absurd, and must be meant as a moral lesson rather than a literal description, the way a children's story with a moral, or to inspire, is written...because snakes can't talk, and, if they did, who was there to record what was said, etc?

WHO wrote down the words in Genesis?

WROTE. As in the first time it was WRITTEN.

WHO was THERE, and, was also able to WRITE?

WHO was spoken to by GOD, and took that dictation, and why would THAT not be an important historical and religiously significant fact?

OK, OBVIOUSLY, its a story to explain how we got here....me, first in god's image, and then a spare rib. That's silly, why a spare rib?

Oh, right, most woman have another rib, so, its a way for the priests to say, SEE?, there IS proof that the rib was taken!

In the ORIGINAL versions (Old testament), Adam and Eve have three boys, and, humanity is breed from that starting point.

In the NEW testament, the ick/incest factor was smoothed over a little bit by adding a snippet that there were more kids after those three...including daughters....so at least the incest could be not mom and sons alone, etc.

OK, so there's editing going on...some stuff was ADDED in the new testament that was not in the old testament, and, WHERE WOULD THAT HAVE COME FROM?

OBVIOUSLY, as it was PEOPLE writing the bible...even the 10 commandments had to be hand chipped and not hewn by god herself, etc...so, as all that was known about "The Beginning" was handed down TO the people in the church writing it down...it came from THEM.

OK, kids have to read this, so, I guess they had to edit it to avoid a lot of incest issues, as most kids would not figure out the incest part as quickly, as the concept is too far off yet.

And the ark thing, I mean, would the 500 year old Noah have to invent a way to get miles under the oceans that were on the other side of the world that his side didn't even know existed yet, and collect deep sea creatures they didn't know existed yet?

That's insane, of course not. Of course, even a flood that killed all the fish anyway is a bit simple minded...so, it still fits with the primitive times, and them not knowing what they didn't know, etc...

And if the bible had not been SO specific that EVERYTHING was killed, I could argue that, ok, there was a flood in that part of the middle east maybe...but too many cultures have stories about this sort of thing, but, WHEN their floods, and our flood happened, doesn't work at all...so, obviously, they just borrowed the story...as the concept had been well received over the millennia.

So, my bible is not the literal word of god, because its been edited...and is totally absurd in a modern light....but, the idea of NOT being A Good Catholic would break my parent's hearts, and I want to raise my kids Catholic, so, I'll just play along.


The need for bible interpretation to go to extreme lengths to find ways to make the stories make any sense at all is painful to watch.

If they would just admit they are stories and stop trying to pretend/convince others that Noah went to the bottom of the ocean, or wherever across and under the crust of the planet, etc, ALL the creatures would be, and collected samples of sulfur stack microorganisms miles down at temperatures that would boil if not for the tremendous pressure, lantern fish, giant squid and sperm whales, and minke whales, and narwhals and humpbacked whales and blue whales and dolphins and porpoises and blue fin tuna and yellow finned tuna and great white sharks and whale sharks and piranhas and archer fish and coelacanths, and Indian Elephants and African elephants and Siberian tigers and panda bears and kola bears and army ants and carpenter ants and honey bees and african killer bees and radiolarians and ambeba and paramecium, and stachybotrys and aspergillus niger and portobello mushrooms, and pterodactyls and plesiosours, and triceratops and slime molds and so forth...and put ALL of them into a boat that was large enough to hold them, what they eat/drink, the pressure and temperature they need to be held at to survive, the amount of fresh and or salt water they need to be immersed in to breath/live, and so forth, its just not possible by any stretch of a reasonable person's imagination.

Oh, wait, Noah ALSO knew how to tell a male squid from a female squid and a male piranha from a female piranha, and a male Praying Mantis From a female Praying Mantis, or Mantis Shrimp? etc?
Luckily, Noah was a microbiologist,a zoologist, a virologist, an arborist, and a bathyscaphe designer, could make multiple high pressure and temperature chambers to house organisms that lived in hot and deep places, etc...he was a real Renaissance Man.

