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Old 12-05-2014, 11:56 AM #3745
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
In the big picture what does believing that pirticular story matter? You can argue evolution all day but when it comes down to following Christ day to day actions and the way we treat others shouldn't be affected by it.
I agree. If you don't use the bible as a resource for factual information, math, history, geology, astronomy, etc, or how to treat those different from you, etc, and just follow the teachings as to behavior, filtering out the obvious primitive societal requirements to stone your children to death if they talk back, or murdering those who don't believe as you do, etc...and focus on the love, compassion and tolerance, humanity would benefit immensely.

For example, the bible and the Koran both have some pretty serious requirements as to what to do with those who talk back, commit blasphemy, etc. (Death typically) The difference is that we have had more centuries to apply reason and compassion and forgiveness to what is written, and simply NOT follow EVERYTHING written, as we know/feel that even though its in the bible, its WRONG. In the middle east, etc...they have had less time to do this, and THEY still follow THEIR writings more literally. The RESULT of following the writings LITERALLY, is that children are stoned to death, etc. Tough love doesn't mean stoning the children, we now feel (OK, most of the people I talk to...), that murdering your child for say, saying "NO! You're a Poo Poo Head!" when he doesn't want the strained peas, is a bit extreme.

In younger religions, it does come down to weeding out those who are strongly opposed to the strained peas, and selecting for those who shut up and eat them.




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Old 12-05-2014, 12:49 PM #3746
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Regarding the idea of the flood and creationist beliefs.
In every other area of a creationist life they deduce what is true or real by where the evidence leads. But when it comes to the age of the earth or the idea of a global flood, logic and reason is tossed aside for willful ignorance.
This acceptance of such a story taken as historical account is gullibility.

There are so many reasons to know this was myth and not an original one at that. I won't bother listing them.

This story is so extraordinary that for many young children's it is their first experience of questioning of the validity of the bible and what they are being taught. So why is that? Even young kids can realize how silly this story is and many denominations of Christianity no longer teach this as historical fact but as myth.

So for a grown adult to believe this story happened is a clear demonstration of willful ignorance.
They are choosing to accept this story first then looking for any way to spin reality to fit their needed belief.

In science and in life you accept what the observations and evidence points toward. There may be instances in life you have to use your gut feeling and guess but that's because their isn't any evidence present to help you decide what to accept or not. In creationism and the flood story it's accept first then look for anything that could possibly be molded and distorted into fitting the claim. I would have some respect for young earth creationist if they admitted what is so glaringly obvious.

That they really have no good reason to reject the science other than they feel they must because somehow it threatens them. People want so badly for something to be true that it doesn't matter what they see or learn. Nothing can get through their denialism.

People are free to bury their head in the sand and accept as fact flood myths and reject the known age of the earth. But because all the observations and all the data in all the sciences ALL points to the same thing, young earth creationists shouldn't pretend their ideas should be taken seriously by anyone. And honestly although they may dislike it they shouldn't be surprised when people laugh at these ideas.
It is the stuff children's books are made of. A creationist is so convinced that this is all very normal and rational that they have a real disconnect about the preposterousness of their ideas. I may not agree but I don't find a person believing in God as absurd. But a global flood or a young earth? Yes absolutely absurd.
Very good points.

If someone were to design a religion...and planned to use it as a political tool to manipulate the people, starting the entire process with instilling the belief that knowledge is power would NOT be wise. Instead, you would want to instill the belief that knowledge was BAD.

An ignorant populace is easier to manipulate. If the crowd realizes that the medicine man is using parlor tricks to make them think he has magic powers, magic powers bestowed upon him by supernatural forces of which HE is the sole medium for....he would lose that authority to tell them what to do in the name of those supernatural powers.

So "ignorance is bliss", eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE is BAD....etc, are the instilled dogma to keep them dumb.

To make SURE they keep quiet about noticing the card in the magicians sleeve, etc, they add stuff to make it punishable by DEATH to even QUESTION the authority, and, say that the authority can never be wrong, period, end of story, we kill you if you disagree.

So, just like in the middle east, china, etc...by making it a bad idea, health-wise, to even hint at your doubts about the authority, EVERYONE PRETENDS that they are 100% on board.

If a neighbor overhears you and your wife discussing how the Imam/Priest/Medicine Man is a poo poo head, or, maybe, gave a boring sermon, or, perhaps, said something that didn't make sense...the neighbor would be so terrified that THEY might be suspected of harboring similar thoughts, as they KNOW YOU, that they turn you in to protect them and their family.

So, everyone thinks every one ELSE is on board, and, its human nature to want to fit in....so, they put up and keep their mouth shut and eat the strained peace.



The problems with adding a lot of stuff that dumb people who are taught not to question authority or any information given to them by authority is at least two-fold:

1) Eventually, some WILL see the parlor tricks, and will complain about it so that ENOUGH of them at a time can see that they are not ALONE. THAT is what religions consider a cancer...very very dangerous.

2) It can stifle curiosity and new information, causing areas ruled by religious principles of that nature to stagnate, and, to be mired in whatever time period the religion sticks them in, like in Afghanistan, Pennsylvania, etc.


And all that leads to the dumb people stuck in the past sometimes noticing that on the other side of the curtain, there are wisps of more magic....cars, cell phones, things that seem to be able to FLY! And they wonder why THEY don't have those things.

Well...you could imagine how HARD it would be to keep your subjects ignorant if they had the internet....or books, or could read.

So, the authorities simply tell the populace that the outside world is an evil place, and that all in it will be going to hell, and that if any of them were to even THINK about checking it out, they would be murdered after a period of torture, and, so would their entire extended family.

People are naturally curious though, and even telling them that its at pain of death, or a painful death, SOME will STILL check it out.


So, We indoctrinate our children with the teachings of our society...and we can teach them to accept everything and eat the damn peas, or, to have an open mind.

SOME kids never question if there's a Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny. Ever. Eventually, they are TOLD about it....and, some, well, its very disillusioning for them. Others, take as a joke grown ups play on kids, and are happy to be on the grown ups side and "in the know".

Then its stuff like Noah's Ark...Its PRESENTED the same way as Santa Claus..."This Happened".

The difference is, no one TELLS them its a joke the grown ups tell the kids as a right of passage into adulthood.

