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Old 12-03-2014, 03:10 PM #3681
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah, I probably would lie when my boss asked me to do something dishonest, but I wouldn't murder 'cause that doesn't give any pleasure.

I see you don't know much of the bible. I've read the entire bible through 6 times and many other times just ready parts of it. I'm familiar with it and can say your not. I believe the Bible is true.

This discussion is going nowhere. Let's stop. Everything I say someone refutes and everything they say I refute. Let's stop.

These are just my opinions-I'm not forcing them on anyone!



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Old 12-03-2014, 03:20 PM #3682
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Wink Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
The argument from design is one of the more easily debunked arguments that christian apologists have. My go to analogy is a puddle thinking the hole in the ground it fills must have been made for them because they fit into it perfectly.

The funny thing is these odds of probability are absolutely impossible to know. If you knew just a basic understanding of statistics you would see why this these claims are bogus from the start.

When determining the odds of probability you are simply are looking at the ratio of favorable results compared to possible results. Nothing more. The favorable results are given an assigned value by us. For example, take a deck of cards and shuffle them well. In a 4 player deal, the odds of being dealt all 13 spades is 1 in 635,013,550,600. Although this seems incredibly unlikely it happens. If you look across the table to your friend and see her hand is made up of all different suits and numbers in a somewhat lousy random hand. The odds of your friends hand is the EXACT same as your 13 spades. Every possible hand has the same odds and with enough deals the impossible becomes the inevitable.

So to compare and contrast this analogy to the creationists claims. Lets say being dealt all 13 spades represents life originating on earth by natural means. Lets also say they do their calculations and come up with a 1 in 635,013,550,600 chance like the card analogy. BUT... they are making it sound so incredible because they are describing it as if there was only ONE hand dealt ever. They pretend to somehow know life only had one opportunity to arise?


Why exactly on a planet that is billions of years old was there only this one shot at glory for life. In all actually every single natural event and phenomena could have been an opportunity for life. Every meteor or comet slamming into earth, every lightning strike in the primordial soup, billions and billions of hands of cards being dealt for billions of years. In other words when you remove the many creationist assumptions the seemingly impossible starts to take form as being quite possible.

But hey, it sells lots of videos and gives creationist all kinds of impressive sounding bullshit to spew on Youtube and at the pulpit.
The men and women doing these calculations know all this is BS yet report it as fact because they know most other people do NOT understand how probabilities are calculated. Educate yourself and question things. Look into it for yourselves.
Of course there wasn't just one time to have it done. But as much times as there was a possibility for life to become more advanced, so there was as much probability for it to be ruined. If you throw multicolored things into the air, it messes up. Will multiple tossings make them into a picture? No! There will be more opportunities to muck them up as well! It's the same with evolution. It is nearly impossible for it to happen for the reason that the slim chance that life could have spontaneously arisen and developed, there was an overwhelming chance it could not have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Then if that is what you say, isn't life hopeless? What is there to live for? Why are we here? If we all are just a process of random chance, then why
are you still living and do you have anything to live for?
I can't see how anyone can look at the facts, how relationships between certain animals and humans and everything fits so well together, I just don't see how it evolved............please continue on.
Amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
your characterization of evolution reveals your ignorance of it. if you really understood it, you'd never say it was "just a process of random chance". and because my life is IS FINITE, it has INFINITLY more value per year than a life that is INFINITE. In other words, I give my life meaning, I have not gone all in on a promise that I can't confirm until death.

basically all your agruements so far have been pretty garden-variety. I've heard them all before, and many more that you probably have not considered.

at least you have not said, "if we came from monkeys then how come there's still monkeys?"

because that's like asking, "If Americans immigrated from europe then how come there's still europeans?"

I predict willful ignorance will continue to be a big mental block in your life, but fear not, you are not alone, there are many that share the belief, which of course helps all these parties justify it to themselves

I speak from experience, as I used to believe more or less as you do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I don't think a person has to believe that they are not the process of natural development to feel that life itself is worth living.