A cubit is roughly 18"....add it up....its PHYSICALLY impossible. You need to get the fat man down the chimney of every house on the planet in one night with presents the elves made, driving his flying reindeer...and fit all the whales and other creatures and plants, and what they eat, into their INDIVIDUAL assorted high temperature/pressure tanks and equipment to run them, and then, by pressing his thumb to his nose or whatever, it all magically happens.



Of course, if you, for example, lived in, say, the middle east, or, say, Rome, and had never seen a whale in real life, and did not know there WERE other parts of the world (You could, it was described, climb a high enough mountain, and see the entire world from there...to the far reaches....in the bible)...you might know of a few animals and plants, do some quick math, and come to a simplistic conclusion and say, yeah, that aught to be plenty of room!



That's far more likely than a supreme supernatural all knowing all seeing power essentially telling what wood to use, and the exact dimensions needed, but not how to get several miles beneath the ocean and collect samples from ~ 300 - 400 CELSIUS water under almost 400 times atmospheric pressure, a pressure that would crush even modern submarines?

If he DIDN'T KNOW that there were all these things out there...sure, he would NOT include THOSE details.

So, he DID NOT KNOW, or, we get back to magic.

He told NOAH to gather the animals. If, instead, he said, wait here, I want you to captain this boat and then repopulate the world with ye more incest, after I stop the flooding, at least it would make sense in the CONTEXT.

But, no, he gives great detail on how to build a primitive boat, which any ship-maker at that primitive time could have done, there's no new technology there...IE: Tell man how to do something he didn't NEED help with, and DOESN'T tell him how to collect giant squid and sperm whales and so forth?

If I were that 500 year old man being tasked with this, I'd be like, whoa, I can build the boat, can YOU get the critters and stuff?



On another note...The devil is portrayed as who god is fighting with for control of the earth. Its laid out that the devil (Satan, etc) will attack, and there will be a final battle.

Um, doesn't that mean, for all intents and purposes, that there is another god, and, that he's evil?

So, we have the father, the son, the holy spirit and the devil. They are either the same being in different forms, or, there's one god in three forms...and one god in one form, or one god with schizophrenia, telling his followers that HE will be attacking the earth for control from himself.

So, sure, the mythology says Satan is a fallen angel...but, when did he get created as an angel, so he could "FALL", and, who made the snake talk to eve?

Why does an "Angel" get to fight with god? Did god MAKE angels? Can't he kill them? He'd smash a baby's head against a rock if the babies parents' were on the wrong side, but he allows ANOTHER of his CREATIONS to openly declare war on him and to fight him for millennia?

When DID god create angels? It fails to mention that unless you consider that part of the heavens....but some things get mentioned as created quite specifically, like apples, and, birds....you'd think ANGELS would have been a big deal?

Oh yeah, I also made some of these immortal supernatural beings so powerful I can't even kill them, or, I have some "mysterious reason" for having a rival, even though I spend the rest of the bible wiping out anyone who DOESN'T WORSHIP ME?!

Yeah, I CREATED them, but, they went bad and fell...oh, wait, that means I screwed up, OK, I made them to be good and then fail because a story without an antagonist is far less compelling.

People are never so nationalistic as when they must all be on the same side to defeat a common foe.

OK, we need a foe...and, they must be somehow powerful enough that they represent a threat, but, weak enough so if we all clap our hands and say we believe, we can beat them!

But how to JUSTIFY that I would ALLOW such a thing?

hmmmm, I know, I'll subtly imply that I want to TEST YOU! That's IT (I'm so omniscient, I just love it!) THAT way, you'll see me as labeling you as unworthy sinners, but loving you anyway, but, you have to PROVE IT TO ME, so, I test you.