A buddy of mine said he can tell how likely a kid will stop believing in the bible by the age at which he realizes there's no Santa w/o being told. The younger they are when they figure out that Santa makes no sense/the presents are the gifts of people, not god essentially, the more likely the kid is to figure out the rest doesn't make sense either.

So, the BIBLE doesn't say "this part is a parable borrowed from earlier creation myths almost verbatim", or, "This is a story borrowed from an earlier story and attributed to our protagonist, to build your respect and admiration, or empathy, or to teach an important moral" and "THIS part is real and actually happened".

It presents ALL of it as though it was a history book. So, what kids figure out it doesn't make sense, and, that the warnings that "Thinking it doesn't make sense is the DEVIL'S WORK!", don't make sense, and so forth...and what kids NEED TO BE TOLD THERE'S NO SANTA?

The answer is that there's an awful lot of kids who need to be told.

The quandary is that for these people, Santa is so comforting. Without Santa, they feel lost and scared and vulnerable. Its almost cruel to deprive them of their Santa.

Why do SOME OF US, feel compelled it seems to take away their Santa?

Why do some kids whisper in their younger brother or sister's ear, or their best friend's ear, etc, that they found out its mom and dad?

Its a delicious secret....and they want to share it....to share the knowledge.

If YOU BELIEVE in Santa, and it gives you great comfort and joy (Comfort and Joy Comfort and Joy!) and you want that for OTHERS, you spread the word. You travel to other continents and far away lands, you tell your friends, your neighbors this delicious secret....that SANTA will save you!

And there's REWARDS!!!! If Santa checks HIS LIST (Twice!) and sees that your are GOOD, you get PRESENTS! If you are BAD though, you are punished with BURNING of your present (COAL). So, be good and be rewarded, or, be bad, and be punished. (So you better be good!)







One pattern that seems to be present in terms of the hierarchy you mentioned, is the gradual reduction in supernatural beings a religion has.

I think it does reflect the gradual weaning process.

For example, the earliest religions were simply believing that EVERYTHING had "a spirit" and was connected to the supernatural. The individual trees and deer, fish, etc...were all considered to have these properties.

In greek or roman times, the beings that were immortal (deities) were many, but fewer than prior versions...and, they were formalized and organized, and children could say who's father or mother, or child a god was....and which god to pray to to get what done.

When Christianity was first organized a few hundred years after Jesus's death, they too still had a LOT of immortal supernatural beings....God, the Ghost, the Father, the Son, with some references having them be the same being in different forms (The way the greeks, etc, would have a god come to earth in another form, etc...), and other references to them NOT being the same (Jesus saying his father was greater than him, etc)....plus THE DEVIL, who god is fighting with for the possession of the earth (Why an ALL powerful ruler would not win that already is another mystery...), and angels, and, demons, and devils and Saints, and artifacts, and so forth.

Later religions further reduced the number of supernatural beings. Strangely, Judaism, which predated Christianity....has fewer supernatural beings, but, Christianity had to deal with the current proliferation among those in needed to convert. Jews still have angels, but one god, no forms of that god, and, no devil. On Judaism, I was camping with a jewish buddy, and he had a pump up Colman lantern...and warned me he forgot to bring more fuel, so, we'd have at most a few hours of light from it. Well, we got 3 nights of light from it. I said, that's a MIRACLE! Don't you guys have to make this a holiday now?

So, most of the remaining religions still have at least SOME other supernatural beings, such as angels...who are recruited by god, because, um, I don't know why exactly he would need help... but, it fits with the traditions of having some less threatening supernatural beings so the ignorant populace would be more accepting/have a less threatening entity to interact with. So, being able to pray to a Saint for example, or to Jesus's mother, instead of to Jesus, or his father...gives a hierarchy.

So, you would not want to burden GOD with your petty problems, but, say you've been arrested and there's a patron saint of thieves, you don't need to start at the top...you can start with the lower clerks, and if your cell mate is later making you face Gomorrah, you can THEN start screaming GOD! etc.


So, overtime, hopefully, we will, as a society, continue to drop Santa, the Easter Bunny, Angels, Devils, Demons, Fairies, Pixies, gods and goddesses, Saints, pieces of Saints, shrouds, etc, and, finally....realize there's no god either, he's simply part of the same mythos. The REASON the fundamentalists, campaign so strongly, and so desperately, is that their organizers KNOW that if ONE foundation stone is shown to be false, it casts doubt upon the other stones, and, like a house of cards up your sleeve, the entire edifice can come crashing down.

When you build a building that has no real foundation, and you use the facade to support the entire structure...erosion of the facade leads to catastrophic failure.

Once the old ruins have been cleaned up, perhaps preserved as an example of the ancient worship practices (Easter Bunny Island?), we can then have laws based upon logic, reason and fairness...and eliminate the need to kill those who believe differently....because we eliminate the thought police entirely. Children can get medical care because the parent's WON'T forbid it. Nations will not be at war over religion. (Soccer maybe....)

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Old 12-05-2014, 02:22 PM #3747
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Very good points.

If someone were to design a religion...and planned to use it as a political tool to manipulate the people, starting the entire process with instilling the belief that knowledge is power would NOT be wise. Instead, you would want to instill the belief that knowledge was BAD.

An ignorant populace is easier to manipulate. If the crowd realizes that the medicine man is using parlor tricks to make them think he has magic powers, magic powers bestowed upon him by supernatural forces of which HE is the sole medium for....he would lose that authority to tell them what to do in the name of those supernatural powers.

So "ignorance is bliss", eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE is BAD....etc, are the instilled dogma to keep them dumb.

To make SURE they keep quiet about noticing the card in the magicians sleeve, etc, they add stuff to make it punishable by DEATH to even QUESTION the authority, and, say that the authority can never be wrong, period, end of story, we kill you if you disagree.

So, just like in the middle east, china, etc...by making it a bad idea, health-wise, to even hint at your doubts about the authority, EVERYONE PRETENDS that they are 100% on board.

If a neighbor overhears you and your wife discussing how the Imam/Priest/Medicine Man is a poo poo head, or, maybe, gave a boring sermon, or, perhaps, said something that didn't make sense...the neighbor would be so terrified that THEY might be suspected of harboring similar thoughts, as they KNOW YOU, that they turn you in to protect them and their family.