Do adopted kids (random births, not wanted to happen, inconvenient, etc...) have a reason to live? Can they enjoy and appreciate life?

I think they can.

If for example, I exist because some rocks in space crashed into each other, and the debris eventually became our moon, and caused tides that washed potential nutrients between the two phases, leading to bacteria that lived in the oxygen free air (CO2, methane, etc...), which then lead to microbes that off gassed oxygen and consumed the prior atmosphere so earth lost its protective atmosphere and was instead bathed in toxic oxygen...and froze over....and then some microbes under the frozen shell evolved a way to metabolize oxygen, and consume enough of the toxic oxygen so the greenhouse effect could once again warm the planet and melt the ice, leading to a new set of organisms that metabolized oxygen, and gave of CO2, which allowed them more energy and the ability to grow more complex, energy dependent systems, and become multicelled, and then have organs, grow to enourmous size and rule the planet for millions of years, and then be wiped out by some combination of gamma ray bursts and metear strikes, etc, so that wee furry creatures would then have no competition, and be able to grow and thrive and and eventually type things in online posts about whether they think they need to feel created to appreciate their lives....then, I think THAT'S pretty special, and, I would NOT want to WASTE that opportunity to LIVE.

The analogy about a puddle of water looking at the hole in the ground it rests in, and thinking "This hole fits me PERFECTLY! It MUST have been made just for me by an intelligent creator...as, what are the ODDS that a hole of these EXACT dimensions was created by CHANCE?!"...seems to fit.

IE: If you were to ask what the odds of earth existing, with 20/20 hindsight, I'd say 100%.

The earth has had MANY different appearances...and, NONE of the prior ones worked for US, and, other creatures had to go extinct for our predecessors to have a fighting chance at surviving.

WE have only been around for a blink of an eye compared to say the dinosaurs, so its a bit conceited to assume we are the end point either.

So, the earth formed, and, in this formation that exists right now, we evolved to fit it, just like the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle.

So, what gives you hope?

Are you without hope if you were to find out that LIFE is the gift, and, appreciate it as the amazing phenomenon it is?

Or, are you the kind of person who is so terrified of ENDING that you need to pretend that when you die you keep going and spend eternity being rewarded for the few decades you were alive, or, punished for it?

Can you live because you CAN, or, because you are working on some sort of reward system for after you die?

Can you reconcile "Thou Shall Not Kill"....with god killing the first born?

Can you reconcile that with god not sinning?

Why bring plagues and kill the innocent children if GOD is BEGGING/NEGOTIATING with the Pharaoh to "Let" the people go?

Why not just kill the Pharaoh or turn him into a newt, etc, if you are all powerful and can do anything, and (AND have a plan for every one of those innocent children and bereaved parents who had their children murdered by god, so god could use it as leverage against a MAN)?

If god could speak to Moses, why could he not just TELL the Pharaoh that the jews are leaving, and that he'll turn the Pharaoh into a newt if he interferes?

Why would an all powerful supreme perfect being need to NEGOTIATE with a MAN in the first place? His PLAN for the Pharaoh and the Egyptians, etc, was to go through all this crap and get all those people killed, for nothing?

Really, that's the PERFECT plan?


So, anyway - How did it all evolve so it all fits together so well? Because the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle nestled into a hole...fitting perfectly.

We EVOLVED to fit the environment, and the other living things evolved to fit THEIR environments.

Its not about "How could a goat be so well adapted to leap about on cliffs on steep mountain sides, and how can a fish have gills to breath underwater?"

Its about why goats DON'T have gills and fish SUCK and leaping about cliff faces, etc....so the goats evolved to be agile climbers and the fish evolved to swim in the water.

Its not like some cosmic puzzle maker had to think, and say, OK, I have these goat things and these fish things, where should I put them...lets see, hmmm...we have a deep puddle, I'll put the goat in it, and a mountain to put the fish on! Perfect! There are no goats in the ocean (on purpose) because that's a terrible place for a goat. Its not because some intelligent being decided not to put them there.