OK, OK, some good tests...ah, you have to kill your own child if I ask...that's always a good one. And, TEMPTATION!!!! Everyone will be TEMPTED to stray from me, so, I just say anytime they are being tempted, its this devil fellow...and they have to choose me, or him.

Throw in some parables about other's being tested...what a job that would be....oh, wait, JOB! Not so bad...ok, we GOT this.





And, to come back to this:

Man's pride handicaps himself from understanding. Anything out of our control, is truly, truly, frightening. Thus, we try to eliminate it.

Just my two cents from what I've learned in my 15 years of life.



I think we are saying the same thing, except you eliminate the problem by saying anything you don't understand must therefore be because of supernatural forces...but don't want to explore the potential supernatural forces, just accept what you're told about them, and stand pat, satisfied that that covers it....

...and I eliminate the problem by trying to find ALL the potential explanations, and, if something I'm TOLD doesn't make sense, I would put it to the side for verification. If other explanations made more sense, I'd go with those.

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Old 12-06-2014, 09:17 PM #3765
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

why is it that when families today interbreed their offspring suffer genetic problems, yet the bible claims that all of humanity arose from a single family...twice?

how did that one family become all the different races we see today in just a few thousand years?

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Old 12-07-2014, 12:16 PM #3766
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
why is it that when families today interbreed their offspring suffer genetic problems, yet the bible claims that all of humanity arose from a single family...twice?

how did that one family become all the different races we see today in just a few thousand years?

Inbreeding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I think there's also been some calculations done of how many years it was to the time that the pyramids were built, etc, and how there wasn't time to breed all the people, from Noah's ark to the Egyptian period either, and so forth.

Its always amazing to me how stubbornly some people will cling to a concept that is truly impossible to accept with a reasonable degree of logic, by applying faulty logic and any argument that even sounds as though it counters the real logic.

Their book for example, will contain impossibilities and conflicts, obvious edits, etc, but, it ALSO SAYS that it is perfect, never edited, and, has no conflicts, and, the church says questioning the story is punishable by death.

If I'm the god or peace and love, and I want people to believe in me (For some bizarre reason, being believed in is THE top priority of supreme all knowing all seeing beings who have planned everyone's life from birth to death?)...but, in a way that allows for my followers to convert others at the pain of death? TO torture them until they say the believe in me? To want non-believers killed?

What?

So, in context, the first book (Testament) is the one that came first, and states how the world, etc, started. It was written by people who lived in a much more primitive time, by a much more militant horde of barbarians if you will.

The Jews were fighters. There bible has a lot of fighting, and, the words sound similar to Conan the Barbarian's, etc...messy, gory, victory and vengeance, etc.

IE: You won MORE/your cause was more righteous, if the victory was absolute. Remember that back then, the word "decimate" meant to kill 1 out of 10 of the enemy, and that was considered to have been about as an overwhelming victory as you'd normally see, as actually KILLING someone, in battle, back then, required you to stick a piece of sharp metal into them enough times and in good enough places, before they could do the same to you...and it was NOT EASY to do that in real life.

To kill ALL of them, even their woman and children (Who would other wise growth up thinking of one thing, killing YOU and YOUR family), WAS the absolute victory, and a god that gave you that sort of power was therefore MORE worthy of worship, as there were RESULTS! In times when a lot ot prayers to gods were for victory in battle, a god that GAVE victory in battle was the one to go with.


The second book (Testament) was mostly written to inspire people to shut up and stick it out, to not fight/rebel, as they would be rewarded in the next life, for being subservient in this life.



So, the tree of KNOWLEDGE is the reason that humans were cursed with the original sin.

IE: If you remain ignorant, and never question anything, you will be naked and happy in paradise. If you want knowledge, your life will be miserable and hard. Ignorance is desirable over knowledge.