So, everyone thinks every one ELSE is on board, and, its human nature to want to fit in....so, they put up and keep their mouth shut and eat the strained peace.



The problems with adding a lot of stuff that dumb people who are taught not to question authority or any information given to them by authority is at least two-fold:

1) Eventually, some WILL see the parlor tricks, and will complain about it so that ENOUGH of them at a time can see that they are not ALONE. THAT is what religions consider a cancer...very very dangerous.

2) It can stifle curiosity and new information, causing areas ruled by religious principles of that nature to stagnate, and, to be mired in whatever time period the religion sticks them in, like in Afghanistan, Pennsylvania, etc.


And all that leads to the dumb people stuck in the past sometimes noticing that on the other side of the curtain, there are wisps of more magic....cars, cell phones, things that seem to be able to FLY! And they wonder why THEY don't have those things.

Well...you could imagine how HARD it would be to keep your subjects ignorant if they had the internet....or books, or could read.

So, the authorities simply tell the populace that the outside world is an evil place, and that all in it will be going to hell, and that if any of them were to even THINK about checking it out, they would be murdered after a period of torture, and, so would their entire extended family.

People are naturally curious though, and even telling them that its at pain of death, or a painful death, SOME will STILL check it out.


So, We indoctrinate our children with the teachings of our society...and we can teach them to accept everything and eat the damn peas, or, to have an open mind.

SOME kids never question if there's a Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny. Ever. Eventually, they are TOLD about it....and, some, well, its very disillusioning for them. Others, take as a joke grown ups play on kids, and are happy to be on the grown ups side and "in the know".

Then its stuff like Noah's Ark...Its PRESENTED the same way as Santa Claus..."This Happened".

The difference is, no one TELLS them its a joke the grown ups tell the kids as a right of passage into adulthood.

A buddy of mine said he can tell how likely a kid will stop believing in the bible by the age at which he realizes there's no Santa w/o being told. The younger they are when they figure out that Santa makes no sense/the presents are the gifts of people, not god essentially, the more likely the kid is to figure out the rest doesn't make sense either.

So, the BIBLE doesn't say "this part is a parable borrowed from earlier creation myths almost verbatim", or, "This is a story borrowed from an earlier story and attributed to our protagonist, to build your respect and admiration, or empathy, or to teach an important moral" and "THIS part is real and actually happened".

It presents ALL of it as though it was a history book. So, what kids figure out it doesn't make sense, and, that the warnings that "Thinking it doesn't make sense is the DEVIL'S WORK!", don't make sense, and so forth...and what kids NEED TO BE TOLD THERE'S NO SANTA?

The answer is that there's an awful lot of kids who need to be told.

The quandary is that for these people, Santa is so comforting. Without Santa, they feel lost and scared and vulnerable. Its almost cruel to deprive them of their Santa.

Why do SOME OF US, feel compelled it seems to take away their Santa?

Why do some kids whisper in their younger brother or sister's ear, or their best friend's ear, etc, that they found out its mom and dad?

Its a delicious secret....and they want to share it....to share the knowledge.

If YOU BELIEVE in Santa, and it gives you great comfort and joy (Comfort and Joy Comfort and Joy!) and you want that for OTHERS, you spread the word. You travel to other continents and far away lands, you tell your friends, your neighbors this delicious secret....that SANTA will save you!

And there's REWARDS!!!! If Santa checks HIS LIST (Twice!) and sees that your are GOOD, you get PRESENTS! If you are BAD though, you are punished with BURNING of your present (COAL). So, be good and be rewarded, or, be bad, and be punished. (So you better be good!)







One pattern that seems to be present in terms of the hierarchy you mentioned, is the gradual reduction in supernatural beings a religion has.

I think it does reflect the gradual weaning process.

For example, the earliest religions were simply believing that EVERYTHING had "a spirit" and was connected to the supernatural. The individual trees and deer, fish, etc...were all considered to have these properties.

In greek or roman times, the beings that were immortal (deities) were many, but fewer than prior versions...and, they were formalized and organized, and children could say who's father or mother, or child a god was....and which god to pray to to get what done.

When Christianity was first organized a few hundred years after Jesus's death, they too still had a LOT of immortal supernatural beings....God, the Ghost, the Father, the Son, with some references having them be the same being in different forms (The way the greeks, etc, would have a god come to earth in another form, etc...), and other references to them NOT being the same (Jesus saying his father was greater than him, etc)....plus THE DEVIL, who god is fighting with for the possession of the earth (Why an ALL powerful ruler would not win that already is another mystery...), and angels, and, demons, and devils and Saints, and artifacts, and so forth.

Later religions further reduced the number of supernatural beings. Strangely, Judaism, which predated Christianity....has fewer supernatural beings, but, Christianity had to deal with the current proliferation among those in needed to convert. Jews still have angels, but one god, no forms of that god, and, no devil. On Judaism, I was camping with a jewish buddy, and he had a pump up Colman lantern...and warned me he forgot to bring more fuel, so, we'd have at most a few hours of light from it. Well, we got 3 nights of light from it. I said, that's a MIRACLE! Don't you guys have to make this a holiday now?

So, most of the remaining religions still have at least SOME other supernatural beings, such as angels...who are recruited by god, because, um, I don't know why exactly he would need help... but, it fits with the traditions of having some less threatening supernatural beings so the ignorant populace would be more accepting/have a less threatening entity to interact with. So, being able to pray to a Saint for example, or to Jesus's mother, instead of to Jesus, or his father...gives a hierarchy.

So, you would not want to burden GOD with your petty problems, but, say you've been arrested and there's a patron saint of thieves, you don't need to start at the top...you can start with the lower clerks, and if your cell mate is later making you face Gomorrah, you can THEN start screaming GOD! etc.


So, overtime, hopefully, we will, as a society, continue to drop Santa, the Easter Bunny, Angels, Devils, Demons, Fairies, Pixies, gods and goddesses, Saints, pieces of Saints, shrouds, etc, and, finally....realize there's no god either, he's simply part of the same mythos. The REASON the fundamentalists, campaign so strongly, and so desperately, is that their organizers KNOW that if ONE foundation stone is shown to be false, it casts doubt upon the other stones, and, like a house of cards up your sleeve, the entire edifice can come crashing down.

When you build a building that has no real foundation, and you use the facade to support the entire structure...erosion of the facade leads to catastrophic failure.

