Old 12-04-2014, 06:26 AM #3713
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I don't understand you teej, you just don't make sense to me, but maybe I don't to you.
I understand what you are saying, but, what you are saying is misinformed. (Not about oxygen, we all agree about it being useful for combustion, etc - the part about the bible not being edited)

The issues:

There is overwhelming evidence from the church itself that the bible is edited, they have copies of the versions, they study them, results of the studies are published.

I'm saying the bible was edited, and giving a simple example of it being translated into languages that it was not written in. I'm saying that different versions were different, in that they have different stories and sections, and different orders of events, etc.

I'm saying that it is not a historical document, as it was written hundreds of years after all involved parties were already dead. I'm also saying that it does overlap historical events, and takes place within historical events, and that there is evidence that Jesus existed.

The evidence indicates that Jesus was not really a carpenter, but a rebel fighter in a rebel group fighting the Romans.

The evidence indicates that Nazareth, etc, didn't all exist when Jesus was alive, and were founded hundreds of years later. The bible says he was in those places, but, they didn't exist, and, the evidence indicates that the towns did actually sound a lot like the rebel group names, and other towns, etc, and that the people who sat down to write the bible hundreds of years after the events, thought the modern towns were the ones referred to...and said that's where Jesus was, etc.

Some versions corrected some inconsistencies, some left them. You can read the bible that says Judas hung himself, or, that his guts essentially just blew out all by themselves for example. Not really a translation thing, or a word have two meanings thing....just two different versions of what happened to Judas. In one version, he feels bad and punishes himself (Hanging), and, the other, he is essentially disemboweled by god. So, both have him punished for his betrayal, but, not the same way....or under the same circumstances. Obviously, only ONE of those would be correct, or NONE...but, NOT BOTH. WHICH is "the word of god"? So I'm saying that you either resort to cherry picking the passages you like/are comforted or inspired by, and ignore the parts that make no sense/tell you to be evil, etc...and don't worry about if any of it actually is TRUE, or, decide if ONE disciple is telling the word of god, and the other is not, and then throw out everything the "wrong" disciple said in the bible as unreliable, or, throw out ALL the accounts by disciples in conflict as unreliable....and use what's left, etc.


You can go to the Vatican and read some of the versions and see for your self, or, get translated copies of the Aramaic, Latin or Greek versions and see those for yourself (easier).

You can then compare the different versions of the word of god as edited over the centuries, and decide for yourself if they are the same or different....or if you simply have a preference for whatever reason.

I don't think its that unclear, or hard to understand...but, if its still hard to understand, let me know and I'll see if I can find out what you need to make it clear.




Last edited by Teej; 12-04-2014 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:58 AM #3714
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
If any religious here want to know what it's like to be atheist, just know that you are already atheist about a great number of gods. I just believe in one fewer than the rest

Shakenawake, Love that point!
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:10 AM #3715
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by clansley View Post
Shakenawake, Love that point!
It is a great point.





I also liked the post with the search for a "not a stamp collector" term.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Unfortunately I would have to refer to myself as atheist yet I think thats an unnecessary label. ie, What do we call a person that doesn't collect stamps? I guess Ive heard no sound or valid argument nor read or experienced anything to suggest the existence of supernature let alone a god or supreme being. But trust me, Ive searched. The application of critical thinking seems to be quite a damper on the god claim.




I'd vote for aphilatelist.



So, you DON'T collect stamps?!?! What are you, some sort of aphilatelist or something?


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Old 12-04-2014, 01:18 PM #3716
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm not misinformed. I could have just as easily said that to you.

We don't know everything. For example, Uranium 238 shows it's possible for things to happen without a cause, like the matter in the universe to form. That goes against a God. How do I refute that? I don't know. But if you watch debates and understand it you might change some of your views

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Old 12-04-2014, 05:16 PM #3717
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I'm not misinformed. I could have just as easily said that to you.