If you think about what evolution REALLY IS, you would come to understand that it explains everything we see about adapting to environments (Flowing into the hole)

Take common examples, say dogs. We can take two dogs with traits we like, and breed them together, and get dogs with that trait, and then keep doing that until the trait is magnified.

In nature, the same thing is occurring. Natural mutations occur at fairly predictable rates for different species. Some species are slow, and some are faster, etc...but, its a pattern.

So if a snake is born with two heads, and, it HELPS the snake get food/find mates, etc...some factor which leads to that two headed snake breeding and increasing the odds for MORE two headed snakes...that mutation is kept and magnified, so eventually, there might be more two headed than one headed snakes...or, the two headed ones might find a niche in the environment where they can compete, and just exist there alone, etc.

If a scale were to have a gene mutate that lead to it being hollow and curled around itself, that would trap more air, and, might be lighter...and, that reptile might survive better, passing on that trait and, over time, that turned into feathers, so the creatures were able to survive more extreme temperatures, develop camouflage or attractive mating features, etc...and, eventually, some lizards for example that leap from branch to branch can go farther because of the feathers...and, that trait starts to get passed along.

If I have a kid who can fly...and he passes that gene for flight along to HIS kids, but, while flight is cool, you don't NEED it to live...there would be old school walkers like me, and, some cool kids who could fly.

So, there would be people who walked, and survived just fine as we were already successful...AND people who could fly, at the same time.

IE: I personally did not EVOLVE into a flying person...but SOME of my progeny DID. So, both walkers and flyers are both present, at the same time.

This is why there are monkeys and Monkees. SOME ancestors of the Monkees used to look more like monkeys...and, while the monkeys were adapted to the forests and jungles they evolved to fit into, the Monkees were not, and they needed an agent to survive instead of a jungle, etc. The Monkees evolved to fit a niche (A band like the Beatles only who'd work for cheap, etc...), and, well, monkeys could not do this, as well at least.

So, when the environment CHANGES, say after an ice age, meteor strike, volcanic eruptions, tectonic plate shifts, etc...a creature ADAPTED to that prior environment may not be able to deal with the changes, and, perish. Others might be able to hang on long enough to breed, and, the off spring are proportionally more likely to have the traits that allowed their parents to survive, and so on and so forth.

IE: The hole the puddle was in is run over by a tractor trailer, and goes from a round oval bottomed hole 2 feet across to a 6' long 1' wide rectangular trough with a tread pattern on the bottom...and the old water is splashed out by the tire....and, some evaporates, and some trickles back into the new hole...and some ends up in nearby holes as new puddles.

So, then, each new puddle looks at ITS hole, and exclaims "What are the odds that a hole that fits me PERFECTLY would happen by CHANCE?!"

And the answer is what you need to come to grips with to move on.


However, life isn't exactly a hole. There are many anthropic constants (if you want me to list 'em, I can) that would render life nearly impossible if not impossible once changed. Unlike a puddle, once those constants are changed, life becomes near impossible. It's a little like a puddle that would be destroyed once placed in any way but one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yeah, I probably would lie when my boss asked me to do something dishonest, but I wouldn't murder 'cause that doesn't give any pleasure.

I see you don't know much of the bible. I've read the entire bible through 6 times and many other times just ready parts of it. I'm familiar with it and can say your not. I believe the Bible is true.

This discussion is going nowhere. Let's stop. Everything I say someone refutes and everything they say I refute. Let's stop.

These are just my opinions-I'm not forcing them on anyone!
Uh, USAbro? Know you are passionate about this but that is a little wrong. Why would you lie if your boss asked you too?
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:28 PM #3683
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So I don't lose a job. I may or may not I'm just saying secular people do things that are considered wrong by Christians.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:30 PM #3684
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So you would lie as a secular person.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:37 PM #3685
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Yeah, I probably would lie when my boss asked me to do something dishonest, but I wouldn't murder 'cause that doesn't give any pleasure.