We can then have laws based upon logic, reason and fairness...and eliminate the need to kill those who believe differently....because we eliminate the thought police entirely. Children can get medical care because the parent's WON'T forbid it. Nations will not be at war over religion. (Soccer maybe....)
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:44 PM #3748
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I agree. If you don't use the bible as a resource for factual information, math, history, geology, astronomy, etc, or how to treat those different from you, etc, and just follow the teachings as to behavior, filtering out the obvious primitive societal requirements to stone your children to death if they talk back, or murdering those who don't believe as you do, etc...and focus on the love, compassion and tolerance, humanity would benefit immensely.

For example, the bible and the Koran both have some pretty serious requirements as to what to do with those who talk back, commit blasphemy, etc. (Death typically) The difference is that we have had more centuries to apply reason and compassion and forgiveness to what is written, and simply NOT follow EVERYTHING written, as we know/feel that even though its in the bible, its WRONG. In the middle east, etc...they have had less time to do this, and THEY still follow THEIR writings more literally. The RESULT of following the writings LITERALLY, is that children are stoned to death, etc. Tough love doesn't mean stoning the children, we now feel (OK, most of the people I talk to...), that murdering your child for say, saying "NO! You're a Poo Poo Head!" when he doesn't want the strained peas, is a bit extreme.

In younger religions, it does come down to weeding out those who are strongly opposed to the strained peas, and selecting for those who shut up and eat them.

Well I see you have already some knowledge of the Bible, so allow me to enlighten you some more, if I may. I see you've done enough reading/listening, to learn that the Bible has civil laws with capital punishment, such as stoning. What you might not have read, is that this all occurred in the Old Testament. And if telling you this happened in the Old Testament is not enough, I think you should learn a bit more before coming in and attacking the Bible like this.

Hint: What is today's year? 2014 A.D. What does A.D stand for? Anno Domini, or, The Year of our Lord..

Now, there are perhaps instances in the New Testament, that appear to call for "murdering your child" or "stoning your child". But please mention them, I would love to try to explain. Or perhaps Teej, maybe not that drastic, but I get the point you're trying to make

Do you think that believers are a bunch of unquestioning fools, who follow their leaders, who in-turn "filter out teachings" to suit personal agendas to "keep power"? You know, there's people who aren't "hypocrites" like you said, and follow the New Testament literally, it's called Dominionism. Or, we call them radicals.

Let me digress, and make a quick point. I am defending my Christianity. Not even all Christianity This equivocation of religion and Christianity, and its denominations that has been going on is unacceptable. I understand this thread is on religion. I am defending my faith, which I can elaborate on, if desired.

Google says that 2.2 Billion people claim to be Christians. That's 32%. Now, if there's no variance in what these 2 billion people believe in, I rest my case. Religion is a sham created by a bunch of frauds seeking followers.

But... that's not the case. I cannot speak for Christianity as a whole, but I will speak for what I believe in. This is fine line, I apologize if I did not explain myself well, but let me know if you have any questions.

Edit: building on this, we cannot defend the psychologically unstable, for examole, the father from Kenya who slaughters his own son with a machete in the name of God. If you say hes following the Bible, there's an issue with that. Actions of an individual who claims to be Christian, or even sect, can hardly represent the whole, no?

In your next post, that I have not quoted, you compared Christianity to Middle-East societies, and even China? I won't talk about the Middle East, since I admit, don't have enough knowledge on that area. But how much do you know about China, to say that "everyone pretends they are 100% on board" (just like Christians)? It's absurd to compare the two and I hope it's obvious enough that I don't need to say more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
When Christianity was first organized a few hundred years after Jesus's death, they too still had a LOT of immortal supernatural beings....God, the Ghost, the Father, the Son, with some references having them be the same being in different forms (The way the greeks, etc, would have a god come to earth in another form, etc...), and other references to them NOT being the same (Jesus saying his father was greater than him, etc)....plus THE DEVIL, who god is fighting with for the possession of the earth (Why an ALL powerful ruler would not win that already is another mystery...), and angels, and, demons, and devils and Saints, and artifacts, and so forth.
Teej, please, please, I am begging you to read some more!!! I am not an expert on the trinity, and I do not know what you're referring too that "organized Christianity". (I'll assume you are referring the First Council of Nicea) I do not know what you mean by "references" to God being "same-being" or "different being". Every entity of the trinity (The Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son) are not equal to one another, but each are God, and together they also form God.

Ultimately, everyone must realize, we cannot prove there is a God. If so, we would be God. If we knew who God was, what he did, and how he acts, what prevents us from striving to replicate him? God is greater than us. We cannot fathom, justify, or replicate his actions or timing. (Yes, I understand this plenty of people think this is a great reason we Christians come up with to explain anything "inconsistencies" or "unexplainable discrepancies" in Christianity)

I do wish I could refute this claim, but with my limited scope and knowledge, I sincerely admit, I cannot. Maybe one day, when we leave this earth, we will discover it. But as for now, we must each just observe and decide for ourselves. What I believe is, just like my puppy cannot understand some of the things I do, we cannot understand God, but too an infinitely more complex degree.

Thank you for reading.






Also, keep in mind, everybody is a victim of the false-consensus affect. So I as a start would love to strive to overcome this bias, and to be as subjective as possible. So please, tell me where I am wrong.

I don't expect anything to come from this debate, but if I can at least explain the opposition and carry a quality academic conversation, I've achieved my goal. After all, this is a forum about laser pointers
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Old 12-05-2014, 05:51 PM #3749
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well said jdawg

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Old 12-05-2014, 06:13 PM #3750
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
Well I see you have already some knowledge of the Bible, so allow me to enlighten you some more, if I may. I see you've done enough reading/listening, to learn that the Bible has civil laws with capital punishment, such as stoning. What you might not have read, is that this all occurred in the Old Testament. And if telling you this happened in the Old Testament is not enough, I think you should learn a bit more before coming in and attacking the Bible like this.