But, if a god that had a plan for a talking snake and a plan for Eve and a plan for Adam, and a plan TO HAVE A TREE OF KNOWLEDGE in a garden of Eden, and, who JUST MADE ALL OF THEM, so that all of them were made by him, with a plan by him, and then DIDN'T do what he wanted (Huh?), he punished them and kicked them out.

OK, he has a plan for them, plants talking snakes DESIGNED TO MAKE THEM OBTAIN KNOWLEDGE and the one thing he didn't want them to have, KNOWLEDGE, and tells them they can't have KNOWLEDGE...

...and then the talking snake he designed to trick them (Because they are ignorant?) into getting knowledge, tricks them into getting knowledge, and, he holds THEM responsible for not going against the plan he made?

What?

On the job, we call that setting someone up for failure.


Some management styles, popular in the middle east coincidentally, include the idea that if your employees are constantly told they are not doing a good job, they will work harder to please you. IE: A guy is due for his annual review, and is expecting a raise, and is instead told they they are considering firing him. So, instead of negotiating for a raise, he's begging to keep his job. This historically worked best with slavery, as, you could not quit and find a better master. In modern times, when people COULD quit, the practice is far less effective, and merely kills morale/increases turn-over....BUT, the people you DO keep will tend to be those with low self esteem, who will do your bidding because you convinced them that no one else would hire them because they are so bad (YOU and ONLY YOU love them despite their deep flaws, and you will keep them on, not because they are worthy, but because you care about them and know that no one else would have them...)



If you sell salvation from sin, you need people to sin. The BEST way to do that is to simply say that your ancestors sinned, and, therefore, all born afterwards are already sinners (No silly arguments about "But I didn't do anything wrong!)...so, you all sinned already, and you need salvation.

You also have to invent "sin".

So, you invent sins, invent a reason for newborn babies to have committed them, so you guarantee a source of original sin from conception, plus those who were born, and then follow human nature and commit new sins - and, then, sell them all the "cure".



The excuses are typically about "testing people", but, if your life was already planned out, what's to test? God makes a plan, but doesn't know if it will work or not? So he has to test it?

Or, god and the devil are simply the 4th manifestation of god, and, god is simply as cruel and vindictive and jealous as portrayed, and NOT a god of peace and love, but, of a simple driving force to believed in?

If you PLAN for a person to crash and burn, did they fail, or simply follow your plan? IE: When they plan a mission to crash a ship into the moon or another celestial body...so that the crash will stir up dust they can analyze, did the ship fail because it crashed, or, did we plan to crash it, for our own reasons, so when it crashed, it was OUR success?

Did we then BLAME it for crashing? It failed? It sinned?

Now, NASA did not KNOW what dust would be stirred up...that's WHY they needed to TEST. If NASA was all knowing and all seeing, etc...and had the plan for everything, there's no NEED to "test", as you already have the answers.

At that point, if you MAKE it to sin, it better sin, or YOU failed.

So, all arguments for testing are as valid as saying the kid was pulling the wings off of flies because he loved them, and wanted them to learn what it was like to suffer/die a slow horrible death, etc.

Ironically, MOST of the "tests" were to test ONE THING...DO THEY BELIEVE IN THAT GOD.

Story after story about how so and so "kept the faith" despite it looking like they had been abandoned....so that people that were abandoned would be inspired to believe anyway...no matter what. (This is only NEEDED of course when prayers are not answered. If you actually answer prayers, they would not feel abandoned in the first place/need a story to inspire them to keep believing in you.)


So, why the need to be believed in, and, why just people?

And why were there a "chosen people", and, why would you, if you BELIEVED in the first place, would you choose a different religion than GOD chose?

Jesus died Jewish (Last supper = Passover, etc...). He was a rabbi, and leader of a Jewish militant group fighting the Romans. FOLLOWERS of Jesus were Jewish. The disciples were Jewish.

The worshipers of the Jewish rebel were convinced, many years after his death, that what Jesus taught was not to fight against the Romans, but to spread peace and love and subservience to your masters....be meek and humble and wait until you're dead to be rewarded for it.