I see you don't know much of the bible. I've read the entire bible through 6 times and many other times just ready parts of it. I'm familiar with it and can say your not. I believe the Bible is true.

This discussion is going nowhere. Let's stop. Everything I say someone refutes and everything they say I refute. Let's stop.

These are just my opinions-I'm not forcing them on anyone!
OK, so you personally would only sin if it gave you pleasure?

You read the bible but don't remember it, or chose to ignore the many many many contradictions left by the sloppy editing of the stories. I read it many times, and do remember it. I have many bibles, from many faiths.

The difference is that I didn't cherry pick what was important or not, I read it all with the same weighting. I saw that inspiration and comfort was obviously one objective, and that myth building was another.

So I read many bibles and concluded that they could not be the word of god, if god were who he was supposed to be represented as in the bibles.

You read at least one bible a half dozen times or so, but chose the parts you liked, and ignored any conflicts or contradictions...deciding that it must be perfect for you to feel safe and secure in your faith, etc.



For example:

How Many Blind Men Did Jesus Heal on the Road from Jericho. and, we now know that GOD'S NAME is Dave?

Matthew 20:29: As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Jesus healed the two men in verse 34.

VS

Mark 10:46-47: Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (that is, the Son of Timaeus), was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

There was only one blind man, not two...but, at least god's name is still DAVE. Nazareth did not exist yet, so, no one would have actually said Jesus was from it. Its one of the towns that was confused with the name of the rebel group though.


So, how many blind men were there on the way to Jericho?

"The word of god" says there's one, and it ALSO says there's two.


Take out the disciples' statements about what is a sin and what is not, and find passages where GOD says, personally, what is allowed and what is not.

The 10 Commandments might count about as much as anything I think.

Of course, if you take out things attributed to the disciples, there's not much about Jesus in the bible...as they are the sole source of narration, so, if the disciples didn't tell the stories, there's nothing about Jesus. Its all about a disciple saying "And then Jesus blah blah blah", and that's all you know, is what THEY said happened, and, as the example above illustrates, they DISAGREE as to what happened.


So, that means you then have to CHOOSE which disciple you think was the most accurate, and, perhaps, you want a "Bible of Luke" or "Bible of Matthew", etc...as the individual desciples said "the word of god" was different from each other. So, if you want to believe that the bible is right, you have to decide how parts of it can contradict, as they can't BOTH be right.

So, if a disciple can be WRONG, that means anything they say could be wrong too...and therefore inaccurate.


If you called it "The Word of Mark" instead of "The Word of God", you could make more of a case for following it, but, there are quite a few disciples, and they are all attributed, hundreds of years after their deaths, by the catholic church, as having said things...and then you are TOLD that its the word of god...and, fall for it hook line and sinker.







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Old 12-03-2014, 03:49 PM #3686
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hopefully all your bibles don't say different things because read the last verses in Revelation.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:02 PM #3687
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Hopefully all your bibles don't say different things because read the last verses in Revelation.

(How many bibles did you read, and evaluate, to be SURE the ONE you refer to is actually the "right" bible?)




Last verses, where the angry Leprechaun essentially says that if you don't believe he exists, he will punish you.

The book of life thing taken from the tree of life thing.

So the Church, a few hundred years after Jesus was dead, added a section to go with their new Bible/Word of God propaganda product, that if you better believe the propaganda or bad things will happen, etc.

IE:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Translation: Copy this and mail it to ten other people. Someone you don't even know didn't pass this chain letter on to 10 other people, and they suffered a horrible agonizing death, and then an eternity of suffering by yet another immortal supernatural being, so, you better copy this chain letter and pass it along, or, suffer the same horrible fate.