Now, there are perhaps instances in the New Testament, that appear to call for "murdering your child" or "stoning your child". But please mention them, I would love to try to explain. Or perhaps Teej, maybe not that drastic, but I get the point you're trying to make

Do you think that believers are a bunch of unquestioning fools, who follow their leaders, who in-turn "filter out teachings" to suit personal agendas to "keep power"?
Hey Jdawg,
Good post. I agree with some of your points but I would like to answer these above quoted questions if you don't mind. I will be brief because I have to go to work in 30 min but can elaborate more later.
First I want to speak for me and only me that I don't feel Christians or religious people are fools, stupid, or crazy. I do feel they are being gullible but not in the insulting form of the word. In the literal sense. That they are not questioning and believing things without proper evidence.

Regarding the New vs old testaments. I get this argument a lot and its pretty easy to refute. Some people feel the new testament is actually more immoral then the Torah. I am not sure I would go that far but it certainly has its share of problems if you want to paint him in an all loving high moral light.
I also want to argue that no where in the new Testament does Jesus say to throw out the old laws. In fact in the sermon on the mount, which is the argued crown jewel of Christianity and the new testament Jesus clearly say's "I have not come here to change any of the laws of the father". Jesus also commands slaves to "Obey your master's even the cruel ones".
That's a pretty disgusting command and not the words of some enlightened being.

Now my real problem with the argument your are trying to make about old vs new testaments is this. Its the same God. its not God 2.0. Its the same creator and destroyer. So is God imperfect? Was he some twisted homicidal, genocidal, tyrant who saw the error in his ways and made nice nice by sending his son to be tortured? This God of yours gets a pretty big get outta jail free card when you try to shuffle the New testament in to make it all better. The disgusting violent immorality of the O.T. is quite disturbing. God condoning and even ordering, rape, murder, slavery, genocide, and infacide ext. Yet Christianity tries to make it out the god loves everyone Soooooooo much. Well maybe don't order fathers to stone their daughters to death and wipe out entire cities but keep the virgins as spoils of war if you love your creations so much.

The book is disgusting and unless you can present a place in the N.T. apologizing for God radical violence of the O.T. I don't see it any better. It says the opposite. That Jesus was not there to change any of the laws.
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Old 12-05-2014, 06:20 PM #3751
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

mmm, this popcorn's good...

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Old 12-05-2014, 07:41 PM #3752
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Hey Jdawg,

Regarding the New vs old testaments. I get this argument a lot and its pretty easy to refute. Some people feel the new testament is actually more immoral then the Torah. I am not sure I would go that far but it certainly has its share of problems if you want to paint him in an all loving high moral light.
I also want to argue that no where in the new Testament does Jesus say to throw out the old laws. In fact in the sermon on the mount, which is the argued crown jewel of Christianity and the new testament Jesus clearly say's "I have not come here to change any of the laws of the father". Jesus also commands slaves to "Obey your master's even the cruel ones".
That's a pretty disgusting command and not the words of some enlightened being.

Now my real problem with the argument your are trying to make about old vs new testaments is this. Its the same God. its not God 2.0. Its the same creator and destroyer. So is God imperfect? Was he some twisted homicidal, genocidal, tyrant who saw the error in his ways and made nice nice by sending his son to be tortured? This God of yours gets a pretty big get outta jail free card when you try to shuffle the New testament in to make it all better. The disgusting violent immorality of the O.T. is quite disturbing. God condoning and even ordering, rape, murder, slavery, genocide, and infacide ext. Yet Christianity tries to make it out the god loves everyone Soooooooo much. Well maybe don't order fathers to stone their daughters to death and wipe out entire cities but keep the virgins as spoils of war if you love your creations so much.

The book is disgusting and unless you can present a place in the N.T. apologizing for God radical violence of the O.T. I don't see it any better. It says the opposite. That Jesus was not there to change any of the laws.
I appreciate your response. Apparently, this argument of New Testament vs Old Testament is something you heard of a lot. I'm surprised, I thought just mentioning it would explain my argument, I guess not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
God condoning and even ordering, rape, murder, slavery, genocide, and infacide ext. Yet Christianity tries to make it out the god loves everyone Soooooooo much. Well maybe don't order fathers to stone their daughters to death and wipe out entire cities but keep the virgins as spoils of war if you love your creations so much.
Sounds alright, at first. To the ignorant reader. Do I need to address this? I think most people will already be able to discern the accuracy in this paragraph without me saying anything. Is this what happens in the Bible? And tell me, how many times have you read this "disgusting book"?

But before I continue, let me state, I will be explaining the changes that occurred New Testament from the Old Testament based on what is written of, or happened, in scripture. Many of you do not believe the Bible, so if the premise is not agreed upon, we can hardly have topicality on the argument.

Keeping this in mind, I will proceed to attempt to explain this NT vs OT idea.

There are a number of key differences between the Old and New Testament. Most importantly, "The Old Testament shows the wrath of God against sin (with glimpses of His grace); the New Testament shows the grace of God toward sinners (with glimpses of His wrath)." I can safely say, this is accepted by the Christian community as a whole.

Ultimately, the Bible focuses on one person, that is Jesus. Some may call him a prophet, a sham, a rabble-rouser, a famous carpenter, or even a non-existent character of literature. But for most Christians, he is of the Holy Trinity, and thus God.

The Old Testament tells of the coming of the Messiah, and many prophecies throughout the book speak of a new High Priest. This new High Priest, Jesus, while innocent, will make the ultimate sacrifice, his life to atone for the sins of all creation.

The laws of the Old Testament were washed away by the coming of the Messiah. Those laws in the Old Testament, calling for genocide, infanticide, stoning, death penalties, they are washed away by Jesus. Why is this? Because those laws were meant to show men their ineptitude, their helplessness, and their need for salvation. Jesus was that salvation, and with salvation, the old laws were no longer necessary.

They were disgusting and horrid laws, I agree. But we are even more horrid and disgusting people. We deserve it.

I mean, if you don't believe that Jesus exists, there's no point of this argument. You may say these are big words, big claims, big ideas, but nothing else. I'm sorry to state that I can't help you then. I am by no means a Bible scholar, this is what I have come to learn and believe in.

I don't have time to address what you said regarding the Sermon on the Mount, perhaps a later time.
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Old 12-05-2014, 10:06 PM #3753
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
Sounds alright, at first. To the ignorant reader. Do I need to address this? I think most people will already be able to discern the accuracy in this paragraph without me saying anything. Is this what happens in the Bible? And tell me, how many times have you read this "disgusting book"?
Yes you do if you want to defend your position. I agree most people will see the accuracy of my previous statement in fact you do yourself in the below quoted box's. Are these atrocities not Gods laws in which he commanded. Do you need me to give you the multitude of accounts of Gods atrocities taken directly from the bible? Im not sure how you can seem to be backhandedly suggesting my statements are obvious to many to be false yet later on in the same reply confirm them as Gods laws and his wrath and in your own words describe them as disgusting.