This was later organized into a "religion", and formalized, and incorporated Roman principles, and objectives. The Vatican being in Rome was no coincidence. The killing of the "Christians"/Jewish rebels and revolution, etc, seemed to calm shortly thereafter...replaced by Rome/Vatican eventually, taking over and running the religion.

They then re-wrote history as the victors tend to do.


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Old 12-07-2014, 06:49 PM #3767
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Muslim Who Raped 13 Year Old UK Girl Spared Jail Because ?He Didn?t Know It Was Wrong? | FrontPage Magazine

?25 MORE SHOCKING ARRESTS?: Pastors Charged With *** Crimes | Awkward Moments (Not Found In Your Average) Children's Bible

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Old 12-07-2014, 07:32 PM #3768
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

Christians who have things pointed out that are IN CONFLICT, are taught (some very vigorously, such as Jesuits), to counter by saying things are out of CONTEXT.

However, their accusations of the conflict being out of context are always out of context.

For example, WHY would someone more or less say something like "I go to the version of my self I call my father, for that version of my self is greater than this version of myself, because, for some bizarre reason, I have, as a the supreme ruler of the universe, and being all powerful and all knowing, decided in the very beginning to create a talking snake to convince ignorant people who'd just been born/created by me, to make the ignorant want knowledge...

...and I made the snake convincing enough to convince them, and I made them ignorant enough to be fooled, and, then, I BLAMED them for being tricked by an all powerful all seeing being that created them, and the snake, and the tree of knowledge that I put right where the snake could convince them...

...and, because THEY WERE TRICKED BY ME, I called that their original SIN....so, they, and all of their descendents were now SINNERS....

...and, NOW, I decided to come to earth in human form to show these people that I will be subservient for a higher purpose, and, that my act will absolve them of the sin I made them commit in the first place....sort of. You're ALL STILL SINNERS ANYWAY, sorry.

That's the CONTEXT.


IE: If he said, I will return to being god, or, I will return to heaven, or, I will do about anything but "return to my self" it would at least make some sense.

HIM DYING TO UNDO WHAT HE DID IN THE FIRST PLACE IS A BIT OF A STRETCH.

Him dying so there's be world peace would have been OK, but, the CHURCH making up lies about the Muslims killing Christians and send CRUSADERS to murder men, woman and children in the middle east...seems like evidence it didn't work.

That is was lies is history, not opinion btw. ONLY those who simply can't accept the church doing ANYTHING wrong pretend/fool themselves about that.

If the Church had NOT attacked the middle east and purposefully MURDERED so many innocent people, the middle east would be the mess its in today.

Back then, everyone got along essentially, there was trade, political dialogue, etc. After the FIRST crusade, which the church won because the muslims never knew what hit them...they could not fathom why they were attacked...

...the second crusade and onwards were all dismal failures, and they got whooped badly. (They now knew the crazies from the church were coming, and could gather forces to stop them).

So, now the history is that the Muslims, especially those who had seen the slaughter of their families by the Crusaders, pretty much didn't love Christianity...and instead of wiping out Islam and spreading the gospel, the well was poisoned, and it was filled instead with hatred.

After a few thousand years more, things sort of cooled off, but, when Britain etc, gave the world Israel and a set of geographical boundaries that didn't have the weight of reason behind them...the middle east was once again destabilized, and, the old hatreds fanned to a white hot intensity.

Genetically, the Jews and Palestinians for example were found to be the same people. They chose different religions over time, but, its the same people.

The problem was that both groups, being the same people, felt they both had ownership of the land. Each knew THEY came from there originally...but, saw the others as NOT being from there.

Jews had always lived in Palestine/Jerusalem, and, so had Palestinians.

Instead of making it some sort of interfaith holy land, as Jews, Christians and Muslims all considered it holy, Jews ended up owning it by proclamation (Via England, etc)...and, Holy Shiite, did THAT not go over well!