(Pasted)



The following is an excerpt from Dr. Thomas Holland's Crowned With Glory, ©2000, used with permission.
Revelation 22:19 -"book of life" and the last six verses of Revelation 22

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

While the focus of this verse deals with the phrase "book of life" as opposed to "tree of life." the issue is deeper. The manuscript Codex 1r used by Desiderius Erasmus to produce his Greek New Testament is missing the last six verses of Revelation chapter twenty-two. It is thought that Erasmus took the Latin Vulgate and retranslated these verses back into Greek. [1] Assuming this hypothesis is true we must ask ourselves the following questions. First, if Erasmus did in fact make use of the Latin Vulgate to supply these last six verses, has the usage of the Latin corrupted the text? Second, was Codex 1r really the only Greek manuscript used by Erasmus for this passage?

Certainly the Latin Vulgate and the Greek Textus Receptus are similar in these last six verses. This, of course, would be natural if the Latin was based on early Greek manuscripts that correspond with the Textus Receptus. We must remember that most of the Greek manuscripts of the second, third, and fourth centuries have not survived the passage of time. However, the Vulgate and the Textus Receptus are not identical either. For example, the conclusion of Revelation 22:20 reads in the Receptus, Amen. Nai, erchou, kurie Iesou (Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus). The Latin reads, amen veni Domine Iesu (Amen come Lord Jesus). The Textus Receptus includes an additional affirmation nai (even so), an addition not found in either the Greek Critical Text or the Latin Vulgate.

If Erasmus did translate back into Greek from the Latin text, he did an astounding job. These six verses consist of one hundred thirty-six Greek words in the Textus Receptus, and one hundred thirty-two Greek words in the Critical Text. There are only eighteen textual variants found within these verses when the two texts are compared. [2] Such textual variants, both in number and nature, are common throughout the New Testament between these two Greek texts. For example, the preceding six verses, Revelation 22:10-15, have fourteen textual variants which are of the same nature, and in Revelation 21:3-8 we find no fewer than twenty textual variants. One would expect, therefore, a greater number of textual variants if Erasmus was translating from the Latin back into Greek, and yet the two texts are extremely close. Even if he did translate from the Latin into Greek it would have no bearing on the doctrine of biblical preservation. Preservation simply demands that God has kept and preserved the words throughout the generations from the time of their inception until this present day and even beyond. It does not demand that these words be preserved in the original languages only.

However, this brings us to our second question. Did Erasmus really translate the Latin back into Greek? Textual scholar Herman C. Hoskier argued that Erasmus did not do this. Instead, he suggests that Erasmus used other Greek manuscripts such as 2049 (which Hoskier calls 141), and the evidence seems to support this position. [3] Manuscript 2049 contains the reading found in the Textus Receptus including the textual variant of Revelation 22:19. To this we can also add the Greek manuscript evidence of 296, and the margin of 2067.

Additionally, the Greek text copied by Erasmus in Revelation 22:16-21 reflects a consistency that is found elsewhere in the Textus Receptus, suggesting that it was copied from other Greek manuscripts and not translated from the Latin back into Greek. In Revelation 22:16 we find the phrase tou dabid (the David) in the Textus Receptus as opposed to the Critical Text's dauid (David). While the English would translate the two identically, it is interesting to note that in Revelation 3:7 we find the same thing. In that passage the Textus Receptus places the definite article before the name of David just as it does in Revelation 22:16, while the Critical Text does not use the definite article before David's name in either passage.

To counter this it has been noted that within the text of Erasmus at Revelation 22:16-21 there are a few unusual spellings, for example elthe (come) instead of the normal erchou (come). This suggests that Erasmus was copying from a Greek manuscript and not translating from the Latin. Erasmus, it should be remembered, was one of the greatest scholars and thinkers of his day. He was fluent in Greek and several other languages. He would have known that the normal New Testament word for come is not elthe but is instead erchou. In fact, Erasmus used erchou in Revelation 22:7; 22:12; and even in 22:20. There must have been a reason for Erasmus to depart from the normal form of the word and write elthe in 22:17. Moreover, the Latin for come in 22:17 is the same Latin word in 22:20, veni. This further suggests that Erasmus was not really translating from the Latin, but was using an additional Greek manuscript other than Codex 1r.