We don't know everything. For example, Uranium 238 shows it's possible for things to happen without a cause, like the matter in the universe to form. That goes against a God. How do I refute that? I don't know. But if you watch debates and understand it you might change some of your views

@teej-do you have a skype?
LOL

YOU ARE misinformed, as things you said are without any question refuted by the very authorities you derive your original source information from The people who wrote the book have different editions of the book you say was never edited.

YOU CAN say that about me of course, except that I have a found basis for what I say, and, you could decide that if two people have opinions, that there's a 50/50 chance either is correct...

...but it doesn't actually work like that.

For example, if I say 2+2 is 4, and you say 2+2 = 9, saying that there is a 50/50 chance you are correct is an application of incorrect analysis.

IE: Its analogous to using the wrong formula to figure out an answer....the "math" is correct, but the conclusion can be flawed.

When you say things like you did about Uranium...it implies that you think that Uranium would lead to a different conclusion than, say, every other element would lead you to.



I would also ask that you step back, and consider that the BIBLE doesn't SAY how old the universe is. It doesn't say how old the earth is.

It does say an all powerful being needed to rest after making it all, that it took him 6 days to do it...but also has individual people living almost a thousand years...and having children with their 130-ish year old spouses, and so forth....so, the entire time thing can be taken with a grain of salt....as in, there's absolutely nothing in the bible that can be used to mathematically come up with an age....there's too many unknowns and variables.

Nature itself has variables. There are patterns, but, there are ways to interpret them.

If, for you, knowing that things can happen without a cause helps you to understand the way the universe works, that's OK, except all thing DO happen due to causes.

The "causes" may not be directed by a higher power, but, when a radioactive material decays, there IS a cause, the cause is that its unstable....but the decay itself is random.

If a giant space rock the size of Mt Everest were to crash into the earth at ~ 25,000 mph...and cause cataclysmic destruction to our planet, and, yet, also give us our moon for example, one might wonder about the ODDS of two random chunks of ANYTHING in an infinite amount of space actually HITTING each other.

That is, of course, the wrong question.

Its akin to randomly selecting 7 cards from a deck of 52, and then making a hand, and computing the odds that you would have selected THAT EXACT hand...and you'd get some astronomically impossibly small chance, and the odds would mathematically indicate that it would have been pretty much impossible for you to select THAT hand.

When you choose the wrong question, you tend get the right answer to the question, and confuse THAT with what you REALLY wanted to know.

I HAVE watched some of those "debates", and, if you've studied logic, you would be AGHAST at the arguments made by Hovkind, Ham, etc...

The arguments are ALL invalid. ALL of the arguments are SPECIFICALLY the kind used to trick dumb people into thinking that the argument proved something.

So, if you don't understand logic or statistics for example, the creationists will use that to trick you into thinking that they made a point, when in fact, they did not.

They will use tricks like "The odds against something..." and the dumb people will nod and say, hey, yeah, that could never happen!

They will use circular reasoning, like saying that the source says the source is right, and if the source is flawless, and, says it is flawless, its impossible for it to be wrong...and the dumb will nod and say "Yeah! That's RIGHT!"

When its pointed out that they used circular reasoning, they will turn around and just randomly say some point made by their opponent was circular reasoning...because they KNOW that their TARGET AUDIENCE doesn't know what that actually means....and it allows them to then say, well you say I used circular reasoning, but you did too, etc.


They will use things that superficially sound like they go together, to imply other meanings, even though they don't.

The creationist museum had one part where they "proved" that all of the dating techniques used by "science" were flawed and proved nothing, by saying that, after all, they use the carbon to date stuff, and then say it agrees with the fossil records, but, how do they know the fossil records are right? Sure, they use the carbon dating...so, if one is not valid, obviously, that proves the other is invalid, right? (Audience "YEAH! AMEN!!)

They take one type of formation, say accretion, and then say "Rocks can therefore form in a short time, and don't need millions of years!"

And ignore igneous rocks, and crystal formation that has different appearances based how how long it took to cool, and pretty much ALL other evidence, or even that there are more than ONE kind of rock.

IE: Talk about the one kind that CAN form more quickly as if it represent how ALL rocks form, and then make sweeping conclusions about "rocks".