So, we have THREE sects of religions that ALL essentially say not to tolerate infidels. When all three could live in harmony....and no one "owned it", all three got along, and the whole "kill the other guys" stuff in all three of their teachings were ignored.

When given to Israel, well, now there were infidels on holy ground, and the INFIDELS were the one's in charge.

MOST were OK with it, as the Israelis did not restrict access or comings or goings...harmony was still in play.

But, as MOST ≠ ALL, some fundamentalists decided to kill some infidels, and, just like here when someone flies a plane into a building on purpose to kill Americans, Americans start tightening up security....

...and that's what Israel did too. So, now some access WAS more limited, and, that set off more protests, and that started that big dirty snowball rolling that rolls to this day.


Teaching that darn snake to TALK was a bad idea, sorry.

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Old 12-07-2014, 07:41 PM #3769
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Once I see a religion which holds its members to be above its dogmas or more important than the organization itself, that is when I will begin to have faith in them. I don't believe in religion, I believe in our innate spiritual connection to something wonderful which religions won't touch, it takes too much power from them as they too often pretend to be the only path to God when the reality is, we ourselves are that path. In effect, I see religions as organizations which turn people away from God looking to their organizations as the way to Gods love when they aren't.

This is our world today; We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and our banks destroy the economy.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:54 PM #3770
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

As disturbing as this article is sadly its not uncommon in the U.K. If this disgusting man's defense was this is what his religion taught him that raping a child is an acceptable thing to do then problem isn't Islamic fundamentalist, the problem is the fundamentals of Islam.

It sickens me that the UK regularly gives special treatment to its Muslim citizens out of fear of repercussions.
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:00 AM #3771
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Most societies do not consider that an adequate excuse.

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:17 AM #3772
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Most societies do not consider that an adequate excuse.

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I thought it was really strange. This is also only one of many cases. Cultural upbringing and religion should only excuse one so far, especially if one has made a choice to live in another country and someone else's rights and well being have been compromised.

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Old 12-08-2014, 01:22 PM #3773
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
I thought it was really strange. This is also only one of many cases. Cultural upbringing and religion should only excuse one so far, especially if one has made a choice to live in another country and someone else's rights and well being have been compromised.

~ LB
Sometimes, rulings are not about the CASE, they are about the politics of the topic.

If the court is more worried about a riot that might occur if the disenfranchised factor of their population considers the ruling to not be in their favor.

In the USA, they faced (face) similar ruling concerns. A member of the disenfranchised faction is unarmed, but killed by police...every day for the most part...until ONE of those makes the claim that the unarmed victim was killed BECAUSE they were a member of that disenfranchised faction.

So, if it goes to court, and a jury sees the evidence, hears the testimony, and is convinced the police reacted to a threat in an appropriate fashion, and didn't do anything wrong, and declares the officer(s) not guilty, the disenfranchised faction makes the assumption that it was fixed/the jury was wrong, and, that they cannot get justice, and the police have declared open season on them, and they riot in protest/and/or because they need a new TV, etc.

Similarly, if the same thing happens and the disenfranchised being prosecuted is found not guilty of doing the killing, the police and members of the franchised faction(s) ALSO assume that it was fixed/the jury was wrong, and, that they cannot get justice, and the police cannot protect them...etc. They typically do not riot about it though, as they are already franchised and do have something to lose and hope for their futures. So the franchised tend to react by demanding reforms to the establishment that allowed this travesty of justice to transpire, because they CAN...by working within the system.

This is the conformational bias that was discussed a few times in earlier posts by those here who are familiar with this sort of thing.

In court cases, it implies that we do not need to waste taxes on judges and lawyers and courts, and transcripts and evidence vaults or evidence, etc.

It implies that all we need is to read the newspaper/news service posts, and see what the news said happened....and, do what we do anyway, and each decide that the party we identify with was obviously unjustly accused/persecuted by the parties we do not identify with.