Likewise, there is textual evidence for the reading book of life instead of tree of life. As noted above, the reading is found in a few Greek manuscripts. It is the main reading among the Latin witnesses. The phrase book of life is also the reading of the Old Bohairic version. Finally, it is the reading found in the writings of Ambrose (397 AD), Bachiarius (late fourth century), Primasius (552 AD) and Haymo (ninth century).

One must also consider the internal evidence. The phrase tree of life appears seven times in the Old Testament and three times in the New Testament. In these verses we are told we will be able to eat of this tree, and that this tree of Eden will reappear in Eternity. The idea that one can have their share taken away from the tree of life seems abnormal to Scripture. However, the phrase book of life appears seven other times in the New Testament (Phil.4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; and 21:27). In each case we find the book of life either contains or does not contain names, or names are blotted out of it. Therefore, the phrase, "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life," is extremely consistent with the biblical texts.

As can be seen from this text, the warning is ominous. While one may understand this passage to apply only to the book of Revelation, it is clear from other passages that the same is true of the whole of Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2; Proverbs 30:6). When applied to the verses discussed in this chapter we must conclude that somewhere in the process of transmission someone either added to the text or omitted from it. There's the rub, and it should be taken seriously. Scholarship is a noble and honorable profession. However, it ceases to be both if it seeks to usurp the authority of the Lord God. After all, our commitment does not so much rest with our scholarship as it does with the ultimate Scholar.



[1] Erika Rummel, Erasmus' Annotations on the New Testament: From Philologist to Theologian (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1986), 93. It is claimed that Erasmus openly declares in the Annotations of his 1516 edition (page 675) that he "ex nostris Latinis supplevimus Graeca" (supplied the Greek from the Latin). Thus the claim that last six verses of Revelation chapter twenty-two were retranslated from the Vulgate into Greek. However, the reprint of the 1516 edition of Erasmus does not contain this phrase on page 675 of his Annotations, which is the conclusion of his notes on the book of Revelation. Nor is such a phrase found elsewhere in that edition.




So, who's word?

Who's chain letter is the RIGHT CHAIN LETTER?




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Old 12-03-2014, 04:29 PM #3688
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Back to the cosmic puddle:

No, its a good analogy due to the CONCEPT of life evolving HERE (THIS HOLE), so to be amazed that we are adapted to live HERE, as opposed to being adapted to living on Mars...is missing the point.

Its EXPECTED that if the air contains too much oxygen for creatures who were adapted to the methane and CO2 the earth was covered with - that a mutation that allowed the microbes to USE those gases would be advantageous, and, the creatures inheriting this trait would flourish.

WHY are there microbes that are KILLED by exposure to oxygen in the air, AND ones that can use it to live?

Because the PUDDLE used to be in a hole that was w/o oxygen....and some microbes mutated and started MAKING oxygen....which killed the others that it was toxic to...so only organisms that were sheltered from the air survived the toxic gas, and, still do....even thought he hole the puddle was it got run over by the O2 truck.

When the hole was changed by the O2 truck, the new O2 metabolizing microbes flowed in and made a new puddle in the new hole.

The hole changed, and, the survivors flowed in and made a puddle of water in its shape....IE: They adapt to the hole, vs the hole being made "knowing what shape to be" so that a body of water with its shape would then plop in.

There's a hole, and, either things flow in (The Atlantic Ocean, etc...), or they don't (The moon).

The moon was a lousy "hole" for a puddle of life to form in, so, it didn't.

The earth had holes that would work for some things and not others...so, it did, for some, and, not for others.

Hence no fish living on Mt. Everest and no whales in the desert, no camels in the Marianas Trench, etc. There's a hole, but only SOME critters CAN flow into it...and, if the hole is CHANGED (Volcanic eruption, tectonic plate movement, O2 truck, etc...), some critters can't adapt, and perish, and, some do, and pass on the traits that helped to do it.