Its akin to: My scientist friend here is trying to convince us all with his "Science" that birds can fly, when, all of us here know for fact that they can't.

Mr. Scientist, isn't it it true that even scientists don't agree on whether birds can fly?

Mr Creationist, they do not disagree about if birds can fly, they say some birds can fly, and some can't.

Mr. Scientist, that's not true, you are lying. As a matter of fact, I have a picture with an article, written by a SCIENTIST, discussing a bird that lives in the arctic that can't fly, and even explaining why wings do not allow flight! (Audience - "YEAH! THAT'S RIGHT!!!! AMEN!!!)

Mr. Creationist, that is talking about penguins, which are flightless...

Mr. Scientist, so, YOU ADMIT BIRDS ARE FLIGHTLESS!!!!

Mr. Creationist, no, I said PENGUINS are flightless!

Mr. Scientist, PENGUINS ARE BIRDS, SO, You Just ADMITTED that birds can't fly, with your own words and the words of one of your OWN SCIENTISTS!

(Audience goes wild - YEAH!!!! AMEN!!!!)


If you KNOW about "birds" the above seems absurd.

If you never heard of "birds", or, you did, but only superficially, you have no IDEA whether they can fly or not....so, the above arguments could convince you they don't, ESPECIALLY if them NOT flying reinforces your world view in some way.

The problem is that the "audience" consists of people who understand how the world works, logic, science, reasoning, physics, etc, and those who do not.

The one's who DO understand these things don't really need convincing that what they know is correct, they already saw birds fly, understand laminar flow, and get how it happens.


The one's who DON'T know how things work don't really need convincing that the birds, whatever they are, can't fly, because, authority figures they respect TOLD THEM birds can't fly, and that saying they can fly is against the word of god and must be stopped....and that the "debate" is to prove it to the scientists.

So, if you are TOLD you need to believe something for your life to have meaning, well, that's a strong motivation to want to believe it.

So if the debate seems to favor "your side", you are essentially rooting for the stuff said by "your side", and doing your best to assume the other side is lying/being deceptive.

That's human nature.

The problem is not of course birds, its topics the audience DOES NOT know about, the way they didn't know about birds in the example.

So if two people are discussing carbon 14 dating, or rocks, and, you would not know how to carbon 14 date something, how it works or how the data is interpreted, or how many ways a rock can form, and what the differences are....

...its VERY EASY to manipulate you by simply having "your side" say what the facts are, and the other side say what the facts are, and know that you will be predisposed to assume "your side's facts" are the correct ones.

Again, it is NOT a 50/50 chance that "your side is correct". IF (IF) you analyze the arguments themselves, you would clearly see, without a shadow of a doubt, that ONE side is using invalid arguments designed to trick people, and, the OTHER side is using actual logical arguments that actually prove what they purport to.


Which side do you think is using logic and reason, the people who use it as part of their daily life who are charged with the task of using logic and reason to do their work, or, the people who are trying to convince you that THOSE people are wrong?


I'll throw out one more point - Evolution.

It REALLY means that, essentially, mutations happen, and, they either work out, or, they don't.

If they work out, they are passed to future generations, who in turn, if it STILL works out, pass it to THEIR future generations, and so forth.

Working out in this context means that they gained some advantage from it, so that more of their species are produced, or, survive. That CAN mean an INDIVIDUAL critter dies w/o reproducing, but, that the SPECIES benefits.

That's it in a nutshell.

Survival of the fittest is just a way of saying the above.

So, there were things that were sort of cat like and sort of dog like and sort of bear like, and so forth...and, in SOME environments, it was beneficial to be MORE like one or the other...so, over time, the thing that was not any of those, became more and more like whatever worked.

That's why there are so many varieties of critters etc.

The arguments that, "well, dogs can be breed to be different sizes and colors and shapes, but the off spring are still dogs...a dog never gives birth to something that isn't a dog"...is one of those ways to trick people.

Its not like a frog gave birth to a Tyrannosaurus...to get from amphibian to reptile. A Tuna didn't give birth to a frog one day either.