Once the trial by media is completed, who ever's side has the most people believing guilt/innocence gets that verdict for their identified choice. This plays nicely to the hands of the majority of course, with the only disadvantage to them being a higher degree of apathy, while also being more likely to have internet access, more members, etc.

But that's what we do anyway lately, except it doesn't change the ruling.

Well, except for when it does.

Fear of reprisals can be fear of internal reprisals (A prosecutors office works with the police everyday, and, convicting/inditing an officer for example could be disastrous to a position that is voted for by the police, etc), or of external reprisals, such as riots, etc. (For publicly voted positions).

Those two fears tend to be counterpoised in many cases...so, its a constant balancing act.

So, much like religion, once you are assigned "a team", you tend to see everything from the team perspective...dismiss evidence that doesn't support that view, and automatically accept any evidence that does support that view.
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:26 PM #3774
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@Teej:

Interesting that you bring up confirmational bias in regards to the current state of affairs here in the US. We just had a bunch of CHP cars burned in Berkeley across the bridge here, last night.

Both situations have each side feeling that they are correct and interpret the information at hand to justify their argument

I also see the political tightrope that involved parties may face when in court, that you pointed out.

The cases in the UK, besides grooming and rape of minors also included *** trafficking. Global politics probably coming into play, as well as a larger "religious" community threatening everything from be-headings and bombing to nuclear attacks. Different or the same as a single unarmed man (with a history of violence) being shot by a smaller probably paranoid officer of the Law.

I don't mean to offend, but the suspect in Ferguson wasn't some innocent little kid as some of the media try to portray him. I'm sure some Cops here are paranoid if not outright scared, in the course of their day. This is just their job, and they don't want to get killed just doing their job.

No, I don't feel all is right in regards to that case in Ferguson, but I wasn't in the officer's shoes and perhaps just like the Muslims in the UK, the Police and Law Enforcement also have a culture and perspective that IS different from the rest of us. Right or Wrong.

(I'm surprised that Berkeley erupted last night) Comedian Chris Rock recently said that everyone will just tweet about Ferguson for three days and go back to their everyday lives. Isn't happening that way.

Going back to the UK. Is it religion or cultural perspective. Are they inter-changeable? With Muslim countries, Religion is the Politics and Law of the land. Actually sounds like what the Fundamentalists here in the US would like to institute.

~ LB
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:33 PM #3775
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This is a bit of as aside, but part of the reason Ferguson is not dying down, is because of the Garner case, and where people were divided on Brown given conflicting testimony, and evidence, there is no division on the Garner case. The video is there for all to see, and apparently there were two more of them. Yet still, nothing happened to the cop... no indictment on even lesser charges of manslaughter or negligent homicide, and every single one of the other cops that stood by and watched, and "helped" was given immunity to testify.

So yeah, people are pissed. They are wondering what good it does having a camera, when even with the evidence on camera there is no justice.

They are starting to wake up to the fact that policing, and the judiciary suffer from systemic deficiencies, and often outright corruption, due to both being for profit.

They are finally waking up to the fact that the judicial process itself can be a punishment employed by cops.

That grand juries are too often just a way for prosecutors to avoid having to take on cases they don't want.

That cops lie, and cannot be trusted anymore than anyone else.

That cops are granted immense powers that often now days run completely contrary to our bill of rights, and will face little if any consequences for misconduct.

That cops cannot police themselves.

[/rant]

Back to our regularly scheduled programming. All hail our lord and savior Cthulhu.

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Old 12-08-2014, 05:50 PM #3776
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@InfiniteEquity

Yeah, the video was pretty damning evidence. The Cops looked tiny on that guy. I think they are taught too use an overwhelming amount of force whenever possible to avoid harm to themselves. No one wants to get hurt "in the line of Duty". There is also I think a culture of Superiority, with LE and Mil. "Us and the Civilians".




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