A frog would be retarded to choose to live where the water all freezes over for months at a time. But if its warm at first, the frogs are fine. Later, if the weather patterns change, and the tropical paradise becomes frozen over periodically, and, SOME frogs mutated the ability to store excess glucose in their blood stream to act as an antifreeze, so ice crystals did not form and destroy their cells, they would "thaw out" after the freeze, and, pass on that trait.

So, a frog "diabetes" type mutation happens to allow frogs to be frozen for a long time, all winter, and then, in the spring, thaw out and breed, etc.

The ones w/o diabetes died when frozen, and were no longer filling the puddle.

So they evolved for one ecosystem, and when it changed, some were able to adapt.


Same for people with sickle cell anemia, they're the only healthy ones if there's malaria transmitting mosquitoes around....but, in a different hole, they are the sick ones.

A mutation that leads to one medical problem provided protection from another...and, the trade off was worth it in some holes, and not worth it in others.


This is ONE of the reasons people go on and on about preserving genetic diversity. YOU DON'T KNOW which mutations are going to be valuable IF THINGS CHANGE.

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Old 12-03-2014, 06:02 PM #3689
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Problem is that o2 is needed for combustion.
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:37 PM #3690
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Problem is that o2 is needed for combustion.
OK, so why is that a problem?

And of all the relevant points potentially discussed, why did you pick that particular issue as a problem?

O2 available for combustion was OK by me...I like combustion. It gets me to work and home faster, etc.

Evolution solved the problem of critters giving OFF toxic O2 and freezing the dang planet when we lost the CO2 and methane cover because the dang critters ate it all. Evolving the ability to USE the O2, and give off a greenhouse gas to rewarm the planet (CO2), is what gave us our present atmosphere. It ALSO gave us the ability to burn stuff, which is sweet, especially if you like lasers, etc.

We live an a pretty nice slice of time on earth, between cataclysmic events, and when the earth is not too hot/on fire or too cold/frozen for us, etc. We do need to understand that those conditions WILL CHANGE. The sun will eventually start to swell and it will get hotter and hotter, and as it swells, it will eventually have its outer layer OUTSIDE of our orbit, and, well, it won't be at all pleasant.

So, If I have a choice of how to help my descendants, and the rest of humanity, and perhaps even the entire earth genome, etc...and somehow dodge that swelling red ball of fire...its going to involve science and invention and figuring out how to get to to ANOTHER planet that we can then adapt to with any luck....and it will not involve begging imaginary friends to spare us.






I'm starting to get the idea that you are out of gas?




On another point as long as we're digressing...

My kid had a blanket he used to drag around with him all the time. It made him feel safe and secure, and, he'd get terrified at the idea of losing it/having it taken away.

He was getting a bit old, my wife and I thought, to keep the thing with him all the time, as nursery school was coming, and we really didn't want the blanket going there.

My wife and I argued about whether it was more important to wean him of the blanket, or, to just let him keep it because it made him feel better.


He was terrified of not having that blanket, and no amount of logic or reason could get him to let it go...it was just too scary.


What do you think, is it too traumatic to lose the blanket, and just let him keep it, or, should we keep trying to convince him he doesn't really need it to be secure?

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Old 12-03-2014, 08:50 PM #3691
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Made me laugh

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Old 12-03-2014, 09:08 PM #3692
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I want back in if nobody minds.

Try not to get discouraged USAbro, about evolution and some of the issues that are being brought up.

Here is a quote from "The New Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible" in the book of Genesis section. "If readers recgonize, for example, that creation accounts are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be, but rather theological texts that explain the world as it is, then readers avoid misinterpreting the text and forcing it to say things it does not convey."

And again in words not my own...

The Bible is infallible... meaning it contains all that is necessary for salvation. But, if you say it is inerrant... meaning it is without any mistakes or variance in interpretation... I would have to ask which translation you are talking about. Linguistics pose problems when Scripture is interpreted. Most fundamentalist Christians appeal to the King James Version. But, things get lost in translation. There are some Greek and Hebrew words we have no perfect English word for that causes the meaning to be somewhat misunderstood.
Thankfully, we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us. But we also have the greater conversation of the Church down through the centuries.