I have read the Bible fully cover to cover as well as studied the individual books and gospels to differing degrees over the years. I have also educated myself on the authorships of the Gospels, the contradictory accounts in the new testaments, the failures of biblical prophesy ext.. Im not just shooting from the hip blindly. Before you go too far down that road you may want to know that many active atheists are more bibllicaly read than most Christians so maybe tread lightly on that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
of you do not believe the Bible, so if the premise is not agreed upon, we can hardly have topicality on the argument.
We have whatever topic we choose to discuss/debate. Currently the focus seems to be the N.T. vs. O.T. but feel free to redefine the topic or clarify what it is you are defending or asserting. However I do not accept your presuppositions and premises that the Bible is the word of god or that the NT absolves the immorality of the OT.
Of coarse I don't believe the Bible is the word of God because I am an atheist and haven't seen and evidence or heard any sound arguments for me to accept the claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
laws in the Old Testament, calling for genocide, infanticide, stoning, death penalties, they are washed away by Jesus. Why is this? Because those laws were meant to show men their ineptitude, their helplessness, and their need for salvation. Jesus was that salvation, and with salvation, the old laws were no longer necessary.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

This is a common pitfall of the apologist because you are INTERPRETING the Gospels to have intended the opposite instead of sighting where the book states what you are saying. In fact the above passage shows clearly the exact opposite of what you are attempting to prove. One of the main flaws with the Bible and a main arguments against this book being the perfect word of God is that every denomination interprets it differently and asserts they have the "correct" interpretation.

Since God didn't send down a rosetta stone along with his words ALL interpretations must be considered and hold the same weight and Christians can not claim to know the mind of God beyond the direct translations of his supposed words. The same followers that like to argue that the NT wipes the slate clean from the OT are somehow pretending to know which snippets should be carried over like the 10 commandments, the condemnation of homo***uality and many others. Its quite convenient. But because jesus states he has not come here to change any of the laws of the father Im not sure how a Christians attempts to read between the lines and claim to know what is what can be accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
B]They were disgusting and horrid laws, I agree. But we are even more horrid and disgusting people.[/B] We deserve it
This to me is the most troubling part of your beliefs and honestly is such a cruel and disgusting thing for Christians to indoctrinate small children with. Anyone, Christian or not that would indoctrinate children that they are awful, horrible, sinful little creatures deserving of eternal TORTURE needs to take a look at the serious repercussions this crap has! It is vile it is the core of my disdain for religions. WTF is wrong with anyone that would ever spread that filth and poison a child's mind. This has real and measurable damage and negative effects on people but hey, its a great form of control isn't it?

Right here you are agreeing the horrors of Gods laws and commands yet earlier seem to pretend I am painting the bible in an unfair light. So you get to call the bible out but others that don't agree with you can not?

So these "bad" people that God put a hit out on were deserving of it? All of them? Let me ask you something, what crime could a cities young children be worthy of being smashed against the rocks to death as God commands ? How about the infants that God ordered to be smitten alongside the elderly and even the livestock?

(1 Samuel 15:3) Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.


Exactly how were CHILDREN deserving of your Gods death orders? Would you smash a child to death against the ground because of his fathers actions?

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you wouldn't. So are you more moral than the God you follow and love? I would say you are. In fact I would say most people are.
Could you please answer my questions you skipped over earlier, is this a different God or did God get better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdawg View Post
if you don't believe that Jesus exists, there's no point of this argument. You may say these are big words, big claims, big ideas, but nothing else. I'm sorry to state that I can't help you then.
So let me follow this logic. unless a person believes in Jesus they can't point out the flaws of the Christian doctrines and holy texts? So you can decide if you wish to continue or not i will tell you on the claim of jesus being an actual person in history that I am agnostic leaning towards yes he did. Historically we don't know if Jesus actually existed. There is very little documentation of him other than some known obvious scribes additions to Josephus's writings. There is good reason to believe there was a Jesus figure in history which is the bases of Christianity and the church but you have a long day ahead of you to provide extra Biblical support that he was the son of God suffered died and was buried and on the 3rd day arose again in fulfillment of the scriptures.

And just so we are clear, I don't need your help or saving.
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Old 12-05-2014, 11:57 PM #3754
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Answer to question about where I got the father is greater reference:

John 14:28

28 If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


Its sad perhaps when the Atheist knows the bible (New Testament and Old Testament) better, but, really, memorizing a book doesn't prove piety and not memorizing it doesn't mean you didn't love it, etc.

I read the bibles we had as a kid, some older as they'd been in the family, and later, some other versions, and, some sticks with me. I won't say I can quote chapter and verse, but, I do tend to remember "that I read a part about that.." and if I need to know where I read it, its a quick thumb through until I see it again.

I won't say I've always been an atheist per se, as, the way I remember it all, I heard about Santa, the first time I REMEMBER at about 3...and knew it was all pretend even then...I mean, the whole world in one night and presents down chimneys, by a FAT GUY? Really?

I don't actually remember going to church until I was maybe 4 or 5, I may have gone earlier, but I have no memory until then. I remember not really knowing WHY we were in this pretty fancy building and every one was singing and acting weird.

I think I was closer to 5 when I found out we were supposed to be worshiping (A new concept) god (Another new concept).

I instantly knew god was like Santa, and played along.

Strangely, some grownups didn't seem to catch on...they were really SERIOUS about this god thing. I wondered if maybe they knew something I was missing, or if THIS prank was simply even MORE deep.

So I decide to read the bible and study it like a school book. So I did, both testaments. Crap, it WAS a prank. BUT, this one had even gray haired stooped over grown men out with their gunny sacks trying to catch the darn snipe...until the day they died.

I read more, and then about other religions. Judaism was easy, same book, like a prerequisite to the next class. Islam was sort of a a shuffling together of the testaments, still pretty straight forward.

Some were a bit harder to pin down...but, they all shared some basic principles.

Exploring the principles lead to other entities that used the exact same techniques, like some multi-level marketing entities successfully use to teach their people how to recruit, etc.