They evolved over time...so the Tuna's ancestors gave rise, over millenia, to more froglike critters. The Tuna themselves were not changing...their off spring were breeding among themselves, so something new was developing.

The fish that crawled along the ocean floor on lobes, could invade tidal flats and eat beached critters, as well as escape larger critters in the surf....and, eventually, their off spring inherited benefits that allowed them to go farther and gain more food, less predation, and so forth. The one's who absorbed more O2 from the air could stay out of the water longer, and have more time to find food/avoid hungry jaws, etc.

So, the time frame required to SEE a new species is longer than one human's life time, so, no you would NOT see a dog give birth to a non-dog...but maybe a dog with a gene that makes its legs really short, and, if in the wild, or, somewhere that was a BENEFIT, you might see the dog lose its legs altogether, so that it can wriggle through tight brambles and down burrows better to catch more food, be able to hide where predators could not reach it or their young.

Over time, the legless dogs would continue to be optimized for that environment, and, millennia later, they would be analogous to the relationship between a snake and a lizard for example.

So, if you dissect some snakes, etc, you find they do have evidence of where the legs used to be, a pelvic girdle for example, small legs that don't stick out of the body any more, or which are reduced to small bumps, etc.

Some snakes are more warm blooded than others. And so forth...all of life is in a state of flux if you know how to look.

Otherwise its like seeing a snowman in a neighbor's yard, remembering that it snowed yesterday when they made it...but that its 35 F right now at 7 am the next day, and it didn't melt...and that scientists say ice melts at over 32 F, but its 35 and there it is, IRREFUTABLE PROOF that ice DOESN'T melt at more than 32 F.



You need to ask the right question to get a MEANINGFUL answer.

If "your side" has to resort to lies and deception to convince people they are right, is it because they do not have the skills to present the TRUTH in a manner that their AUDIENCE would get? Or, is it that they have to use lies and deceptions because they are NOT presenting the TRUTH.


As I mentioned, the bible doesn't say how old anything is...its all interpretation. If you want to say that we have no way of knowing how long a day was, that's fine...but, also ask, who is saying that Adam, or Eve, did ANY of this?

Who took the notes when god dictated this?

Where are THEY in the bible? THEY would be in that rather short list of people the bible mentions as speaking directly with god.

Who else was THERE when Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden?

If Adam lived to be almost a thousand years old....WHEN did the story get TOLD for the first time? It could not have been written when Adam was alive, because it talks about what happened afterwards...as a matter of fact...it had to be written after ALL of it happened, or, it could not INCLUDE what happened afterwards. Prophesy is presented as such for example....when the future IS mentioned.

And so forth.

So, ask critical questions that may allow you to keep Jesus, drop the stuff that isn't actually IN the bible, and accept that its OK to use reason and logic to try to figure out the REAL age of the word or universe, and to actually understand how things really work.

I like how Noah was able to gather two of everything, including fish, from all parts of the world...I mean, he's in the Middle East, and, manages to find a pair of Tapirs from Central America, Penguins from both the arctic and antarctic, microorganisms trapped in sea ice, as well as growing in the boiling hot springs in Yellowstone National Park, build a habitat that keeps the frozen ones cold enough to not die (Invents refrigeration? and electricity?) and builds chambers to hold the thermophilic bacteria from volcanic stacks, miles beneath the ocean at the tremendous pressures and temperatures required for them to live (Also invents bathyscaphe to go down and get them all?)

And puts them all in this floating technological masterpiece?




Apply some critical thinking, and see where it takes you.


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Old 12-04-2014, 06:11 PM #3718
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 12-04-2014, 08:47 PM #3719
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@teej-your posts are getting so long, I don't even read through them all the way. Please make it a little shorter.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:13 PM #3720
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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@teej-your posts are getting so long, I don't even read through them all the way. Please make it a little shorter.
That's good, I asked for how to help you look at the new information, and, putting it into shorter easier to read sections is doable.

I'm afraid a lot of the scholarly research you need to review is also long, so, reading those would probably also not work for you.

I'll see if there are resources geared for your abilities.