We do not worship the book. The book is only the word of God in that it contains and points to the real WORD of God... Jesus the Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. John chapter 1
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:23 PM #3693
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I want back in if nobody minds.

Try not to get discouraged USAbro, about evolution and some of the issues that are being brought up.

Here is a quote from "The New Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible" in the book of Genesis section. "If readers recgonize, for example, that creation accounts are neither histories nor modern scientific accounts of how things came to be, but rather theological texts that explain the world as it is, then readers avoid misinterpreting the text and forcing it to say things it does not convey."

And again in words not my own...

The Bible is infallible... meaning it contains all that is necessary for salvation. But, if you say it is inerrant... meaning it is without any mistakes or variance in interpretation... I would have to ask which translation you are talking about. Linguistics pose problems when Scripture is interpreted. Most fundamentalist Christians appeal to the King James Version. But, things get lost in translation. There are some Greek and Hebrew words we have no perfect English word for that causes the meaning to be somewhat misunderstood.
Thankfully, we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us. But we also have the greater conversation of the Church down through the centuries.

We do not worship the book. The book is only the word of God in that it contains and points to the real WORD of God... Jesus the Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. John chapter 1
Good point!

I tried to tell him its not history...and that its meant to inspire, and that it contains not just poor translations, but actual contradictions as to who was where and did what, etc.

If you ignore the details and focus on the message, its a far more useful book.

If the translations had been done, or even the original material, at the time the events were happening, it would be far easier to have gotten it right, but after all, hundreds of years after it all happened, the exhausting work of trying to write it all as a story, and piece together all the notes and drafts and transcripts...was really quite a chore.

I mean, with all those hand written pages, and no concordance to go back and check things...it must have been a nightmare.

Its too bad there's no versions of it until hundreds of years later, and no "original" version to compare to with modern translation techniques and expertise.

The closest they have to "originals" are the draft versions kept by the church, which include stories left out entirely in versions newer than a few hundred years, and no mention of some newer stories added later by the church.

The church decided which sections to keep in, which to delete, and what to add so as to make the stories better/more inspiring or even help to explain earlier inconsistencies.


When for example, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, and obtained by the Church, they spent decades studying them, and would not allow other scholars to see them without incredible vetting. Any of them allowed had to promise to wait a certain period before publishing findings, and all finding were vetted by the church. Photographs indicated some of the sections they seem to have somehow damaged so as to make them no longer readable, but not all...but, it was clear there were also sections that were in the original collection that were simply later missing. All missing sections seem to involve things that were potentially damaging to the church. If a scholar did publish anything about the scrolls that conflicted dogma, the church launched a campaign to discredit them...despite having determined their providence in the field to allow them to look at it in the first place, etc.

When the rest of the world all but sued for access to the archeological find...the church finally allowed access. But, as most dogmatic issues, it just didn't matter, as those who have faith are not interested in potentially conflicting evidence...they believe, period, no matter what...and the people who didn't believe already didn't believe, and didn't need proof to continue their disbelief.

Essentially as in this thread.



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Old 12-03-2014, 09:35 PM #3694
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nice point on the translation Duke. Much can be lost or added in the process.

Teej, Can you make a handkerchief out the blanket? So brutal, mine was blue. Eventually it does become unnecessary.

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Old 12-03-2014, 09:40 PM #3695
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Nice point on the translation Duke. Much can be lost or added in the process.

Teej, Can you make a handkerchief out the blanket? So brutal, mine was blue. Eventually it does become unnecessary.

~ LB
Hmmm, an idea.

I'll check it out.
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:47 PM #3696
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

First Council of Nicaea, interesting point in religious history. Nice way for a failing Roman Empire to shift gears and through the use of religious propaganda maintain control in a "new" way

How many faithful monks were killed re-editing the Bible? We'll never know, history is written by the victor.

Teej, nice that you are open minded. Kids are really smart, smarter than us in some ways. They just need time to process all this new data.

~ LB
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