Its always been about controlling the population and profiting from it. The first medicine man figured it out. After that, it spread like wildfire.

Say YOU can talk to the spirits/gods, etc...and YOU can act as an intermediary between your tribe/flock and the supernatural, and you never have to work again....well,, not in the same way at least.

When people were able to gather in larger groups (After agriculture, etc..), ONE medicine man could simply not do it all....so, the "family" helped with the business. This why back to the beginning of recorded history, the early ones in charge were a 'lineage". The Priests were a lineage just as the royalty were...and, they walked the primrose path hand in hand.

If the royalty need the people to do something for them w/o grumbling as much/needed and army to go kill some other group...the Priest's job was always to do some mumbo jumbo and get them riled up to do what their gods wanted them to.

So, before battle, there would be a show of rolling the bones, or burning and reading entrails, or whatever the schtick du jour was...and joyously declare that VICTORY IS ORDAINED!!!! Go' Get'm boys!

If they lost anyway...oops, that goat was found to have been allowed to eat some forbidden grass, and was not worthy for sacrifice...and it changed the results of the burned intestine forecast.

Later, they learned to say "It was god's will" and "The Lord works in mysterious ways" and other stock alibis for why their GOD seemed to be rooting for the OTHER side/they didn't get what they prayed for, etc.

After a while, the lineages of the priests became enormous. They breed like rabbits, with all they could eat and no hard labor or injuries, and, well, there would be TOO many after a while in one place.

So, they needed to expand...to cover new territories. And, to organize, because instead of it all going into the FAMILY kitty, there were now a lot of kitties, and, they'd get catty if they thought they were not getting their fair share.

Once organized, and, to fairly share the work, and, the ADMINISTRATION of the organization, they needed to have officers, ranks, duties, buildings (Eventually temples, etc).

As with most organizations...they had an objective. Money from the congregation. They worked out that being tied to the political entities meant they had official status...and, they started to tax (ask for donations) in set increments.

They also knew, again from the first medicine man...that the PRODUCT was the supernatural, and being recognized as how you connected to it.

HOW to convince people that that was the case was fine tuned, and honed to a razor sharp focus.

The Catholic Church INVENTED propaganda. They CALLED it propaganda, as they coined the phrase (From the Latin) in that context. NO ONE thought that it was a bad thing back then, it was a neutral term, a new term, and just meant to propagate the catholic teachings in the context used.

So, the idea that you can spread information that would sway people to your cause was not invented by the church....the idea of doing it as a planned campaign with long term goals, with the objective being conversion to the religion...rather than merely buying a product or joining an army....was.


So, religion goes way back....and, its pretty much the same thing:
appealing to people's spiritual sides, promising intervention with the supernatural, telling them ONLY THEY can intervene with the supernatural, and the OTHER'S who say they can are liars...

...and after that its mere specifics of what happens to you after your dead (Always something good if you believe THEM and something bad if you DON'T).

As MOST humans on the planet are pretty much convinced that there are ghosts, angels, demons, gods, etc...and can't deal with their lives JUST ENDING, , they are pretty desperate to believe that their choice in supernatural interventionist was correct...and, if someone, say, John, tells them that John chose a different supernatural interventionist, they will argue quite vehemently that NO! THEIR SI is the ONLY one, and, John better change his mind before its too late!

If John refuses, and insists HIS SI is the right one, and THEY better change THEIR mind before its too late...some weird thing kicks in where people who really really need an SI, feel TERRIFIED that maybe they DID pick the wrong one because someone else looked the same brochures, but picked a different one.

That means they have to kill them, because their SI says that other SI are committing blasphemy, which is punishable by death.

So both preach love and tolerance, and doing for others as you'd have them do for you, or a variation on that theme (Very popular theme, appeals to people's sense of fairness...), and also to kill those that use a different SI, or, say you picked the wrong SI.


That's organized religion. Supernatural Intervention.

If you don't believe in the SUPERnatural, just the natural, well, ALL the SI freakout, as that's ONE thing they can ALL agree would be a disastrous trend for the SI industry.

The supernatural industrial complex (sic) jealously protects its business interests. A trend away from believing in the supernatural is the sort of thing a strong propaganda campaign is needed to counteract, and funding anything that promotes the idea that the supernatural exists becomes a priority.




Some of the above is a bit tongue in cheek obviously, but, it represents the distillation of what I have read from the bibles and historical records of many cultures and societies...as a concept.

IE: Don't say dumb stuff about me lying about there being a SIC, I just made the term up a few minutes ago, etc. I like it though, it seems fitting.












Part of the problem is that we do have evidence that Jesus existed, several hundred years before "Christianity" did, if you review the documentation, including the dead sea scrolls for example.

So, I am convinced that Jesus existed, there is enough historical evidence of it, except, he was not the Jesus portrayed in the bible, he was a rebel fighting the Romans.

The Romans needed to get these PITA JEWS under control. As organized religions are organized for one purpose, and one purpose alone, political strength, in the original meaning of the term, the idea to CHANGE to FOCUS of the Jews who were fighting the Romans into Christians who would be taught that they should be MEEK and turn the other cheek, and spread love and NOT FIGHT THE ROMANS, was hatched.

They used the same strategy to tame the barbarian hordes to the north, etc.

Overtime, it took off, and the Catholic Church was doing really really well.

(That's the "Political Party") They even have elections to pick who god chooses to represent man on earth. I was at the Vatican for one pope, and there was great excitement about black and white smoke and all that.

They essentially got things so well arranged that all royalty had to get their power from the POPE/God. That meant the Pope, as, for some reason, god was always busy...and never seemed to get personally involved. After a long time, the monarchs found out how to get around their power, and the clergy went back mostly to religious stuff, officially.

The catholic church's headaches mostly stem historically from the fact that they needed some sort of "Lineage" so that they could claim their line ran from Jesus. Unfortunately, there was no evidence of there being anyone Jesus said was to represent him while he was gone. If they had not waited roughly 300 years to start the process, it would have been easier to have an apostle, etc, say, oh, yeah, wait, it was ME, he said I was to be his representative...where's my hat? Does that come in white?

But, they didn't, and 300 years later, it was hard to create a fake trail. They did think to cover it by essentially saying anyone who questioned the lineage would be in deep supernatural doo doo, and that was anathema for most....so, if oyu don't have the proof, make it a crime to question whether there's proof. Easy peasy.