In the interest of gearing things towards your most pressing questions, what do you need to know most? I'll start there.



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Old 12-04-2014, 09:31 PM #3721
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The problem is that I can read it, I just don't have time to read 20 minute posts. I don't know how you've had that much time to write them!
Are you set against intelligent design.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:41 PM #3722
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
The problem is that I can read it, I just don't have time to read 20 minute posts. I don't know how you've had that much time to write them!
Are you set against intelligent design.
OK, it takes too long to read things is about the same issue as far as brevity is concerned and a fix, so no problem.

It takes mere moments to write them, I use a of of spaces to make it easier to read (For ME at least), so, they're shorter than they look when spaced the way a normal letter would be for example. If I took MORE time, I could make them shorter though.


Am I set against intelligent design?

I'm not against there BEING intelligent design, but, the way its USED as a term now a days, I don't believe there's any evidence for it, that is not based on spurious arguments, including the way the hole is shaped EXACTLY like the bottom of the puddle of water IN it.

Is there something about intelligent design you would like explained?

As in, is there something, for you, that makes you think that the only explanation is a supernatural one? An example that, for you, says THIS proves that there is intelligent design?

Or would you prefer to tell me what you believe evolution means, and why it doesn't make sense to you?





Un-spaced PS - OK, it takes too long to read things is about the same issue as far as brevity is concerned and a fix, so no problem. It takes mere moments to write them, but I do have to go back and fix typo's, etc, add things like this, and so forth...I use a of of spaces to make it easier to read (For ME at least), so, they're shorter than they look when spaced the way a normal letter would be for example. Am I set against intelligent design? I'm not against there BEING intelligent design, but, the way its USED as a term now a days, I don't believe there's any evidence for it, that is not based on spurious arguments, including the way the hole is shaped EXACTLY like the bottom of the puddle of water IN it. Is there something about intelligent design you would like explained? As in, is there something, for you, that makes you think that the only explanation is a supernatural one? An example that, for you, says THIS proves that there is intelligent design? Or would you prefer to tell me what you believe evolution means, and why it doesn't make sense to you?

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Old 12-04-2014, 09:55 PM #3723
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you believe in evolution, explain the cambrian explosion with a good answer? There are "missing links."
lol Yes there is plenty of evidence to believe in intelligent design, meaning, a God, or supernatural power created the universe, and everything in it, seen or unseen.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:22 PM #3724
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
If you believe in evolution, explain the cambrian explosion with a good answer? There are "missing links."
lol Yes there is plenty of evidence to believe in intelligent design, meaning, a God, or supernatural power created the universe, and everything in it, seen or unseen.
God is not "evidence". God is a construct used to explain things people do not understand. Science has been solving many of these puzzles over time, and, things that used to be from "god", like thunder and lightening, are now attributed to their actual causes (Not god).

The way to tell if something that looks simple proves something, is to substitute a random thing instead. For example:

Yes there is plenty of evidence to believe in intelligent design, meaning, a Unicorn, or Jackalope created the universe, and everything in it, seen or unseen.

Does that sound like it proves anything, or is evidence of anything?

If I instead said:

Yes there is plenty of evidence to believe in intelligent design, meaning, a big bang, or black hole created the universe, and everything in it, seen or unseen.

That doesn't prove anything either.






So, anyway:


The Cambrian explosion was, when first discovered, very interesting, as scientists had not yet found the fossils in older layers yet...and seeing a lot of fossils from multi-celled organisms in the Cambrian layer SEEMED to "come out of no where".

In fact, they found multi-celled organism fossils later on, and, they appeared to be the ancestors of those found in the newer Cambrian layers.




Summary:

So, that's what happened. They found a layer with a lot of fossils, had not yet found fossils in the older layers, then found them.





Those wishing to deceive people into thinking that this represents a "gap" or a "hole" in evolution, conveniently ignore the REST of the scientific data.

It would be like a scientist finding the skull of a creature, being able to tell from the teeth, etc, that it was a dinosaur, and trying to find the rest of the skeleton. He is interviewed and says something like "I found its head, but can't seem to find the body".