The splits came when some INSIDE the church would not STFU and cooperate anymore, and they split off and formed other christian groups who did not accept the Pope as their leader....and with no pope to punish them for protesting that he had no authority, they were free to practice their own version of Christianity.

Obviously, just like there are many kids who NEVER discover on their own that there's no Santa Claus, but grow up just fine, there are some really nice, non-political, and actually pious members of ALL religions. They actually follow the teachings for all the right reasons, even if not JUST so they don't want to fight the Romans.

So, my personal opinion is that religion is harmless in of itself, but ORGANIZED religion is the Devil.

The Devil is so clever though, that he convinces his minions that they are fighting for GOOD and not evil....and, has the troops on the ground winning hearts and minds with, for the most part, genuine good intent. (If THEY didn't believe, how could they convince their flocks?).

Minions do go south though, much to the detriment of choir boys, etc.

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Old 12-06-2014, 01:02 AM #3755
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

it seems teej and I are very similar, he responds in nearly the way I would.

a few points, some have kinda been made.

1. god was punishing sin in the OT and forgiving it in the NT. OK, if you are ok believing in a god who supposedly knows the future and has orchestrated all of existence, having such a fickle will, that's your prerogative. it means you believe god knew he was going to forgive in the future, but for now it's no holds barred. it also means that not even close to every human in history had equal chance to come to god, yet god would have us believe he is no respecter of persons (acts 10:34. and don't even think of saying that peter said it, not god, because ALL scripture is, as USAbro informed us, God breathed) Isn't even the fact that people in the bible got to witness supernatural events, and I do not, show that god shows favortism? why am I expected to come to belief from nothing but a book, while all those people saw things like:

seas parting.
pillars of fire
fire and brimstone from heaven
seas of blood
sun stopping in the sky (or earth ceasing to rotate, presumably, the details arent important)
a man killing a thousand people with a jawbone
audible voice from heaven
'apperating' manna
levitation

just to name a few. If I were to witness any of the above, let alone more than one, I might be more inclined to believe. why am I expected to come to the same conclusion just by reading about it?

if that makes sense to you in relation to a supposedly eternal, never incorrect god that never changes, then you are doing mental summersaults and may not even know it, a term I like for it is doublethink, from 1984. punish severly today, forgive relatively easily tomorrow. he certainly has a flair for pageantry too. I also refuse to believe an infant is irredeemably evil, deserving of death, so I part company from god there. It's hard for me to fathom someone who is still shitting their pants doing much evil. If you think god killed the infants because their evil parents would raise them evil, you're saying you believe an omnipotent god could not come up with a better plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Quote:
The same followers that like to argue that the NT wipes the slate clean from the OT are somehow pretending to know which snippets should be carried over like the 10 commandments, the condemnation of homo***uality and many others. Its quite convenient.
A superb point

2. Matthew 5:17. if jesus means this, why did he not agree to stone the woman instead of suggesting he who has no sin cast the first stone? it was moses's law after all, which he just got done saying he had not come to abolish but to fulfill. He also says he has not come to bring peace but a sword, as well as the stuff about breaking up families, setting them against eachother. clearly, it's not all love and forgiveness. it's more like, join the club now while you can, because later it will be too late and you'll spend eternity wishing you had. aka a threat (that's no threat, that's a promise) I don't negotiate with terrorists.

3. the flood also killed many animals and plants, were they evil sinners as well? why couldnt god magically give all the evil people heart attacks? whatever, his ways are higher and mysterious. you really have to believe a dizzying assortment of crazy stuff to buy the flood story, I don't care to go into it, i'd be up all night typing

My mother has told me that I am unable to understand the bible correctly because I lack spirit. seems that to understand the bible, you need to be literate AND have spirit. how do I get spirit I asked? you all know the answer, by believing the BIBLE of course. silly me, why cant I understand why that makes sense and is perfectly reasonable? in other words, in this case, you must already believe something for it to make sense. not only that, but it will never make sense until you magically convince yourself that your standard of evidence has indeed been met. crazier still, the fact I used to believe it whole heartedly would seem to indicate I had spirit and could understand it, but now I just cant seem to remember what exactly it was I understood so well. because the devil has swooped away my spirit and belief. Either that or I never really had spirit, my mother suspects, even though I formerly preached christianity to others. don't confuse me with the facts! seems that the more extrodinary the claim, the less evidence is needed to buy it, carl sagan had it all backwards

I call this autodeception and presuppositional

Presuppositional apologetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

while I'm on the subject, I must say this also. I find a jehovah's witness who would let their children, too young to decide for themselves, perish if a blood tranfusion is the only thing that can save them, morally reprehensible.

how many religious teach their kids their faith, but fail to add that it is one of many? If the bible is so evidently true, why not read your kids all known holy books, then ask them to pick the right one? sarcasm time. I hear the memebers of Islam are all doing this, yet their kids are still thinking the quran is the right one, maybe you should check it out

I wear the apostate badge proudly now, however. basically like a reverse Apostle Paul.

I stopped believing in santa when I had been a good boy but he failed to deliver the NES I personally requested. **** you santa

another good one on god's love by NSC:

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Old 12-06-2014, 02:25 AM #3756
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



note: There are many, many not represented here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
Presuppuwhatits and I really hope you got yourself an NES

Hilarious Bible video
Love and Kindness, brutal!


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Old 12-06-2014, 02:31 AM #3757
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Worse yet, the right one might be one that hasn't been invented yet.

Worse yet, the right one might never be invented.

Worse still, we might be incapable of inventing the correct one.
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:39 AM #3758
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Worse yet, the right one might be one that hasn't been invented yet.

Worse yet, the right one might never be invented.

Worse still, we might be incapable of inventing the correct one.
So true, so true. Thank you Sir, I will now have trouble getting to sleep tonight

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Old 12-06-2014, 03:33 AM #3759
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Usually I try not to post too close together, but I did not know this one was out, it is really funny to me, and actually relates a lot to our exact discussion. although, when I was a christian, I was in the "god and jesus are totally seperate entities" camp, so many of the points in the video will be moot to that camp

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Old 12-06-2014, 10:33 AM #3760
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Agree to disagree gentlemen? lol
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