A week later he finds the rest of the skeleton, publishes the paper on it...

And the creationists, for decades afterwards, refer to the scientist who claimed to find a kind dinosaur that only had a head, but did not have a body.


Just like with science, when one discovery is made, it allows OTHER discoveries to be made too, and new inventions pop up that take advantage of all the new technology. So, in that rough time period, more and more multi-celled organisms evolved, all scrambling for a niche. Their ancestors were mostly soft bodied, and, soft bodied critters did not leave decent fossils, so, it took time to find them.


So, that's what happened. They found a layer with a lot of fossils, had not yet found fossils in the older layers, then found them.

Its not really that mysterious. There are, in reality, no parts that are missing that imply there's no evolution. On the contrary, the fossil record indicates evolution. Besides, if there IS a gap, in ANY information, it does NOT negate the entire sequence.


IE: OK, we have the gun, the ballistics show the bullet was fired from it, we recovered the bullet in the body, and the fingerprints of the accused are on the gun and trigger, and there was evidence of gunpowder residue on the accused hands, and, he was heard by everyone at the restaurant to shout "I am going to kill you" as he fired the gun at the deceased, just before the entire restaurant of people wrestled him to the ground and held him until the cops arrived.

BUT!!!! There is NO picture of the bullet actually STRIKING the victim! You have a GAP in your evidence!!!!! You have no case, and I move to dismiss these trumped up charges against my poor innocent client!



OK, so that it? You believe in evolution now?




Is there some other compelling evidence for you to share?

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Old 12-04-2014, 10:43 PM #3725
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

There are more convincing examples of evolution than the ones you stated. For instance, in the United Kingdom during its industrial revolution there was a moth that was all white. Because of the coal dust in the air the trees that the moth landed on had always had light colored bark. Now these trees had black colored bark and the birds had no problem finding and eating them. Now, some moths had a mutation in their DNA that gave them black wings. In the past, this was a disadvantage and these moths didn't survive to reproduce. But now, it was an advantage and the species all changed to the black colored wings. This is called the survival of the fittest. There are other examples as well. The viruses that replicate mutate all the time. If this mutation is favorable, it is passed along to the species and becomes a new phenotype. This usually adds a better way for the virus to get from host to host. It can also be a better way to fight off drugs that are detrimental to its ability to reproduce.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:43 PM #3726
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Richard Dawkins from Expelled...

Quote:
BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in Darwinian evolution.

DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.
Lol, well Aliens are intelligent

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Old 12-04-2014, 10:58 PM #3727
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Richard Dawkins from Expelled...



Lol, well Aliens are intelligent

~ LB
Well, if they were smart enough to travel to other planets, they certainly were well along in technology.

What's scary is that humans are reaching that point very soon, and we will no doubt find find our way into other solar systems and beyond.

As the sun will not last forever, and, assuming WE were going to not go extinct when the NEXT thing comes along to usurp us (I bet the dinosaurs' millions of years of dominance could still beat us, we barely have a 100k years or so in on this thing)...we WILL need to escape earth to avoid the sun killing us all, and then, WE will be those aliens.

With the dumbing down of some state's science curricula, we will of course be short of the type of people needed to advance and thrive.

If we can use real information about space to land on asteroids and so forth, and travel to distant stars in search of a new home....we have a shot.

If things need to rely on the math that allows TEACHING that light from stars was available within a week (OK, within 6 days, before resting...), and, the NEAREST star's light could never make it in that time frame...in reality...

...How in the WORLD would we be able to get to a star many light years away, when we TEACH that the stars are so close?

Reality would be a many many year journey. The Creationist Scientists would figure a week tops, pack some sammies and a cooler and send the colonists on their way.

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Old 12-04-2014, 11:10 PM #3728
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Dude, we gotta move!

Dumbing down the school system is bad m'kay.
Can't agree with you more. A major paradigm shift in science a society will be needed to even allow the development of technologies that would make this possible. Spam in a can on top of a pile of explosives isn't going to cut it.



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